Saw Stop is here

[Mark Singer]

Dennis,

Click on "Video Demo" to see it live in action. They show you how much damage you'll get on your finger...I guess it isn't bad and certainly better than loosing a finger.

I want to see the inventor actually spill some blood for his product and ram his own finger into the blade. That would be something!

I assume they have good data showing a hot dog is equivalent to a live human finger?

Chris,
You probably won't believe this, but I tried the hot dog test on my pppPowermatic, sorry I am stuttering with excitement, well the saw miraculously stopped! Don't ask me why, could be that the hot doges are Kosher and the saw was made in Tennesse, I'll be darned if I know. I have a freind in Tel Aviv that has an Israeli made saw.I am sending him some Oscar Meyer Franks (pork not Kosher) to see if he has the same result.
Now if that is true ...I may be totaly safe with the Powermatic considering the origin of the saw and my ethnicity....the problem is I am afraid to try it!
Can you check ith Mr. Glass for me?
Thanks!

[Chris Padilla]

IMBFEM!!! (It must be Friday, eh, Mark?)

Enjoy your weekend everyone...I'm on "vacation" for the next 3 weeks but I'll be on here getting my SMC fix!!

[Mark Singer]

Chris,
Does that mean you won't ask Mr. Glass? I think he likes you...and is not holding his finger against you!

YIFC =(yeah its Friday Chris)

[Steve Gass]

Jay - The only show we are planning to attend at the moment is the IWF2004 shown in Atlanta, August 26-29th. I know that only works for a few folks in that general neck of the woods, but we are a very small company with a limited budget right now. I would expect we will pick up additional shows over the course of the next year as our saws get into full production.

Jim - I agree that kickback causes a lot of injuries - I just think they are mostly minor relative to blade contact injuries. My worst tablesaw accident was getting hit in the chest by a 1x2x6" chunk of polycarbonate that was thrown back by the blade. It didn't weigh very much, but it hit be so hard it almost knocked the wind out of me. I was afraid to lift my shirt to look at the damage. Fortunately, just a large bruise. Of course, that's what the riving knife is there to prevent.

Carole - Our saw is equipped with a true riving knife and a guard attached to its own separate riving knife/spreader that is swapped out for the regular riving knife. The mounting mechanism is a pin-indexed cam lock that takes just seconds to clamp or release and positions the rivinging/guard in the exact same position every time so there isn't any adjustment when switching between the two. IMHO it is far and away the best riving knife/guard system out there. The only think that would improve it would be if the U.L. regulations allows a guard to be mounted directly to the spreader so you could hook a vacuum hose to it like on many of the European saws.

Robin - Due to our back log of pre-orders, if you preorder a saw now, you probably won't see it until November. Its difficult to say exactly since I'm not sure yet how fast we will be able to ramp up production.

Mark - It is a little known secret that all table saws will stop instantly for a hot dog - just not fingers.

[Mark Singer]

Steve,
What about other parts of the anatomy that resemble hot dogs? Again I am very afraid to try this....you can guess why. What do you suggest more in depth hot dog testing?

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Very good Mark! In depth hot dog testing??? Hahahahahahahahaha!

[Ian Barley]

Interesting thread and Steve clearly believes in his product, and probably rightly so because it is undoubtedly technically a move forward.

I still think that the risk that it is guarding against, blade contact with operator, is the one which is easiest to manage away.

As Steve concedes, while the majority of the recorded incidents of injury are a result of blade contact many of these will have been precipitated by a kickback event. Manage the kickback and you manage away that proportion of the contact incidents.

(Lets say we start with 100 injuries and this removes half of them - we're down to 50)

Of the remaining contact incidents how many take place where there is no blade guard present? Probably a sizeable proportion. Most of these would be avoided with the presence of a blade guard. Thats a chunk more off the statistics.

(again lets say half of whats left - we're now at 25)

So we are still left with some contact incidents and each one is a tragedy. So we use a push stick. Not sometimes, not when we remember, not when we feel like it. We use a push stick - all the time. I keep at least three different sorts of pushstick on the saw and use the one most appropriate to the job all the time.

(Lets go for half again to keep the maths easy - 13)

OK. So now we are down to the tiny proportion of contact incidents which will arise depite the presence of a blade guard and the use of a push stick. These are most likely incidents where, for whatever reason, the force which is being applied for the purpose of propelling the timber across the blade suddenly massively exceeds the resistance and momentum forces the pushstick off the workpiece propelling the operators hand at uncontrollable speed into the portion of the blade which is not covered by the blade. ("I slipped and before I could stop I cut three fingers off"). This can be managed by posture, edge maintenance and lubrication.

Posture - Think about the lines of force. Whenever I start a cut I project the force I am applying in my imagination and see where my body parts would end up if there was suddenly no resistance. I make sure that the line of travel that a suddenly released hand would take doesn't end up on the blade. Sounds fancy doesn't it. Try it a few times and it becomes second nature. Do it a few hundred times a day and you can't not do it.

Edge maintenance - A dull blade is many times more dangerous that a sharp one. When the blade gets dull you end up applying excessive force to overcome the resistance and excessive force is what will lead ypu to cut your thumb off. Find a good sharpening service and get your blades sharpened before they need it.

Lubrication - make sure that the blade is kept clean and lubricated. Do the same with the table top and any moving parts. Using a table saw (and most other tools) should not required great physical effort. When it does you are courting danger.

(Half seems a nice round number - 7)

The remaining incidents are likely to fall into the category of slips, trips and horseplay. Don't walk around while the blade is running and if you share your shop with others create an exclusion zone to keep them away during that time. Don't goof around in the shop.

(you might spot a theme - 4. I know that the maths and stats should be more complicated but thats something like a 96% reduction without anybody spending a dime)

Don't work tired. I make my living at this and often work 16 hour days to try and keep up with my orders and usually work 7 days a week in the season. I get tired but make sure that I organise my day so that I am using the high risk tools, including the TS when I am in the right condition. I can sand with matchsticks propping my eyelids but never use the TS when I am weary.

I stress again that I have absolutely nothing against this product and suspect that where I in the market for a saw and all other things were equal I would consider it as an option. I just think that it would be a fantastic shame if somebody in a years time looked at the bleeding stumps arrayed at the end of their hand and thought, "I wish I'd bought a sawstop" when the could be looking at the frayed end of a pushstick and saying , "I'm glad I used a pushstick"

None of these measures slow you down. None of them stop you doing what you need to do. They simply require a bit of thought and the acceptance that the risks really exist, apply to you and need to be dealt with.

[John Shuk]

I think that if this is truly an excellent quality saw with no corners cut and has these safety features built in people might consider it. We are all looking for the best tools and if this is a Porsche they might find a niche. Very innovative for sure.

[Jim Becker]

Again I am very afraid to try this....you can guess why.

Mark, you realize the SawStop feature only works if the hot dogs are more or less than 8 days old...on that 8th day, all bets are off...

[Mark Singer]

Jim,
I did hear that...is that a religous thing or does it have to do with the sodium nitrate preservative. I am thinking to try a Chinese sasauge on a Tiwanese saw. I still haven't heard from my friend in Tel Aviv with his Moshe 2000 tablesaw. I am still thinking to try the Oscar Meyers (pork not Kosher) . The amazing thing is how the Hebrew Nationals stopped my Powermatic on a dime!( I haven't tried Nathin"s yet). Don't ask me why? What effect would a bun and sourkraut have with a little mustard? That one might not make it to the saw ( I would eat it first!)
Idea an all star special with Norm the "New Yankee" workshop and "Emerle Live"
Emerle would be preparing culinary quality dogs (world class!) and Norm would be running them through saws of different origins....60 Minutes could be monitoring the results(Andy Roney is a woodworker)....it would be an unusal show and could appeal to both woodworkers and aspiring chefs....

[Jim Becker]

I did hear that...is that a religous thing or....

You'll have to ask your friendly, neighborhood Mohel...

(And folks...this is all in light-hearted jest and in no way meant to be construed as denegrating to the SawStop product)

[Mark Singer]

You'll have to ask your friendly, neighborhood Mohel...

(And folks...this is all in light-hearted jest and in no way meant to be construed as denegrating to the SawStop product)

Jim,
Do you think circumsisions can be performed on saws with the SawStop?The small cut looks to be about the correct depth! If so we could do it on Saturday Night Live....a sequel to the Buick LeSabre segment of years ago...Puerfect!

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Interesting thread and Steve clearly believes in his product, and probably rightly so because it is undoubtedly technically a move forward.

I still think that the risk that it is guarding against, blade contact with operator, is the one which is easiest to manage away.

As Steve concedes, while the majority of the recorded incidents of injury are a result of blade contact many of these will have been precipitated by a kickback event. Manage the kickback and you manage away that proportion of the contact incidents.

(Lets say we start with 100 injuries and this removes half of them - we're down to 50)

Of the remaining contact incidents how many take place where there is no blade guard present? Probably a sizeable proportion. Most of these would be avoided with the presence of a blade guard. Thats a chunk more off the statistics.

(again lets say half of whats left - we're now at 25)

So we are still left with some contact incidents and each one is a tragedy. So we use a push stick. Not sometimes, not when we remember, not when we feel like it. We use a push stick - all the time. I keep at least three different sorts of pushstick on the saw and use the one most appropriate to the job all the time.

(Lets go for half again to keep the maths easy - 13)

OK. So now we are down to the tiny proportion of contact incidents which will arise depite the presence of a blade guard and the use of a push stick. These are most likely incidents where, for whatever reason, the force which is being applied for the purpose of propelling the timber across the blade suddenly massively exceeds the resistance and momentum forces the pushstick off the workpiece propelling the operators hand at uncontrollable speed into the portion of the blade which is not covered by the blade. ("I slipped and before I could stop I cut three fingers off"). This can be managed by posture, edge maintenance and lubrication.

Posture - Think about the lines of force. Whenever I start a cut I project the force I am applying in my imagination and see where my body parts would end up if there was suddenly no resistance. I make sure that the line of travel that a suddenly released hand would take doesn't end up on the blade. Sounds fancy doesn't it. Try it a few times and it becomes second nature. Do it a few hundred times a day and you can't not do it.

Edge maintenance - A dull blade is many times more dangerous that a sharp one. When the blade gets dull you end up applying excessive force to overcome the resistance and excessive force is what will lead ypu to cut your thumb off. Find a good sharpening service and get your blades sharpened before they need it.

Lubrication - make sure that the blade is kept clean and lubricated. Do the same with the table top and any moving parts. Using a table saw (and most other tools) should not required great physical effort. When it does you are courting danger.

(Half seems a nice round number - 7)

The remaining incidents are likely to fall into the category of slips, trips and horseplay. Don't walk around while the blade is running and if you share your shop with others create an exclusion zone to keep them away during that time. Don't goof around in the shop.

(you might spot a theme - 4. I know that the maths and stats should be more complicated but thats something like a 96% reduction without anybody spending a dime)

Don't work tired. I make my living at this and often work 16 hour days to try and keep up with my orders and usually work 7 days a week in the season. I get tired but make sure that I organise my day so that I am using the high risk tools, including the TS when I am in the right condition. I can sand with matchsticks propping my eyelids but never use the TS when I am weary.

I stress again that I have absolutely nothing against this product and suspect that where I in the market for a saw and all other things were equal I would consider it as an option. I just think that it would be a fantastic shame if somebody in a years time looked at the bleeding stumps arrayed at the end of their hand and thought, "I wish I'd bought a sawstop" when the could be looking at the frayed end of a pushstick and saying , "I'm glad I used a pushstick"

None of these measures slow you down. None of them stop you doing what you need to do. They simply require a bit of thought and the acceptance that the risks really exist, apply to you and need to be dealt with.

Ian, Thanks for your "bit of ramble" . It was an excellent write up of how you should approach a table saw with the right mental processes working. With your methods I think table saw accidents would be greatly reduced. Thanks for all your great insights in reducing table saw dangers. Alan in Md.

[Mark Singer]

We have had some fun with this one! On a serious note, the technology seems amazing! I think this could certainly be like seat belts in our cars, fist it was Rambler and soon all the cars had them. If you had a serious accident....you would wished you had the SawStop.
For all of us with other models...be as safe and careful as you can. Ian brings many thoughtful suggestions worth reading!

[Steve Gass]

Mark, as for other anatomy, it would obviously depend on the size....

More seriously, Ian, you are correct that all of the things you describe have the potential to improve table saw safety and are good things to strive for. However, you could say the same thing about any type of accident - they are virtually all the result of human error. Certainly if we could make humans perfect, we could eliminate almost all accidents. Unfortunately, that is not one of the available options, so we are left with doing what we can to improve humans (probably not much, humans being like they are ) and then making the environment as forgiving of human mistakes as possible. That is what SawStop is for - when you make a mistake.

I think anyone who is so confident in their perfection that they don't worry about making a mistake using their tablesaw is living in a delusion. Now we're getting back to the problems with human nature - it is a common delusion that it "won't happen to me." It can happen to anyone, anytime and it can have lifelong consequences in the blink of an eye. I don't think I've ever spoken with a victim of a tablesaw accident who thought it would happen to them before before it happened.

SawStop isn't the perfect solution - just one heck of a lot better than nothing in the vast, vast majority of cases.