Bandsaw mill owners

[Dave Lehnert]

Kicking around the idea of investing in a Woodmizer type mill. This would be for hobby use but also as a very small part time business. Nothing huge. Mill a log or two for a woodworker that has a tree down in the yard or the like.

1) anyone own a mill as does something like this?

2) what kind of insurance do you have to mill on other property? Cost/year?

[Mark Bolton]

Dave,
We own a small mill, Norwood Lumbermate. Has a 31" dia. capacity, 22' length. Have done some sawing for neighbors and a little bit for cash but never bought it to make money. Mainly for our own use.

One thing I will tell you is to really figure out what you can charge to saw and what your target market will be. It varies wildly based on location but I will tell you that if you cant get a pretty good price per thousand it will be tough to make any money. Once you factor in the cost of fuel, blades, and setup/takedown, you had better be able to charge.

With our mill, just a shove through type no hydraulics, sawing 1500' or more per day is a chore if your sawing 4/4 and sawing for grade. Lots of passes through the log, lots of rolling, and lots of off bearing flitch's and slabs. Then going back and edging a bit at the end. In that days work there is perhaps $30+ in fuel at todays prices, 4 blades a thousand, the money for the mill, and your time. Fuel and blades alone can cost close to 100/thousand.

In our area its not uncommon to be able to buy rough lumber (not graded) for 400/thousand. If these are going to be your customers it may be tough to make any money. If however you live in an area where people may be willing to pay far more than that then you would be good.

You have to remember, where these small mills shine is sawing nice boards. They are not worth sending into old junk trees because they are simply to slow and too costly to run (man hours). If you can find those customers it may be a good investment. The real cream is when you get someone who has a few big trees they want rid of and will let you have them for getting them out of there. Thats where you can get some money.

As far as insurance, its never been anything we have considered. We are in a rural farm area and dont really do any felling for anyone so its just the sawing end of it. I would venture to guess that your liability insurance on a portable milling operation if you are going to be doing any felling will be in the tens of thousands per year.

Mark

[Dave Lehnert]

Thanks Mark

Just the kind of info I was looking for.
I know this can very widely but how many board foot do you get out of a average tree you mill?

Any forums on the web to get more info on operating?

[Howie French]

Dave -

check out the forestry forum - google "forestry forum" - within, they have a forum devoted to sawmills and milling, lots of info regarding bandmills.

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks Mark

Just the kind of info I was looking for.
I know this can very widely but how many board foot do you get out of a average tree you mill?

Any forums on the web to get more info on operating?

Dave,
With regard to bdft per tree is very hard to say because there are so many variables. There are three log scales that are most common, doyle, scribner, and international. In our experience the doyle or the scribner are accurate for estimating. Here are a couple links I found on google:
http://www.customsawing.com/doyle.htm
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...and_Lumber.htm

These log rules/scales estimate the content of a log based on the diameter at the small end. Each takes into consideration the sawing techniques of the area it is used. Additionally there is a method of estimating the content in a tree by measuring he diameter at chest height and estimating the length of the stem but I cant remember it.

But if you were to take an average 12' saw log perhaps 16"-18" in diameter, which is good size for a single man operation, you may be looking at it scaling out in the 100-150 range depending on which scale you use. Usually with a band mill, small kerf and people who usually try to maximize yield, you will over saw most of the log scales other than the international which seems to be high. When we would watch, we usually oversaw by about 10-15 percent. So that may mean 115 to 165 bdft for that log. Depending on the type, size, and quality of the tree, getting three clean logs out of the main stem is doing good. Sometimes you will only get two, sometimes you will get four.

If I were to wage a wild guess I would say 300' a tree would be doing very well if you are able to saw fairly good size stuff. For us the sweet spot was always around 20". Anything bigger than that gets exponentially harder to handle for each additional inch without hydraulics. Anything much smaller than 12" is tough to get any yield but we always saw everything out of a tree thats worth putting on the mill. We will even saw small 5-6' logs out of good size limbs. Our though is, if your going to be out there you might as well get all you can.

We once sawed some 32" dia. x 16' poplar logs. Had to slab them off with a chainsaw to get them to pass through the carriage on the mill. It was an adventure and wound up with some gorgeous 26" wide boards but it took half a day to saw a single log. Its a bear, dangerous, but some nice wood. Unfortunately they were for a guy who used those boards to wall up a barn!!! What a shame. I offered to trade out smaller material but no go.

www.woodweb.com above is perhaps the best forum out there for sawing. Lots of great info from people who are active in the industry. Everyone from a hobby mill to a huge commercial operation is there.

Mark

[Chip Lindley]

As an aside to the BF issue, these bandsaw mills are very attractive because *every 5th board is FREE*! The thin kerf makes boards instead of sawdust, as large circular saws do, with a 1/4" to 3/8" kerf! I have had several logs sawed on a Wood-Mizer and its a very nice machine. The sawyer sold his *ARMSTRONG* mill and bought the Top-Of-The-Line model with hydraulic Everything! It made sawing a real pleasure rather than a hard days work! The only manual labor is Peveying the log onto the hyd. loading arms, and pulling the boards off to stack after sawed. AND shovelling a truckload of sawdust after a days work Too, I might Add!

There is money to be made if you can hitch up your mill and travel to where the logs are. Many farmers utilize these mills to make timbers for out-buildings on their property. Much more economical to bring the mill to the logs than bring the logs to the mill! You can charge by the Hour or by the BF, plus travel mileage! Check with other bandsawyers in your area to compare their best deal with your expectations of what the market will bear.

If you plan to make this a *business* keep accurate records for the IRS. You have (I think) up to 3 years (out of 5) to show a profit while you amortize your investment! After that it is considered a *hobby*! But within 3 years, perhaps you can pay for your mill and break even! That might be the objective afterall! For more info look up IRS Publication 535, Business Expenses.

[Izzy Camire]

I have a Logmaster machine which is all hydraulic. I bought it to saw the lumber for my barn. It shined in that use.
I also saw out lumber for friends and the occasional customer. I don't make much money with it but I built a barn and didn't buy any lumber to do it. I also have piles of all kinds of lumber sitting aorund.

I would say the things Mark said are all true and should be heeded.

[Fred Jones]

Dave,

I've had a Timberking 1600 Bandsaw mill for 4 years. It will cut 16 foot long logs up to 36 inched in diameter. As previous posters have mentioned, don't plan on making lots of money wirh a sawmill. It's sort of like Christmas to cut into a log and see some great wood appear.

I saw logs for myself and a dozen or so logs per year for others for pay. I don't get rich, but if you like hard work it's kind of fun.

Take a look at my web site to get additional information.

www.CedarCreekSawmill.net

Here is a quick way to estimate board feet yields from a log.

Estimating Board Feet from Logs

To estimate the yield in board feet from a log, do the following calculations:

Take the diameter of the small end of the log and subtract 4 inches. For example, a 24 inch diameter log minus 4 inches leaves 20 inches. Next, square the 20 by multiplying 20 times 20 to yield 400. Divide the squared result by 2 to yield 200. This gives you 200 board feet which is a rough estimate of the number of board feet that would result from sawing a 24 inch diameter log that is 8 feet long.

If your log isn't 8 feet log, divide the 200 board feet by 8 to yield 25 board feet. If your log is 6 feet long you can multiply by 25 to get the estimate of 150 board feet for a 24 inch diameter log that is 6 feet long.

[Jim Dailey]

Dave,

You might also take a look at a "swing saw" such as the Lucas or the Peterson mill.

Very portable rigs that you can bring the saw to the tree & literally set it up around a fallen tree. The max depth a 25" blade will cut on a single pass is 8" unless you rotate the head (easier on the Peterson). With these saws you make a vertical pass one way down the log, flip the blade, & cut horizontal on the way back. Every board is straight lined. Because you flip the blade you don't have to rotate the log to get quarter sawn boards. There is also a slabbing attachment that will clear cut to 60" x 8" thick to the length of the rails.

Off the top of my head the specs are something like that they will handle a tree to 80" in diameter (at that size the logs are hard to lift... thus set the saw up around the log ) to the length of your rails.

Yes Chip your right the circle saw blades are thicker than a band saw blade but for me the straight line stock is worth it. And I can sharpen the blade with out removing it from the saw in about 5 minute. Re-tipping runs about $20 per blade.

Do a search on internet for Sawmill Exchange for as source of used equipment both band & swing mills.

Hope this helps,
jim

[Dave Lehnert]

Thanks for all the info. I will take a look at all the links.

Chip- We kinda got the idea because a friend has some logs to mill and having a hard time getting a mill owner to show up after wanting the job. He did have one guy show up but his mill was not kept up on service and had problems. Had to stop after one log.
This is first a foremost for our own hobby use but why not try and make a little money. But then again would need a bigger mill for that. Lots of reading to do I guess. We look at the expense no different than one may buy a car just for cruising.

Again, Thanks to all for the info.

[Dave Lehnert]

Fred!

I have been reading your web site. Thanks!
I was reading the customers responsibility section on your page. As far as cutting the logs, stacking , power washing clean-up etc... Is this a problem for most customers? Around here I would guess customers would expect the mill operater to do everything.

[Mark Bolton]

Dave,
I think a lot of it will come down to my initial reply in that "what will you be able to charge". This may be a hard thing to determine prior to purchasing the mill but it is drastically offset by your wanting also to buy the mill for yourself. It would be much different if you were only looking to start a business.

I could easily see in many areas a customer may want to do nothing, and be willing to pay you for doing it all and leaving them with a clean raked lawn when you leave ($$$$$). Or you could be in an area where a guy can run to the big circle mill down the road and buy rough lumber for 400/mbf but thinks because the trees come off his property (he supplies the trees) the price should be less than 400/mbf where the mill has to buy and transport the logs. Its very area dependent and will rely on you know who is, and isnt, your customer based on your mill's capacity.

Then of course you can upgrade to an LT40 fully hydraulic mill and the 30K price tag and 150/thou in fuel and blades and make it something you have to do to pay the mortgage on the mill.

Keep it something you'll enjoy is my $0.02
Mark

[Fred Jones]

So far everyone I've sawn for has done the clean up themselves. If they wanted me to stay and clean up at $60 per hour I'd be glad to do it.

I sawed for one customer in the public street in front of his house. I questioned him on this before hand and he said his neighbors wouldn't mind, and he'd clean up after I left. The city police didn't track me down to give me a ticket, so I guess it worked out OK.

If a customer doesn't have a suitable sawing location then I suggest that they bring the log to my sawing site. Then I take care of the clean up at no additional charge. Of course sometimes it's difficult for them to get the log loaded and hauled to my site.

One of the posts mentioned insurance cost. My local insurance agent was able to write me a half million dollar liability policy, including a loss policy that covered damage to the sawmill, for $1050 per year. It covered up to $25,000 in income per year ( about 4 times what I've needed), with additional costs if the sawing income went over $25,000. My insurance doesn't cover cutting standing trees down. That would have cost an additional $1000 per year.

[Mark Bolton]

One of the posts mentioned insurance cost. My local insurance agent was able to write me a half million dollar liability policy, including a loss policy that covered damage to the sawmill, for $1050 per year. It covered up to $25,000 in income per year ( about 4 times what I've needed), with additional costs if the sawing income went over $25,000. My insurance doesn't cover cutting standing trees down. That would have cost an additional $1000 per year.

Wow,
Thats great Fred, liability seems to have gone through the roof in the past 10 years, at least for us. We find most companies simply dont want to write liability for less than a million bucks. Our main focus is homebuilding and remodeling but the days of 500/year getting you a million dollars of liability (no roofing) are long gone. That said, we are in WV which is the home of the ambulance chaser and the "so yo were turned down for disability" ad. That likely plays a large part.

Its good to hear that somewhere companies are still being realistic.

Mark

[David Epperson]

Let me say first off - I do not have one of these. However, a pretty good friend of the family does, and I've helped him run it, loading logs and hauling flitches and slabs. Something no one has mentioned yet, as far as milling trees felled from around homes is NAILS. Nails will put and early end to a saw blades performance - invest in a metal detector and use it religiously and thoroughly before cutting. Even then you will still spoil more than one blade. There are different grades of blades up to and including (I'm told) carbide toothed blades. But the blades our guy uses he says were "only" 7$ each...But go though enough of them and that mounts up.