Sharpening Questions and Waterstone Selection

[Justin Green]

Ha! This was after visiting a few auto stores locally and not being able to locate any sandpaper finer than 1500.

As an update, though, went back to the 400 grit and worked the chisel through to 1500 using pull strokes only, and it was sharper. Went and did a #4 smoother blade the same way. It was pretty sharp as well, but I still got tear-out on a red oak scrap that I had laying around. It planes the pine fine, but the oak - not so good.

[David Keller NC]

Justin - Red oak's not what you want to evaluate the sharpness of a blade. The end grain is really hard, so what often happens is the blade chatters a bit on the end grain, which looks like tear out. Also, you want white pine to evaluate this - yellow pine is too hard (same issue as the red oak). If you don't have any, a board of white pine at Home Depot's pretty cheap.

Don't neglect getting a magnifying glass - it's extraordinarily helpful in diagnosing sharpening problems, and it's dirt cheap.

From the standpoint of hollow grinding - an 8" diameter wheel is just fine to give you what you want. I typically use a Tormek, which has about a 10" wheel. All you're looking for here is to give you two points on the bevel to rest the chisel against the surface of your honing medium. And you can start the hone after the grind on your finest stone/grit - I regularly go straight from the Tormek to an 8000 grit waterstone, at least on the bevel.

After about 3 or 4 strokes on the waterstone, I see a very bright, polished line on both the very back of the hollow grind and the edge, which indicates that I've polished those two points.

By the way - the burr left behind after polishing on the 8000 grit stone is very fine indeed. You can feel it with your fingertip, but only just. Generally, I will draw the chisel back from off the 8000 grit stone to across the stone (once only) to remove this burr.

[Justin Green]

I didn't clarify, but I chucked up the oak in the face vise - a piece about 8" long and planed the edge. I did test the chisels on the end grain of my SYP workbench, and they did well, makeing little curly shavings. Pulling back instead of backwards and forwards seems to have solved a lot of the issues. I still am not honing any of the edges because I lack sandpaper fine enough or a stone (on the way). Even the newer model Buck Brothers chisels took a pretty good edge this way and seemed to stay pretty sharp after shaving off some end grain pine.

I did have a magnifying glass at the house (built in light as well!) I had a lot of trouble getting the thing egde to stop reflecting a little strip of light, but I got there on the chisels and plane irons by backing up to 500 grit and starting over. Again, none of these are getting honed at this point while I'm waiting for the finer stones. I do have some green polishing compound I might try on some scrap leather I have just for grins.

Most of the tools I have were bought WELL used and need a lot of work to get the backs flat and polished. Many have deep scratches on the backs, but I'm eventually getting there.

Thanks again for taking the time to give advice. It's very helpful.

[David Keller NC]

"Pulling back instead of backwards and forwards seems to have solved a lot of the issues. I still am not honing any of the edges because I lack sandpaper fine enough or a stone (on the way)."

Indeed, trying to go backwards and forwards is a leading cause of dubbing (rounding over) an edge for a beginner. It's even tougher to do without rounding the edge on sandpaper, though it's still not trivial on a fine-grit honing stone.

By the way - if you have a Woodcraft or other dedicated WW store in your area, they'll have some very fine grit aluminum oxide or silicon carbide sandpaper (both work well, btw, it's just that the paper backing on the silicon carbide will hold together longer when wet). 2000 grit would be more than fine enough for the final honing, though in my shop I would strop an edge after that.

Regarding stropping, be cautious. There's no easier or quicker way to restore an edge to beyond razor sharp in a shop, but there's also no easier way to round the edge, either. Like anything else, it takes a bit of practice.

By the way, if you want the ultimate test of sharpness, a really, really sharp chisel ground at 25 degrees will easily cleanly cut a piece of paper lengthwise with just the weight of the chisel. Sharpness on this scale can't be assessed by light magnification - it takes an electron microscope to see the defects in the edge. While I do occasionally use this test to diagnose how well my sharpening is going, I don't expect to keep something that sharp in the woodshop - it's not necessary even for carving tools (that need to be a lot sharper than a plane blade).

[Jim Koepke]

From the standpoint of hollow grinding - an 8" diameter wheel is just fine to give you what you want. I typically use a Tormek, which has about a 10" wheel. All you're looking for here is to give you two points on the bevel to rest the chisel against the surface of your honing medium. And you can start the hone after the grind on your finest stone/grit - I regularly go straight from the Tormek to an 8000 grit waterstone, at least on the bevel.

Having a hollow grind does make it much easier to "feel" when the tool is properly set on a stone.

A flat bevel requires more psychic abilities it seems. I always look for the fluid squeeze out when working on stones. On water stones, the fluid from in front of the blades will climb the back of the blade. Once this is happening, care is needed to not lift the blade any higher or it will dig into the stone. You probably don't need to ask how I know.

I did have a magnifying glass at the house (built in light as well!) I had a lot of trouble getting the thing egde to stop reflecting a little strip of light, but I got there on the chisels and plane irons by backing up to 500 grit and starting over. Again, none of these are getting honed at this point while I'm waiting for the finer stones. I do have some green polishing compound I might try on some scrap leather I have just for grins.

Thanks again for taking the time to give advice. It's very helpful.

When one teaches, two learn. -- Chinese proverb

The little spider web of reflection is more pronounced on plane blades. This is because if you plane an edge, the most wear is likely to occur in the middle of the blade. With chisels, the action is usually taking place across the whole width of the blade. With the blade being slightly cupped, one has to get past the already sharp areas at the edges that support the blade and keep the center from contacting the abrasive.

There are different theories on how a plane blade should be sharpened. Some like to camber the blades so the center cuts a touch deeper than the edges. This is to prevent leaving tracks at the edge of the blade. Others will just round the corners. This will soften the tracks. Then some will just sharpen them square and make the last smoothing cuts as light as the plane will take and if the lateral adjustment is just a little to one side, the tracks are fairly easy to "cover" by overlapping the next smoothing stroke.

None of these methods are wrong, if they work, they are all right. That is one of the great things about life, there are so many ways to do the same thing.

jim

[george wilson]

Though the white Spyderco stone is only 1200 grit,it seems to behave like a much finer stone. Probably because it is so hard that micro pieces of it do not come loose and get into the slurry like water stones do. Honing with water + a bit of detergent produces a very sharp edge. To polish the edge,you can wipe the stone dry,and polish the edge to a high shine for a few minutes,then,strop sparingly,so as to not round over the edge. I use the hair,or smooth side of calfskin rather than the suede. I think the suede fluffs up as you strop,and rounds over the edge some. The smooth leather does this to a lesser degree. I also change angles when stropping,to "wipe off" the little mountain chain that edges always have,even razor blades. The idea is to smooth over those little mountains as much as possible.

[Steve Friedman]

Indeed, trying to go backwards and forwards is a leading cause of dubbing (rounding over) an edge for a beginner. It's even tougher to do without rounding the edge on sandpaper, though it's still not trivial on a fine-grit honing stone.

David, would you mind explaining this a bit because the directional issue has always confused me when using sandpaper on granite to flatten the back of a blade. I don't seem to have the problem with the bevels, probably because I always use a guide.

But, for flattening the backs, I get inconsistent results and an sure that "dubbing" is the problem. My assumption is that the front portion of a blade is flat when I can feel a wire edge across the entire edge and the scratch pattern (at 10X magnification) is completely uniform. To avoid the dubbing problem, I have tried to use a side-to-side ("side sharpening") motion to flatten the backs, but it seems to take forever to get a wire edge that way. When I get impatient, I will switch to the backward and forward motion (like a "W") that you described above and get a wire edge pretty quickly. But, when I go back to the side sharpening motion, the back is not really flat because I have obviously removed too much material from the very edge. I assume that is dubbing.

Using a skewed side sharpening motion gets me a similar result. I think the back is flat, but when I try the blade in a pure side sharpening motion, I can tell that I have removed too much material from the very edge.

It's possible that my problem is not being patient with the side sharpening motion. If not, then I am confused. I was always taught that sharpening with the edge trailing risks rounding the edge. But, sharpening with the edge leading seems to risk dubbing. Is there something I am missing?

My apologies to the OP for the hijack.

Steve

[Justin Green]

My apologies to the OP for the hijack.

Steve

No worries, I bought the Veritas guide two years ago now. Then my wife and I had a child, and it has yet to get broken in!

[Don Kingston]

on sharpening 101, is the correct way to push the blade or chisel, to pull the blade, or to rub it back and forth in both directions?

[Patrick Tipton]

I never used a honing jig. I don't know if they existed when I started. Free handed will develop naturally if you develop the eye to pay attention to blade angles. That and other abilities you must develop will ultimately determine if you have the intrinsic potential to become a good craftsman.

I agree with this.

Keep at it. I chewed up my first Sorby oval skew trying to figure out how to sharpen it. One day, I "got it". The blade is about 6 inches down from 10 or so. I replaced it with a new one that is full length, sharpened it correctly the first time and now barely touch it to keep it sharp enough to make finish ready cuts on the lathe.

Instead of working on 6 chisels, work one to death. Make it sharp. Try pushing the blade or pulling - opposite of what you are doing. Hold it differently. It isn't hard to free hand a bevel, but you have to learn to feel it. Only one way to do that - practice!

[David Keller NC]

Don - I failed to reply to Steve back in February, but it was the "back & forth vs. pull-toward-you question" that I was referring to. On the bevel side, if you've some practice, pushing and pulling the blade will take off material faster. But it's also an excellent way to dub the edge if you're not careful. For beginners, I suggest that they start at the end of the stone/sandpaper that's farthest away from them, register the bevel (i.e., "feel" the contact across the width of the bevel), lock their wrists, and pull back towards themselves while putting gentle pressure down on the bevel.

This technique seems to have the least chance of creating a rounded bevel (if one has not hollow-ground it).

[Don Kingston]

Thank You Sir.

[Mike Manning]

I think the 220 is regarded as coarse. As for the white stone,I'd just get it,and not the ultra fine,which costs a lot more. I have the white,and after dressing the fuzz off of it,it has been perfectly satisfactory,leaving a polished edge. I don't know the actual grit,but it is perfectly fine. Just go to the strop to get an extra chrome like shine. This system will make your tools so sharp that,if they are decent steel,they will shave your hair without effort. I've used it for many years. Sorry to be vague,I'm just tired out.

If you don't drop the stones and break them,they will last forever.

You can also get a set of ceramic slip stones for sharpening gouges,and other curved shapes. Let me describe how hard these stones are: I can take a white arkansas slipstone,and easily grind it into a special shape on my zirconia belts. Not so with the ceramics. They are harder than the belts. I have been able to sharpen tool steels,like D2,to a razor edge with the ceramic stone setup. Before,I could not quite get the D2 fully razor sharp,because the steel was harder than the stones I was then using.

Do not expect the Marples to be sharp out of the box.

I'm ready to start sharpening my tools (plane irons & chisels) and reading what I can locate on this site and others. I had a question or two regarding George's recommendation of the Spyderco ceramic stones. First, are these ceramic stones good for sharpening the older Stanley Bailey plane irons (pre-WWII and older) as well as say chisels that would include English steel chisels like 1980's Marples and Sorby or American chisels from the 60s & 70s like Buck Bros, Craftsman or the like? Secondly, how does one sharpen a plane iron wider than 2" on a Spyderco ceramic stone (or any narrower stone for that matter) that's only 2" wide? Maybe I need to watch some highly recommended videos on sharpening as that would likely answer my question. Are Rob Cosman and David Charlesworth still considered top-notch methods of sharpening? Any other notables you can view for free on the internet? Thanks!

[Steve Schoene]

My favorite sharpening guru was Maurice Fraser at the Craft Students League in NY.NY. You find a good article at
Toolforworkingwood.com It’s in a “museum” tab. No guide needed with hollow ground bevels. By keeping almost all pressure over the bevel it becomes easy to avoid dubbing or other ills. He liked oil stones but water stones if kept flat or ceramic were ok. He was not at all happy with scary sharp.

[Vincent Tai]

The Spyderco stones will work fine with your any of your steels. Exotic or not. Something laminated with a thick bevel you might want to use a little water and soap, prevent the soft steel from gumming up the stone. In Cosman vids you can see he is holding his tools at a "skew". I am terrible at describing these sorts of things so:

Tool bevel is still flat on the stone. One can even do "side sharpening". My brain is not functioning but imagine edge parallel to side of your stone and sharpening in that position - still going up and down the stone. Also You don't have to even keep the whole bevel on the stone - for plane irons you want a camber with. There's a few threads where Warren explains this method. The iron pictured is more than half an inch wider then the Spyderco stones. Ignore the funky looking hollows. If you need to use a honing guide there are 3 inch wide Spyderco stones available but they are pricey.
IMG_4218.jpg

https://youtu.be/3KkAlPmcqGA?t=43
https://youtu.be/lhVSMaJxvGg

Brian (also on this forum) sharpening for a bit, good stuff.

Lots of sharpening stuff on the internet. David Weaver's YT channel has some good quick and efficient freehand demos. I think Cosman and Charlesworth are good. What is Top notch is up to you in the end.