Any drawbacks to Sliding Table Saw Combo machines (like Felder)?

I've been looking at the Felder/Hammer C3 and similar combo machines with sliding table saw, shaper, planer, jointer, and mortiser. They look amazing to me, but I'm trying to get a feel for whether there are drawbacks other than price.

I would really like to be able to save the space of all those separate tools. Can I really get rid of a miter saw, router table, and jointer and planer? Or is there something you can't do with them? The shaper, in particular, I have no experience with. Will it do everything a router table would? Can I get rid of coping sleds and table saw sleds and all that, or will I still need them? Do they end up compromising on quality or ease of use?

Thanks everyone,
Matt

I spent 25 years with cabinet shop Powermatic tools, PM66, Shaper, Planer, Jointer, Dual Drum sander and Bandsaw. As well as a large 14" Dewalt RAS and other assorted separates. I was able to keep all but the sander stationary in my garage shop. In 2009 I sold the PM66 and PM26 and bought a Felder KF700SP. I totally love the sliding saw and I love the shaper. I just don't love them in one machine. I would still make the compromise of having a combo machine but I much prefer separates. I'm moving and will have a much larger shop this year. One of the first changes I will make is to purchase a stand alone shaper.

I had separate machines for years. But not too long ago consolidated into a 20x24ft shop, and decided to go the combo route. Note mine is a CU300 smart.

"Can I really get rid of a miter saw, router table, and jointer and planer?"

imo, yes and no. I have a miter saw but do not have it setup in a miterstation for cutting long pieces. So I cut down full length boards on the slider with the outrigger (works great), or if some other obstacle in the way and I dont have the swing clearance, I chop it with a small battery powered circ saw then finish it on the tablesaw. I prefer finish cuts on the tablesaw due to using stops since most times there is more than one piece so repeatability of using a stop is critical (and again I dont have a miter station). Also note I leave the outrigger on almost all the time. (some do not which saves even more space)

I kept the router table and with the variety of bits, and the smaller work that I still do, and do not plan on getting rid of the router table any time soon. I have used the shaper mostly for rabbeting and grooving (and some profiling). Anywhere i might previously use a dado cutter I now think first doing on the shaper. Yes I have to bolt down the fence and connect the dust collection when I do it. Its not 'too' big a hassle but might depend on how often you go back and forth. Note I do not have a power feeder but may soon, and if putting the feeder on and off I would say definitely a stand alone shaper if you have room. Used shapers are cheap.

The jointer/planer works well. It has tersa knives (personally prefer sharpening my own but they are what they are). You have to lower the table all the way down to flip it over to jointing mode, and the table saw fence has to be removed. This is a peeve (to take the TS fence off each time). May be different on different brands. But also there are many times during a project where I just want to straighten the edge of a single board then rip on the TS. pita to switchover then switch back. In fact, I have considered a small tabletop jointer just for these small jobs. So again if I had room I would separate. And at a minimum, would try to separate the TS from a J/P combo unit.

Also note that I generally do not map out and design and plan a project from start the end all up front. I am an engineer by training and prefer that my shop time is spent with more flexibility/freeflow. If I were making a living of it I would feel differently. So my workflow is by definition, frequently interrupted.

Sleds and fixtures and other peripherals - I think you will likely have about the same number of these items they will just be different than the cabinet saw versions. I do swap dust collection pickup between the machine functions and dust collection is another item that gets in the way of different functions - you pretty much have to put it back to TS mode after using the planer or shaper (you cant really leave the planer or shaper setup and still use the TS other than very small items).

Quality wise is not a compromise. Space saving is significant.

The only downside I can think of is there is a learning curve. Some folks will cite "changeover", but honestly, outside of a production shop, the very short amount of time required to move to a different function is minimal. As long as you go into the purchase with the mindset that you are willing to learn a few new ways to do things, you'll very likely enjoy having the full combo. I would have gone that route if my shop's physical configuration would have supported it, but I still embraced the combo idea with a sliding saw and a J/P combo alongside of it. You net big capacities in a compact space as well as high quality.

I have a Hammer B3 Winner saw/shaper and a Hammer A3-31 jointer planer in a small shop.

They replaced General cabinet saw, shaper, jointer and planer.

I would never go back, I don't need a mitre saw either.

Most of the time the outrigger isn't on my saw, I only put it on when cutting larger sheet goods, or large solid wood pieces.

The increase in capacity, capability, accuracy, safety and space savings will make it a worthwhile investment for you.........Regards, Rod.

P.S. A Fritz und Franz jig is the only jig I have for the machines, I make tenons on the shaper using a tenon hood and table accessory, as well I have a hold down clamp, a ripping shoe, a curve guard for the shaper and of course a stock feeder on a flip up bracket.

I have a Felder cf741. It is an incredible machine and I vastly prefer it to a cabinet machine. I still use a router table but prefer the shaper. Setup time on the shaper is longer, tooling is more expensive, but the results are vastly superior. Changeover is the drawback to the combo machine. You generally can plan around it, but if you have shaper setup and need to use the saw because you didn’t prepare enough stock or screwed up a piece, it’s damn inconvenient. But the space saving and expense of separates makes a bit of inconvenience more palatable. I find fewer issues between the jointer and planer, or between the saw/shaper and the j/p.

Now, if I had my 1500 sqft shop, separates would be the way to go.

btw, I do not own nor do I intend to own a miter saw.

mike

I have no experience with combination machines (other than to want one), but... the combination machines that incorporate the table-saw can be heavy, and then some, and might weigh into your decision.

Combo machines depreciate quickly as people enter the hobby and use them lightly or move to separates. A lightly used Felder 700 can sell for less than a new Hammer if you watch the market. There is a 2007 Felder in CA that has never been run for sale. They do come up and are a heavier build and one of the best used machine values out there. Same for the Minimax combos. Dave

Felder has a bunch of machines on warehouse clearance. Some look new and some used or demo. Might be worth a look.
https://www.felder-group.com/us-us
https://www.number-1-mm.com/en-us

I have the hammer A3-31 jointer/planer and now that I have it dialed in I love it. Only change I would ever consider is a stand alone planer if I had space, but for my 440 sq ft space it’s great. Also just got a used Felder KF500 Pro Saw/shaper and as I’ve been looking at a power feeder for the shaper, I’ve sort of been wishing it was a full combo so the feeder could also serve the jointer. That feature to me seems like a great function on a full combo.

How big is your space? If you are in 500 sqft, then yes, i think those combo units are fantastic and efficient. If you have 1000+, then i would be less inclined to go with one of the 5 function machines. I have a saw/shaper and like everyone else said, if i could have a separate shaper of the same quality, i would in a heartbeat. For me, it was a question of combo shaper or no shaper. As Dave mentions and i recently brought up in another thread, these things can be had at great prices from time to time.

https://cincinnati.craigslist.org/tl...813426491.html

Thats a 10' slider, guessing 5hp shaper, 16" jointer/planer, mortiser, and feeder with a ton of accessories/tooling for under $10k. Its hard to argue with the the capabilities:cost ratio on most of the used combo machines. However, if i had a warehouse shop, would i really want to deal with removing the guard and jointer fence to crosscut a sheet of ply? Or keep moving the saw rip fence to the jointer and back again? Or attach and detach the shaper hood and lose my settings? There are a lot of drawbacks to these machines that most pros would lose their minds over. Still, a slider, shaper, 16" jointer, 16" planer, and mortiser in a two car garage would be incredibly tight as separates.

Long story short, id rather have the above versus a 10" cabinet saw, 8" jointer, and 15" four post planer.

Wow, for $8k that’s a deal. Only real problem I see is getting it out of the sellers basement. LOL. :)

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Originally Posted by Patrick Kane

How big is your space? If you are in 500 sqft, then yes, i think those combo units are fantastic and efficient. If you have 1000+, then i would be less inclined to go with one of the 5 function machines. I have a saw/shaper and like everyone else said, if i could have a separate shaper of the same quality, i would in a heartbeat. For me, it was a question of combo shaper or no shaper. As Dave mentions and i recently brought up in another thread, these things can be had at great prices from time to time.

https://cincinnati.craigslist.org/tl...813426491.html

Thats a 10' slider, guessing 5hp shaper, 16" jointer/planer, mortiser, and feeder with a ton of accessories/tooling for under $10k. Its hard to argue with the the capabilities:cost ratio on most of the used combo machines. However, if i had a warehouse shop, would i really want to deal with removing the guard and jointer fence to crosscut a sheet of ply? Or keep moving the saw rip fence to the jointer and back again? Or attach and detach the shaper hood and lose my settings? There are a lot of drawbacks to these machines that most pros would lose their minds over. Still, a slider, shaper, 16" jointer, 16" planer, and mortiser in a two car garage would be incredibly tight as separates.

Long story short, id rather have the above versus a 10" cabinet saw, 8" jointer, and 15" four post planer.

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Originally Posted by Greg Parrish

Wow, for $8k that’s a deal. Only real problem I see is getting it out of the sellers basement. LOL. :)

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My house cat and I moved mine by ourselves.

Nothing to it, winch does the work..............Rod.