Sub-panel installed wrong?

[Roger Frazee]

HI Dan

Yeah I've made many drawings over the years to help others "see it". You should see the one that has all the code sections that are involved in this type project. I usually post this one as it is less confusing.
FYI... if your area is adopting the 2008 NEC and there are no local amendments to sub-panel feeders from the service equipment in attached or detached buildings a 4 wire feeder is now required in either situation. They removed the exception to use a 3 wire feeder to a detached structure panelboard if there are no other metallic paths between the dwelling with the service equipment and detached building.

[Jay Yoder]

Roger,
That was a great graphic! That showed what I was afraid of! Looks like I need diff wire at the minimum. I wont change it now, but will if i need to for the FHA guy. it is about $ which is what triggered the refi. The other issue is that the main panel is tiny! it is 100a and packed full...I know I need to upgrade, so if i can pull some equity out there's the partial solution to all this!

[Rob Russell]

Jay,

Refi or no refi, you have an unsafe situation with the wiring that you did.

The bare conductors wrapped around the (2) inner insulated conductors are not designed to be a "neutral". The outer jacket around the cable is just that - an outer jacket, not the same material as the insulation around the (2) hots inside your cable.

You need to replace the cable - refi or no refi. Don't use anything off of that subpanel unless it's a 240v load until you replace the cable.

Rob

[Roger Frazee]

Rob

An SEU (service entrance U-Style) cable is actually designed as a service entrance cable but can be used for other applications such as branch circuits and feeders. The bare stranded of SEU is a neutral. It carries the unbalanced current from the two hot wires in service applications and it is also the equipment ground so it does double duty. So depending on what your using it for it can either be a neutral or a ground or both. If I choose to use it for a branch circuit then I can only use the bare for equipment ground... unless I am dealing with NEC 250.140 where it is allowed if it was existing prior to 1996 and the SEU cable terminates at the service equipment. I can also use SEU for a 3 wire feeder from service panel to sub-panel in a detached building under NEC 250.32 where the bare of the SEU is the neutral and equipment ground due to the required bonding of the neutral to case at the sub-panel. I hope this isn't confusing but it is inaccurate to say that the stranded bare of SEU is ground only...it's actually designed to be the grounded conductor (neutral).

You are correct though the cable needs to be changed. There is no safety hazard in the neutral of the SEU overheating in Jays situation assuming it is sized to the calculated load of the sub-panel. The safety issue is in the event his neutral opens he will have no ground fault path and breakers in the subpanel will not trip.

[Kevin Stricker]

Jay,
I am guessing if you stop thinking about your electrical until after the refinance you probably will not have a problem....keep stressing and.....

Seriously though, if the appraiser has an issue with the wiring you should ask the lender if they can do an escrow holdback. The lender usually will allow for a certain limit ( some lenders take this up to $10,000) that can be held in escrow at the Title Company until the work is done. Usually they will ask for a bid by a licensed contractor ( doesn't mean you have to use them) and then will hold back 1.5 times that amount. Once the work is done usually the appraiser comes back out to verify and he signs off so that the Title company can release the money to you( or a contractor if you have them do it).


Good luck.

[Charles Seehuetter Panama City]

Roger,
That was a great graphic! That showed what I was afraid of! Looks like I need diff wire at the minimum. I wont change it now, but will if i need to for the FHA guy. it is about $ which is what triggered the refi. The other issue is that the main panel is tiny! it is 100a and packed full...I know I need to upgrade, so if i can pull some equity out there's the partial solution to all this!

Jay,

Talk to your local inspector. Pull the second panel and wiring out (it's got to be replaced anyway as it is not safe) and get your house refinanced. Once you have the money, have your main panel updated to a 200 AMP service then add the second panel the right way. just my $.02

Chuck

[Rob Russell]

Roger, it would have been more accurate for me to say 'are not designed to be a "neutral" in a 4-wire branch circuit or subpanel feed within the same building'. The thread is about a subpanel feed in his house, so I didn't think it appropriate to go into the other stuff you identified, although the pre-1996 exception is something I didn't know about.

The fact remains that - if Jay wants to run both 120v and 240v loads from the subpanel - he needs to replace the cable. What he has right now is a code-compliant 240v-only subpanel. If he wants to run any 120v loads out of the subpanel, he needs an insulated grounded/neutral conductor and would use the bare sheath/wrap conductor as his (equipment) grounding conductor. He can not just run a separate grounded/neutral conductor because that conductor has to be part of the cable assembly.

[Roger Frazee]

Ok Rob

I reread the entire thread and I do see now what your saying. On occassion I do miss the obvious. In the application Jay is using the cable would be incorrect as you said. And yes you cannot run another wire along side the existing cable. Sorry if I was problematic. Have a good day.

[Jay Yoder]

I guess i will have to make a stop at Lowe's eh? Oh darn...haha...I need 3conductor + ground correct? Thanks for all the input!

[Rob Russell]

I need 3conductor + ground correct?

That is absolutely correct.

[Sonny Edmonds]

I guess i will have to make a stop at Lowe's eh? Oh darn...haha...I need 3conductor + ground correct? Thanks for all the input!

But, be ready to go the whole enchilada.
Because once you start, you will probably be required to upgrade the entire electrical system in your home.
Not that that is a bad thing, mind you. But can be a much bigger (and expensive!) can of worms.
The pre-1996 circuits will have to be upgraded (Example:12/2 wGrnd) and all recepticals changed as well.

[Jay Yoder]

I called about the wire and it is $1.91/ft. not bad but not great. I would rather buy tools than wire! Who knows, with housing prices falling, I may have spend the $350 for an appraisal and this won't become an issue. We'll see.

All my outlets currently are 12-2 w/ground. Trust me, I have pulled them all out. Some previous owner actually stuffed (or shall I say CRAMMED) them full of fiberglass insulation! Not sure why, but it is amazing how much each box held! Another one of those "What were they thinking" moments. Definately a fire hazard!

[Christine Daley]

Hi,
I'm brand new here and spent the weekend reading posts in this forum. This particular thread has been the most helpful to me for what I was trying to learn and understand.
I don't want to hi-jack this thread but do have some sub-panel questions of my own--most have been answered in this thread. If you get a chance and want to help a gal out, please look for my post and answer or make suggestions. It'll have something about sub-panel in the title.
Thanks, and I look forward to all the knowledge I'm sure I'll gain here.
Chrissy

[Rob Russell]

Sonny, why would Jay need to rewire his whole house just because he added a subpanel for his workshop?

The existing main panelboard is fine as a source to feed the subpanel. The fact that all the neutral/grounded conductors and equipment grounding conductors may land on the same buss doesn't hurt anything because it sounds like it's his service equipment and that's where the bonding is done anyway.

He's not touching any other part of his house's wiring system. Yeah, if he were putting in a new bedroom, that would need to meet current code which means AFCI breakers (and probably hard-wired smoke detectors, although that's building code not electrical code). If he gutted and redid his kitchen, he'd need to meet current code with the counter receptacles. None of that's the case here.