Laser vs CNC router

[Scott Shepherd]

A router (even a PC) is like a glass laser tube. You'll wish you had the real thing.

A router will make me wish I had a Coca-Cola? (sorry, 15 minute jobs running in the laser and I'm bored ).

[Keith Outten]

Doug,

The subject of spindles vs router motors has been beat to death more than a few times but there is still merit to both sides of the issue. I own a ShopBot with a PC 7518 router motor. I run a ShopBot at CNU that is basically the same machine I own except it has a spindle. I use both machines almost daily and my opinion is that spindles offer very little for the increase in price, my opinion is based on my personal feelings concerning what I classify as "Best Value". A major part of my "Best Value" evaluation is based on the type of work that I do. Others may very well come to a very different conclusion.

If I was in the market for another machine my decision would be to purchase one with a router motor rather than a spindle. This may be 180 degrees out from someone elses opinion but it proves that not one soul has the right to declare that spindles are always the best choice. The cost difference between my PC router at $280.00 and the spindle at CNU which was $2,800.00 is not insignificant. For me, and the work I do, the difference in performance could never justify the additional cost of a spindle.

Other than price my only pet peeve is having to warm up the ceramic bearings in the spindle before I can start machining....and the subsequent warm-ups throughout the day that are required if the machine sits idle for any period of time.

In defense of the other side of this thread I do take the time to warm up my laser engraver before starting a job, for some reason that doesn't bother me near as much as having to warm up the dang spindle
.

[Doug Griffith]

I think all I've managed with starting this thread is proving to myself that I'm opinionated. Everyone else probably figured it out long ago.

SPINDLES RULE!!!

[bob pfohler]

Personally I don't think it matters which you buy, I'd be willing to bet soon after you will own the other machine. Like most of us this is just the beginning of your obsession with cool tools.

We are self taught on both machines with help only from this forum and business has been very good, even with the down turn economy. We recently added a small vinyl plotter and it's been a blast exploring the new possibilities.

[Keith Outten]

There are people here who have been successful building their business around a single machine. I tried to do just that when I purchased my laser engraver but It didn't work for me. Adding a CNC router made the difference in my case and the combination of the two machines really made it easier for me to produce products that were desirable and more importantly that I enjoyed the work.

I think that if you enjoy what you do no matter what machine or machines you use it increases the odds of success. Most will center their product line around a single machine, whether it is a lathe, scroll saw or computer controlled machine it is easier to learn and use the machines that allow you to work in your preferred design style and be creative.
.

[Tom Majewski]

My day job has me programing and using CC routers, and I have the laser when I'm home.

Still, I'd like to get a small shopbot for home.

[Larry Bratton]

Ceramic bearings in a spindle? I never knew that. My old Warthog has a 5hp Columbo on it that has never been warmed up that I know of. No one ever told me to do that. I just turn the machine on and run what I have to run. I leave and go back to it again later in the day and do it again. Do all spindles have those? That Columbo spindle is like the rabbit in the battery commercial..she just keeps on and on and on. Never been off for repair.

My machine is old technology I guess, but at the time I bought it, the spindle wasn't as loud as a Porter Cable router by a long shot. Is it still that way or have the routers improved in that respect?

[Doug Griffith]

Ceramic bearings in a spindle? I never knew that. My old Warthog has a 5hp Columbo on it that has never been warmed up that I know of. No one ever told me to do that. I just turn the machine on and run what I have to run. I leave and go back to it again later in the day and do it again. Do all spindles have those? That Columbo spindle is like the rabbit in the battery commercial..she just keeps on and on and on. Never been off for repair.

My machine is old technology I guess, but at the time I bought it, the spindle wasn't as loud as a Porter Cable router by a long shot. Is it still that way or have the routers improved in that respect?

My Perske Spindle has ceramic bearings and runs so quiet you don't even know it's running. At least in the shop environment. I rarely warm mine up because time is money and I don't think the cost of a new spindle will exceed the down time. It depends if the operator has other things to do. I also live in California so it never really gets that cold.

[Larry Bratton]

Doug:
Ah..that's the reason I guess. My shop is heated and I am in SC. I don't usually work at that shop on really cold days anyway. Costs too much to heat it, so if it's not critical to get it done, I work at my laser shop which is a much smaller building and a lot easier to heat. I'll keep that in mind though should I need to run something on a really cold day. What's the procedure for warming them up? Just let the spindle run for awhile before starting to cut or route? How long? I reckon the Columbo has ceramics..

[Keith Outten]

Larry,

Your owners manual for your spindle probably has warm up instructions. The one we have at CNU requires one minute warmups at frequency settings of 150, 225 and 300 which is max speed.

Ceramic bearings are very close tolerance bearings, the run-out at the router bit is probably less than 25% of a normal router motor. This is the reason they should be warmed up incrementally and I doubt it has anything to do with whether your shop is heated or not...but I don't think it would be a good idea to start up a spindle if your shop is extremely cold. The thermal shock may crack the bearings.

Rebuilding a spindle is not the same task as replacing the bearings in a router. I'm told it is quite a chore and requires some special tools. I don't know what the cost would be but I expect it would cause me to have a heart attack
.

[Larry Bratton]

Larry,

Your owners manual for your spindle probably has warm up instructions. The one we have at CNU requires one minute warmups at frequency settings of 150, 225 and 300 which is max speed.

Ceramic bearings are very close tolerance bearings, the run-out at the router bit is probably less than 25% of a normal router motor. This is the reason they should be warmed up incrementally and I doubt it has anything to do with whether your shop is heated or not...but I don't think it would be a good idea to start up a spindle if your shop is extremely cold. The thermal shock may crack the bearings.

Rebuilding a spindle is not the same task as replacing the bearings in a router. I'm told it is quite a chore and requires some special tools. I don't know what the cost would be but I expect it would cause me to have a heart attack
.

Ha! Don't have a manual..never did. The manufacturer of the machine is now the highly touted Camaster guy. The router I have had for 5 years apparently didn't have a published manual for it back at that time...soooo...subsequently we just figured it out on our own. I am however going to ask that question, you got my curiosity up.

[Steve knight]

you will loose about 1/2 the bearing life without a warmup. columbo's are worse then hsd's but I don't think they come with ceramic bearings unless they were a special addon.
if you don't warm up the spindle the bearings are sloppy and you put pressure on them they wear far faster. once warmed up the tolerance is where it is supposed to be and you have far less runout.

[Larry Bratton]

you will loose about 1/2 the bearing life without a warmup. columbo's are worse then hsd's but I don't think they come with ceramic bearings unless they were a special addon.
if you don't warm up the spindle the bearings are sloppy and you put pressure on them they wear far faster. once warmed up the tolerance is where it is supposed to be and you have far less runout.

Steve:
I just learned that from the authorized repair center for Columbo , Precision Drive Systems in Bessemer City, NC. They told me identically the same thing and did advise to run the spindle for 10 to 15 minutes prior to putting it under load. I have never done that before, so, I may have shortened the life of the bearings. Anyhow, they have had over 5 years of life so far, but we will start warming it up prior to putting it under load in the future. Thanks for the info.

[Keith Outten]

I've heard quite often that if there was a choice between the 2, the money maker from the get go is a CNC router. I can see the point if it's regarding job requests but CNC routers are completely different animals. They have at least twice the steps from design to part, require expensive software, and have an overly steep learning curve. They are nowhere near as easy as using lasers. Doing actual money paying work would be many months behind the laser. I'm not even sure everybody has the capacity or patience to program CNCs. Anybody can run a laser... Well almost.

Doug,

Back to your original question these are my opinions:

My experience is that CNC Routers will produce more profit than laser engravers by a long shot.

Most CNC manufacturers include the necessary software with their machines.
The learning curve for a 3 dimensional machine is steeper but it has gotten much easier than it was even four years ago as new software has become available. Design work can be done in Corel Draw, the same software that most laser engravers use for their machines. Once the design is done you need to create toolpaths which isn't as difficult as you would think and you don't have to do any programing.

Profitable work can easily be done in the first few days, often the most simple tasks will provide excellent income. Don't get caught up in the idea that until you can produce high-end 3D signs you will not see a profit.

Laser engravers are a bit easier to operate than CNC machines but they still require a considerable amount of time to learn the various techniques to use for a very wide variety of materials. I doubt the statement that anybody can run a laser engraver is true or even close to being true. They aren't just simple printers, there are lots of combinations of speeds and power settings to consider and every machine is unique. throw in the variables that you would find when working with non engineered materials and it gets a bit more involved. After you have engraved your first photograph only then will you begin to understand how talented the people here are...and you will begin to respect their expertise. They make it look so easy!

From my vantage point I would advise you purchase a CNC router first then a laser engraver, if you are planning on owning both machines. The router will help you pay for your laser engraver in a shorter time span.

When you start shopping for a laser engraver resist the urge to purchase based on price. Your first and most important consideration should be the very best manufacturer. You will need their help more than you know and the price of replacing C02 Tubes is something you should know about before you purchase. Ask about software and driver updates and get a guarantee that the manufacturer will correct all bugs found in their driver within a reasonable number of years. Ask them how many years they will provide driver/software support...my laser is about six years old and Epilog didn't include it in their latest driver updates. Xenetech promised me a bug fix for their $35,000 XLT-1325 laser over two years ago, good thing I didn't hold my breath.

Many here have received machines that were very expensive lemons. Ask the manufacturer if they will take the machine back without penalty if they can't fix their machine in less than five attempts during the warranty period. They don't mind sending you parts for weeks or months while you provide your labor free changing out parts looking for a problem they can't diagnose over the phone. Don't forget that while you spend days or weeks swapping out parts you won't be making any money and your labor and overhead costs will add to your pain while your customers wait and wait and wait.

Brochures that seem to promise 20,000 to 30,000 hours of laser tube life can be misleading. What they mean is the the gas in the tube should last that many hours but they don't mention the electronics and the electronics are what fails most of the time.

What you can learn here is what questions to ask that will save you from major heartbreak if your shiny new $30,000 laser engraver turns out to be a machine you wish you never laid eyes on. The number of people who have had serious problems with certain makes, models and manufacturers is well documented here, read and heed.

Over the last five years I have noticed that laser engravers are inclined to have hardware problems much more frequently than CNC Routers and routers are, generally speaking, less expensive. When your laser engraver is down for repairs your router will be making you money helping to keep your bills paid.
.

[Richard Rumancik]

Keith, thanks for your informative comments about lasers vs. routers.

. . . .Laser engravers are a bit easier to operate than CNC machines but they still require a considerable amount of time to learn the various techniques to use for a very wide variety of materials. I doubt the statement that anybody can run a laser engraver is true or even close to being true. They aren't just simple printers, there are lots of combinations of speeds and power settings to consider and every machine is unique. throw in the variables that you would find when working with non engineered materials and it gets a bit more involved. .

Keith, I agree with you 100% on this one.

Doug and Rodne, with all due respect, perhaps you have forgotten all you have learned over time and it is now second nature. I agree that an inexperienced person can "run" a laser, but they certainly wouldn't be able to troubleshoot problems. A lot of laser problems are materials issues that an operator just cannot solve. Pressing "start" over and over is one thing; being able to figure out an approach to how something could be done is quite another. And being able to use vector graphics programs and photo-manipulation programs effectively is not trivial either.

A lot of manufacturers highlight the "fact" that laser fabrication does not require fixturing because it is a non-contact process. So why do I have so many fixtures? And an operator probably can't design and fabricate fixtures. No, CO2 lasers are not like printers . . .

I am not disagreeing that routers require significant expertise, but I don't want to leave the impression that lasers are simple either.