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Thread: Sharpening Questions and Waterstone Selection

  1. #16
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    Chris Schwarz made that chart, and it's in an Excel spreadsheet on the Popular Woodworking website. I converted it into a PDF a while ago and posted it here.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Green View Post
    Possible problems?:

    1) Technique sucks. I can't get the plane iron bevels flat freehanding them. The bevels are too thin. Need more practice and/or a guide. No matter how hard I try, it also seems like the chisels were rocking just a minute bit, which is probably all it takes to ruin the edge.
    As far as the chisels go, and maybe even the plane blades, the bevel probably has a bit of a convexity, which is leading to that rocking feeling that you noticed. And if you noticed it, it's there. Trust your senses.

    There are two ways of getting rid of this. The first is to use a grinder and put a hollow grind on the bevel, which will also make it trivial to feel when you have the bevel flat on your sharpening surface.

    The second is to use a honing guide of some sort. That Veritas MKII that you just ordered will do just fine.

    I'm a big fan of free hand sharpening, and even I use one of the above techniques when I wind up with a tool where I feel like I can't keep the bevel on the waterstone.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Zahid Naqvi View Post
    Justin, I have used SS (Scary Sharp) for several years until recently when I switched to Shaptons in order to learn freehand sharpening.

    For scary sharp 1500 is not fine enough, you need to at least get in the 4000-6000 range to start shaving. I used the LV micro abrasive sheets. The green sheet is about 9000 grit. They will give you a razor edge to match any other sharpening technique. I also used a honing guide, and I would recommend the same for you as scarysharpening free hand require some skill. Using a honing guide takes the skill factor out of the equation. If you can't wait for shipping through LV you can get higher grit sandpaper from automobile parts stores (Napa, Autozone etc.)

    Also, if you decide to go the stones route I would recommend Shapton water stones, simply based on the fact that I have them they are superb in every way. I would suggest you try the a sandpaper in the 6000 grit range before you give up on SS.
    No, this is not correct. You're comparing apples to oranges. A 1,500 grit sandpaper is definitely fine enough for scary sharp; it's probably equivalent to a 6,000 grit waterstone or thereabouts. The grit of sandpaper and the grit of waterstones is NOT equivalent. You can find lots of charts online showing the difference.

    As to the original question:

    1. A beginner should DEFINITELY start out using a honing jig. The Veritas jig is great, the Eclipse will work as well. Do NOT try to start out free-handing. You'll just get frustated. Later, free-handing will come naturally.

    2. Pick ONE of the DVDs mentioned, Charlesworth or Cosman. It doesn't matter which, but don't get both! If you practice using ONE method, you will get the results you're looking for almost immediately.

    3. It doesn't matter what kind of stones you use. Norton is great, lots of people like the Shaptons, I'm sure King would work also. The DVDs will tell you about flattening the stones and so forth.

    If you get ONE of the DVDs and use a honing jig, you'll be fine.

  4. #19
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    I never used a honing jig. I don't know if they existed when I started. Free handed will develop naturally if you develop the eye to pay attention to blade angles. That and other abilities you must develop will ultimately determine if you have the intrinsic potential to become a good craftsman.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbur Pan View Post
    Chris Schwarz made that chart, and it's in an Excel spreadsheet on the Popular Woodworking website. I converted it into a PDF a while ago and posted it here.
    Thanks for the sitation Wilbur. I was pretty sure of it coming from here some how. If you had put your name somewhere on it, I would have known.

    jim

  6. #21
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    Side Sharpening

    I side sharpen my irons and chisels with scary sharp and it works great! Harrelson Stanley has a video on it you can rent. It is harder to round over the leading edge with this technique. 1500 wet or dry sandpaper is a fine enough grit to make your edge scary, indeed! Good luck and as you see there are as many opinions as there are............people!!!

  7. Please read here http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/M...egory_Code=C3M
    I have these micro abrasive films and they work quite well, you can use them with water or oil as a lubricant. The big adventage of these films is that the water adheres the film firmly to the glass, the ordinary wet and dry silicon carbide paper do not adhere so well to the glass. get the 15 microns (1000x waterstone), 5 microns (4000x waterstone) and 0.5 microns (around 12000 waterstone). I also have the MKII Veritas guide and the eclipse, I use the Veritas most of the time, I leave the eclipse for cambered blades. I have some waterstones but I do not use them.
    Alejandro

  8. #23
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    Be advised that if you use oil on a stone,it can be a real pain to go back to water. I know some will argue the point,but I prefer to just use my detergent/water mix. I actually also add a squirt of water based cutting fluid,like Aquacut,but it might be hard to obtain locally,and I don't think it matters an awful lot,anyway.

  9. #24
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    Well, I folded and ordered the two spyderco stones as well. I know have more money invested in sharpening than I do the tools to be sharpened!

  10. #25
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    I think you are getting some kind of weird/conflicting results. Some seem to think the shave test goes out the window once the included angle gets too large (like a bevel up blade ground with a high secondary bevel). Are you sharpening higher than 30 degrees?

    One question that hasn't been asked yet...
    What's is your goal? Want to shave, get a straight razor. Want to chop mortises, don't sweat any further than 600-1000g. The only reason for ultra-sharp on the chisels is for paring and detail work. For all other types of abuse you will find yourself crying as your perfect shaving hone job gets beat back in the first 5 minutes. Krenov has a good quote on too much time spent sharpening, basically sharpen to the extent you need to do the work at hand.

    Same goes for plane irons. A scrub can be put to work right off the grinder. A heavily cambered jack can work quite well only honed up to 1000g. Jointers and smoothers should get more attention with your favorite finish smoother being the one I would fuss over. Shop time is valuable, don't waste too much trying to make your face appear on the back of every metal surface in it

    If you can get a thin plane iron sharp enough to shave, then a thick blade chisel with a hollow grind should be a breeze. That is a mystery to me. I still struggle keeping my hands steady while doing plane irons. The only time rocking is really an issue is if you don't actually get to the edge you are working. If you work it until you get a burr you should be good to go to the next grit.
    Quote Originally Posted by James Carmichael View Post
    I suspect family members are plotting an intervention.

  11. #26
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    It's a mystery to me as well. I would think the thicker bevel would be easier to keep flat. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the chisels were kept at a more consistent angle than the plane blades, but the results spoke for themselves...

    I played around a little more last night and added some water with a drop of soap to the wet/dry paper and was able to get all of the chisels I played with to shave at 1500. Not shave as nicely as I'd like, but I'm working on that.

    I agree that shop time is very valuable. That said, since I'm a beginner, I don't mind fooling around for hours at night for a few weeks or so figuring out this sharpening thing and getting all of the planes in shape, etc. Even if I'm sharpening planes that don't need the same level of attention. I want to have this skill developed before I go drop some money on some nicer wood than pine.

  12. #27
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    OK, Justin - Forget all of the "which jig" and "which honing stone" for a minute. Doug's trying to diagnose the actual problem, as will I. Some questions/comments:

    First comment - do not shave your forearm with a blade (or any other part of your body). The test is deceptive in that it matters how thick your hair is (some of us are more hairy than a gorrilla, some less so), what the blade angle is, and most important of all, it's irrelevant to the need. If you want to figure out how sharp your blade is, get a piece of softwood like white pine or basswood, and try to cut a shaving off of the end of that. If the grain on the end crumbles, the blade is either not sharp, or is at too high of an angle.

    I'm serious about this - no beginner should ever be told to try to shave with an unguarded blade. I've seen people take off a large, ugly hunk of skin doing this.

    Second Question/Comment - Do you have a grinder, and if so, are you hollow grinding the bevel of the chisels/plane blades? This isn't absolutely necessary to free-hand sharpening, but it makes it worlds easier. If your blade bevels are not hollow ground, then you will have to very precisely hold the chisel/plane blade at an angle slightly steeper than the bevel and put a small micro-bevel on it.

    Third Question/Comment - Are you drawing the blade towards you (away from the cutting edge) or pushing it away? Generally speaking, the scary sharp method requires that you pull the blade toward you because otherwise you'll cut the paper, but since you say you're a beginner, I figured it's worth asking.

    4th Question/Comment - This is fairly critical. You do need to progress up through the grits to flatten the back of a chisel/plane blade. However, you don't need to do this with the bevel unless it's nicked or really badly scored. In fact, this may be working against you. The more strokes you put on the bevel, the greater the chance that'll you'll heavily round the cutting edge. Even if you get the back and the very tip of the bevel to meet at a sharp corner, you may well have changed the effective cutting angle up into the 50 degree range, and that's not going to feel very sharp, either against your arm or against wood.

    Take a magnifying glass and look at the very edge. If you don't have one, go spend $4 at the drugstore, you'll be glad you did. Look closely at the edge - a properly sharpened chisel blade should have one position where the overhead light gets reflected into your face, and then winks out. If you get that shiny, bright line reflected back at you at the very tip over a small range of angles, you've rounded the very edge.

    If this is the case, go back to your coarse stone and flatten the bevel all the way to the tip (or if you're grinding, grind it again until you get a burr on the backside) - the bevel angle should measure in the 25 - 30 degree range. Once you've done this, set out your finest sandpaper, hold the bevel down to the paper, and slightly raise the chisel handle, lock your wrists, and move your body back from the legs up to drag the chisel towards you about 6 inches. Unless your sandpaper is very worn, this is all that is necessary to put a very tiny, very bright, reflective and smooth edge on the very tip (confirm this with your magnifying glass).

    Now, assuming that you've flattened the back of the chisel correctly all the way out to the edge, you should be able to run your finger from somewhere in the middle of the back off of the edge of the chisel and feel a very small burr. If you don't, it's probable that you didn't quite get the flatness all the way out to the edge.

    Nevertheless, the chisel should be quite sharp - perhaps even dangerously so. Let us know how you do.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Keller NC View Post
    OK, Justin - Forget all of the "which jig" and "which honing stone" for a minute. Doug's trying to diagnose the actual problem, as will I. Some questions/comments:

    First comment - do not shave your forearm with a blade (or any other part of your body). The test is deceptive in that it matters how thick your hair is (some of us are more hairy than a gorrilla, some less so), what the blade angle is, and most important of all, it's irrelevant to the need. If you want to figure out how sharp your blade is, get a piece of softwood like white pine or basswood, and try to cut a shaving off of the end of that. If the grain on the end crumbles, the blade is either not sharp, or is at too high of an angle.

    I'm serious about this - no beginner should ever be told to try to shave with an unguarded blade. I've seen people take off a large, ugly hunk of skin doing this.
    Good advice... I do also play with some of the chisels to see how they pare end grain pine. Some take a bit of force, some actually make curlies out of the end grain.



    Second Question/Comment - Do you have a grinder, and if so, are you hollow grinding the bevel of the chisels/plane blades? This isn't absolutely necessary to free-hand sharpening, but it makes it worlds easier. If your blade bevels are not hollow ground, then you will have to very precisely hold the chisel/plane blade at an angle slightly steeper than the bevel and put a small micro-bevel on it.
    I do have a grinder, but the tool rests that came with the grinder aren't flat or square. It's a Delta 8" variable speed. Any grinding is done with a cup of water handy for dipping after each pass. As of now, I've tried to hollow grind a few chisels freehand, and this seems to work ok, but the hollow grind isn't too deep as they're 8" wheels. Because the plane blades are so much thinner and the tool rests aren't square, I've not attempted to hollow grind a thin Stanley iron.

    Third Question/Comment - Are you drawing the blade towards you (away from the cutting edge) or pushing it away? Generally speaking, the scary sharp method requires that you pull the blade toward you because otherwise you'll cut the paper, but since you say you're a beginner, I figured it's worth asking.
    I was careful to pull the blade once I got to the 800 grits and above on both the plane irons and the chisels, for the very reason you mentioned, I would occasionally tear the paper. To be honest, on more coarse grits, I was going back and forth.

    4th Question/Comment - This is fairly critical. You do need to progress up through the grits to flatten the back of a chisel/plane blade. However, you don't need to do this with the bevel unless it's nicked or really badly scored. In fact, this may be working against you. The more strokes you put on the bevel, the greater the chance that'll you'll heavily round the cutting edge. Even if you get the back and the very tip of the bevel to meet at a sharp corner, you may well have changed the effective cutting angle up into the 50 degree range, and that's not going to feel very sharp, either against your arm or against wood.
    Good point.

    Take a magnifying glass and look at the very edge. If you don't have one, go spend $4 at the drugstore, you'll be glad you did. Look closely at the edge - a properly sharpened chisel blade should have one position where the overhead light gets reflected into your face, and then winks out. If you get that shiny, bright line reflected back at you at the very tip over a small range of angles, you've rounded the very edge.

    If this is the case, go back to your coarse stone and flatten the bevel all the way to the tip (or if you're grinding, grind it again until you get a burr on the backside) - the bevel angle should measure in the 25 - 30 degree range. Once you've done this, set out your finest sandpaper, hold the bevel down to the paper, and slightly raise the chisel handle, lock your wrists, and move your body back from the legs up to drag the chisel towards you about 6 inches. Unless your sandpaper is very worn, this is all that is necessary to put a very tiny, very bright, reflective and smooth edge on the very tip (confirm this with your magnifying glass).

    Now, assuming that you've flattened the back of the chisel correctly all the way out to the edge, you should be able to run your finger from somewhere in the middle of the back off of the edge of the chisel and feel a very small burr. If you don't, it's probable that you didn't quite get the flatness all the way out to the edge.

    Nevertheless, the chisel should be quite sharp - perhaps even dangerously so. Let us know how you do.
    I'm not getting consistent burrs yet. On some, but not all. I also use a felt tipped marker to mark the back and bevel to see if I'm leaving any spots. I've noticed on many of the chisels that the back is slightly concave, leaving ink in the center of the back, so I continued to flatten until all of the ink was removed.

    Thanks for the tip. I'm probably not as frustrated as the initial post sounded, I'm definitely enjoying the learning process and I'm much further along on everything else because of the help I've received here. Thanks to everyone, yet again!

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Green View Post
    I also use a felt tipped marker to mark the back and bevel to see if I'm leaving any spots. I've noticed on many of the chisels that the back is slightly concave, leaving ink in the center of the back, so I continued to flatten until all of the ink was removed.
    No need to do that, all you need is to make sure the area just behind the edge is all flat. Having a concave back on a chisel is a good thing because it requires less work to get the area behind the edge all flat and shiny. This is how the Japanese chisels are made, with a much pronounced concavity at the back.
    The means by which an end is reached must exemplify the value of the end itself.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Green View Post
    Well, I folded and ordered the two spyderco stones as well. I know have more money invested in sharpening than I do the tools to be sharpened!
    That is a revolting development indeed. Better hurry up and buy some more tools.

    jim

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