Saw Stop is here

[Chris Padilla]

Dennis,

Click on "Video Demo" to see it live in action. They show you how much damage you'll get on your finger...I guess it isn't bad and certainly better than loosing a finger.

I want to see the inventor actually spill some blood for his product and ram his own finger into the blade. That would be something!

I assume they have good data showing a hot dog is equivalent to a live human finger?

[Michael Ballent]

I really like the idea of the SawStop but I think that they missed the boat by not including the fence for the saw. It's already pricey as it is but then you need to add another 200-300 bucks to the mix and now its more big $$$. Will they support a separate splitter so you can use an overarm guard? The technology is cool, but there are still many questions as to how the thing works. Does it damage the blade when it stops the blade?

It's already a pain to switch to a dado, but then you need to change a cartridge as well. This is new information to me. Hopefully no one needs to pay for the new cartridge, but I am sure they would be very content paying for a new one... Also is the saw no longer operable after the brake is activated?

I can see a huge potential market in industry... but only in medium to small shops the larger outfits probably would not use them since they usually need much larger machines that what SS is currently offering. It would be nice to see JetPowermaticDeltaCraftsmanRyobi offer a solution like this... Competition is good for all of us, but their lawyers will probably not let them. Sadly, I do not see the schools buying them since many seem to be getting rid of shop classes altogether.

[Jack Hogoboom]

Dennis,

I remember seeing a picture of a hotdog they used to demo the SS mechanism. It had a tiny little nick in it. The SS guy explained how they get the teeth out of the way so quickly.

If I didn't already have a cabinet saw, I'd spend the extra $400 bucks in a heart beat. So far, I've been lucky and only had one middling kickback accident. But I still have the scar and I'd feel a lot safer with this thing.

What's interesting to me is that if the SS achieves any kind of market penetration at all, then everyone will have to include a similar mechanism. There is no way Delta for instance could keep selling a saw without one. It would be like trying to sell a saw without a blade guard. Once it becomes accepted in the industry, it would be a design defect not to include it.

Jack

[Dan Mages]

My grandfather built furniture for a living and lost two fingers in an accident. I have always had a fear of saws because of this. So yes, this feature is quite exciting to me. However, what is the quality of the saw in general? How does it compare quality and cutting wise to a Uni, a PM66, etc? A junky saw with a cool feature is still a junky saw. How long will it be before Delta or PM come out with this feature?

Dan

[Ian Barley]

I think its a clever idea and an interesting use of technology but I cannot say that I would ever trust it and also feel that it covers a risk that can be thoroughly managed without it.

There is a temptation to compare it to safety devices fitted to motor cars but the big difference for me is that in a car (automobile) I am protecting myself from me but also from other road users. With a table saw I am in sole charge of the process and therefore feel that I can manage the risks.

The other interesting thing for me is that the sawstop protects against a high severity, low probability risk - physical contact with the sawblade. With a tablesaw the higher probability risk is kickback, which can be largely managed with splitter/riving knife. These to me are significantly more important features but because they are not whizzbang technology they seem less impressive.

Bottom line - If I could add this level of protection for $50 I would. For $500 I probably wouldn't. Even if it was there I would never trust it to work and would still rely on my own actions for my own safety.

[JayStPeter]

I don't think losing a cartridge or blade would bother me if I just wound up with a nick on my finger. That would be less catastrophic than what would've happened. I'd happily get a new cartridge and blade. I think it's a feature I'd just rather not take advantage of.

In thinking about the cost, lots of people have spent $500 for a splitter and overhead guard. I spent a little less, but close. The SS also has a blade shroud DC port. Should work better than most other cabinet saws, even with overhead guards with DC. I would also like to see more detail of the blade shroud, riving knife, and blade guard attach/detach operation.

Chris,
I remember reading in the early days that they showed the mechanism work with a human finger on a non-spinning sawblade and showed how the hot dog triggered it the same way. Judging by feel, I'd say the hot dog is easier to cut than a finger, so probably less damage to the finger.

I bet that thing is pretty scary when it goes off.

Jay

[Chris Padilla]

Even if it was there I would never trust it to work and would still rely on my own actions for my own safety.

Ian,

You bring up an interesting point. I can't imagine EVER getting complacent with a table saw but I bet it happens to professionals. I think hobbiests might pay better attention. My father has an uncle who lost an arm in a sawmill accident....

Still, one should always practice and rely on oneself for all actions around a deadly spinning blade on a TS but one has to figure out if the cost of just a tad more protection is worth it or not.

I know that I will never, EVER put my fingers in jeopordy of a table saw blade...I'm just too conscientious to do such a thing. It is quite healthy to be scared every time we turn on the table saw...it forces you to evaluate all cutting situations.

BTW, "nice" avatar....

[thomas prevost]

Having seen it at a trade show, I have some concerns. 1) the hotdog test is done at extremely slow forward speeds. What if one was ripping 1/4" plywood very fast? 2) throw the hotdog into the blade such as what would happen in a slip type accident. It was mangled to shreds. Similar to a kickback and the hand landing forcibly on the blade. It will stop before the arm is cut off, but there be substancial damage.

It has some safety potential but, I feel is minimal compared to the many types of accidents that can happen. How long before there is a mega lawsuit, putting them out of business and there is no availablilty for new cartridges? What has happened to common sense, blade guards, etc?

Just my 2 cents.

[Chris DeHut]

For me, the most serious shop accident I have had (in about 25 years in various shops and very large machinery), is 10 stitches in my left thumb. Not from a power tool but your basic 1" chisel.

The Saw Stop has caused me more internal debate than I care to think about. At first it appeared like a good idea - similar to air bags in a car if you will. Then the company tried to force others into using the device on their saws - don't know how that is coming along but not important in the over all picture. Now it appears as though it finally has come about.

As someone else mentioned, you can easily drop $500.00 or so on over arm blade guards and other devices, so in reality, the cost should not be an issue. The damage to a saw blade, the "Cartridge", and even if it takes out the arbor and bearings is truly a non issue as well. If I come into contact with a spinning saw blade, serious damage to me is going to happen. The cost to replace the: cartridge, stacked dado cutter, the arbor, and the spindle bearings is going to be nothing compared to the real loss we are talking about - loss of limb, even if it is only a finger.

As for it causing me to become complacent on the machine because IT (Saw Stop) is there - doubtful that IT would cause that. More often than not, repetition is the cause of complaceny.

A few years ago I was consulting at a large manufacturing plant. As with most companies, they have a mix of older machinery and newer machinery. One machine in particular is an older (about 1930s) horizontal mill. The operator wasn't paying attention to where her arm was and the machine cut the arm off - between the wrist and elbow. This accident caused the company to re-evaluate all of the machinery in the company and they came up with a plan to correct the problems. One issue that was very interesting in their research was that while they could stop the machine with a standard light curtain, the spindle wouldn't stop until the drive train momentum would down. To correct this, they also installed brakes on the motors to stop them very quickly.

It appears as though the Saw Stop, deals with this issue using the force of the cartridge against the blade. This in effect stops the spinning blade instantly and cuts power to the motor. However, I have to wonder what happens during spin down?

For example, you make a ripping cut and stop the motor (left knee against switch as is my routine). Then you reach across the blade to grab the stock but bump the blade with your finger. At this point the saw is "Off" and the blade is spinning with enough force to cause serious damage should a body part come into contact with the blade, but with the saw off, does the Saw Stop device still function?

I certainly hope that the device becomes a success in some form or another. I guess it is like having all of the safety devices in my truck: Seat belts, Air bags, Anti-lock brakes, energy absorbing structural members, etc, etc, etc, etc, - not just one device trying to save me, but many working together.

Chris DeHut

[Chris Padilla]

Chris,

As I understand it, the blade retracts while it is stopping once activated.

However, you bring up a good question regarding power being cut. From what I read and understand, the Stop is only active when the power button is turned on. I bet they could electronically have the Stop active for a couple seconds after a power down or just turn on when it senses blade movement. Excellent question/point, Chris.

Great thread, Fellas! You should be proud of us, Ken.!

[Terry Hatfield]

Chris,

Good thread.

I'm still riding the fence on the saw stop device itself. As one that has had a significant TS accident I feel that my accident would have been virtually nothing, probably a bandaid would have been sufficient if I were using the Saw Stop, BUT the actual cause of my accident was being too tired to be in the shop in the first place. I simply don't go out there if I'm tired. Hobbist can do that. It's another thing in a professional setting. I certainly can see the merits of the system but still can't decide if I would pay that much more for the SS or not.

I really do like the riving knife and the dust collection shroud on the saw. Both of these innovations are worth paying a few extra bucks for. If Griz, Delta, PM, Jet or whoever would make a saw with these innovations I believe the additional cost over a "regular" saw would be negligable. Perhaps $100 to $200. I would buy one in a heartbeat if someone would only make it.

I am also interested to know if one could use a dado set without changing the cartridge. I don't know for sure but I would guess that the percentage of TS accidents that happen with a dado set in the saw would be much lower than those that happen with a regular blade. Can you use the dado without changing the cartridge??? I see no info on their site about that.

Terry

(edit) Perhaps one could just use the lock out switch on the saw as if you were cutting metal to turn off the SS device for dado use. Seems right to be but what do I know.

[Ed Falis]

I thought the SawStop came with a Bies clone fence.

I feel the SS could actually make people complacent, sort of like the 4x4 SUV's and trucks around here who forget that 4WD doesn't make you stop any faster.

Am I looking to trade my saw in for a SS? I don't theeeeenk so.

While I don't think a sawstop would make people complacent (if they have any brains), you comment about SUV's reminds me of an editorial I saw in the paper a few years ago. The guy writing it said "SUV's allow people to break down further from civilization than ever before"!

Now, I know he wasn't talking about folks out in the country where the truck actually matters and is useful, but about those in the city and 'burbs with these tanks. Like the women peering over the dashboard driving like they're invincible in the snow and ice - yikes!

I enjoyed the comment.

- Ed

[Douglas Robinson]

Are people driving more recklessly since seat belts became mandatory, since air bags were installed, how about since helmets were required for motorcycles.

I lost the tip of my right pointer finger when I was 9 in a dumb, but non-woodworking related accident. I am an extremely careful woodworker. If I did not already own a Jet cabinet saw I wood consider buying the SawStop. I would need to know a lot more about the saw in addition to the safety mechanism. There is no price you can put on an injury that lasts forever. I think we are a little jaded in our point of view.

On another forum someone posted about losing the tip of their thumb and that started a lot of people thinking about their blade guards. Some people put hundreds of dollars in to overarm blade guards with dust collection. These are similar subjects. Admittedly you can add a blade guard to almost any existing table, unlike the SS.

BTW I am in the process of finishing my basement, a part of which will be my shop. I plan to add a electrical subpanel that has a keylock so that all the outlets are disabled in the event my children enter the shop without me. To me that is a reasonable cost for the safety it provides. (The foregoing are just my opinions, and no brain cells were injured in the forming of those opinions.)

[Terry Hatfield]

"Admittedly you can add a blade guard to almost any existing table, unlike the SS."


Douglas,

You bring up an interesting point. Is there some reason a overhead guard could not be used on the SS tablesaw??? I've studied the pics quite a bit today and I don't see why it couldn't be done. I would certainly like to add one if I had a SS tablesaw. I've used one for so long now I'm not about to use a saw without an overhead guard, Saw Stop or not!!!

t

[Steven Wilson]

$2200 to address the second leading cause of injury on a tablesaw? Money foolishly spent! As I see it there are three areas of concern with the tablesaw; kickback, amputation/cutting, and pushback. Pushback (saw pushes work back at you) is annoying, probably doesn't cause much of a problem except for a few stained shorts. The SawStop does address the amputation/cutting flesh problem but likely not with dato blades. Properly guarding your saw will also solve the amputation/cutting flesh issue. Kickback is not addressed at all with the SawStop and this is a major area of injury for table saw users. Fortunately amputation and kickback problems can be addressed by using a properly adjusted riving knife and a decent guard; check out the european combo machines to see how it's done right. If the SawStop folk's were really interested in selling an inherintly safer product then they would design an American style cabinet saw with a proper riving knife with an attached, and detachable, guard.