Interested in Tenoning on the Shaper - how to evaluate machine tooling capabilities?

I adopted this shaper/feeder ( SCM L’invincibile T100 ) nearly a year ago and it’s been my first experience with shapers. I have been very pleased with the speed, efficiency and accuracy of rabbeting, smaller tenoning w/ shop made sled and grooving between acquiring and using a 125mm shear cutting rabbeting block and a 140 mm adjustable groover. Tenons are obviously smaller (cabinet doors sized) and I am flipping parts and cutting one face at a time of a centered tenon.

I want to explore the potential of cutting larger tenons in one pass with either tenoning discs or potentially saw blades (if need be) mounted with spacers. The saw blades are less preferred as I would still need to do the shoulder cuts elsewhere in a another operation / set up. It would be amazing to have 3-4” of tenon cutting capacity from the shaper set up for passage / entry door rails. I do a variety of joinery size sizes and there is rarely a standard unless it’s doors.

How do I know what the reasonably tooling capacity of this class of machine is and where the line is? Or does it make more sense to eventually seek out a larger class machine with sliding table for this specific work and keep sawing larger tenons with either dado stack or bandsaw in the meantime? I don’t know if I have room in my tiny shop for more than 1 shaper.

It’s a 5HP motor, 1 1/4” spindle with less than half a thousandth of runout. The table is dipped 2 thousandths somewhat close to the feed area (About 6 o clock standing in front of the machine in relation to the cutterhead.) I have not noticed this little dip affecting anything thus far. This machine is stout and probably weighs ~700 lb + if I had to guess, so beefier than it looks but obviously has limits.

Looks like the widest opening the steel fences will allow is about 10.5” which is basically the diameter once the smaller ring is taken out.

To be clear I’m talking about a pair of something like this, though I am unsure on appropriate size for this machine and then there’s the question of the best way to run the parts through without a sliding table.

https://www.whitehill-tools.com/cutt...s/tenon-discs/
- the last time I looked at this page there were larger diameter tenon discs up to 300mm or so. Not sure what happened to them.

What do you shaper guys think?

PS - the obvious answer is to just get a bigger shaper in addition to this one :D but space is limited and that would be a down the road purchase unless a deal fell into my lap.

Phillip the first thing I am curios about is the flat belt drive ,do you have a way to change speeds ? I had a friend who had an older Ema that had a 2 speed motor. The bigger tenon disks that you are talking about running would for sure need slow spindle speeds. I do not have and have never run a tenon disk like that. I think you are going to end up with another larger shaper just because of the work you are already looking at. I have a Minimax machine that is 5h.p. with a sliding table and tilting spindle. My other shaper is a Delta RS 15 ,7.5 h.p. with five speeds. I think that this would be a tenoning monster with those larger disks as long as it has a slow enough speed. It does not have a sliding table though. I am curious what others will post here and will be watching this thread with great interest.

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Originally Posted by Mike Kees

Phillip the first thing I am curios about is the flat belt drive ,do you have a way to change speeds ? I had a friend who had an older Ema that had a 2 speed motor. The bigger tenon disks that you are talking about running would for sure need slow spindle speeds. I do not have and have never run a tenon disk like that. I think you are going to end up with another larger shaper just because of the work you are already looking at. I have a Minimax machine that is 5h.p. with a sliding table and tilting spindle. My other shaper is a Delta RS 15 ,7.5 h.p. with five speeds. I think that this would be a tenoning monster with those larger disks as long as it has a slow enough speed. It does not have a sliding table though. I am curious what others will post here and will be watching this thread with great interest.

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Doh! I knew I was forgetting something...it’s a 2 speed motor - 6k and 12k rpm. I have only ever used the 6k speed with the heads I have, though the higher speed does work. That’s definitely something that I’d want eventually is a machine with more and slower speeds. Thanks Mike.

Stephenson's Spindle Moulder Handbook has a table suggesting that you could safely run a 250mm diameter replaceable indexed cutterhead like the Whitehill ones you reference at 6000 rpm. 150mm tenoning discs will be limited to about a 2" depth of cut. All modern cutters will have a max rpm stamp, so you can enquire of the vendors. I suspect 5hp is a bit light for really large tenons in one pass.

The shop I used to frequent had a pair of 9" aluminum discs that accepted corrugated back hss cutters. I believe we got them from CT Saw and Tool. I don't think they got used much- their doors are typically made with small diameter cope/stick sets or square stub tenon/groove cutters combined with spline tenons.

That is how I do them as well- my shaper is not suited to cutters over 7" d. I have a pair of custom brazed Tantung cutters made by Freeborn, 7" d. x 3/4"c.h. with 2 teeth per disc. I use a simple sled keyed to the miter gauge slot with toggle clamps and a fence-mounted hold-down. For deep cuts you want a positive clamping system- I clamp horizontally to a back fence on the sled as well as down with the Destacos. There are bolt-on tenoning tables available, and no doubt Joe Calhoon knows where to get them.

likely most of the machine manuals tell you a maximum size., they are all different my griggio has a nearly 20 inch final ring so they were expecting some honking big cutters to be used. Manual says a limit I dont remember often the manuals are on line. some heavier shapers have a top bearing support as well. speeds like Mike says a reality as well larger heads past ive seen 2,900 RPM or so and think is my lowest shaper speed.

As soon as you double up you are doubling up on the weight on the spindle compared to cut and flip plus placing that second amount of weight up higher on the spindle as well.

Thanks for the responses so far.

Kevin, I took a look in the Handbook (not sure why I didn’t do that before posting :D - when in doubt -RTFM) Best I can interpret that chart indicates somewhere in the 225-250mm area as the upper end of the range for 6k RPM in hardwood (I’m assuming with carbide cutters.)

Warren, the only manual I have a copy of is in French so not exactly sure how to interpret it fully. Also, it shows 5k/10k speeds and mine is 6k/12k but anyway. I’ll attach a photo of what I saw. Good point about the extra weight from 2 discs and one up higher.

I have seen photos of the SCMI and Panhans bolt on sliding tables from an old thread on the CWW forum (probably Joe’s photos), though I have a feeling I may have an easier time finding another suitable shaper compared to trying to track down one of those. How much do they typically go for on the used market?

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Originally Posted by Phillip Mitchell

Thanks for the responses so far.

Kevin, I took a look in the Handbook (not sure why I didn’t do that before posting :D - when in doubt -RTFM) Best I can interpret that chart indicates somewhere in the 225-250mm area as the upper end of the range for 6k RPM in hardwood (I’m assuming with carbide cutters.)

Warren, the only manual I have a copy of is in French so not exactly sure how to interpret it fully. Also, it shows 5k/10k speeds and mine is 6k/12k but anyway. I’ll attach a photo of what I saw. Good point about the extra weight from 2 discs and one up higher.

I have seen photos of the SCMI and Panhans bolt on sliding tables from an old thread on the CWW forum (probably Joe’s photos), though I have a feeling I may have an easier time finding another suitable shaper compared to trying to track down one of those. How much do they typically go for on the used market?

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A quick check of the whitehill catalog has the 200mm groover max rpm at 6500 and the 175mm tenon disc (225mm with knives) max 6000 rpm. Seems like those will be the limit.

Time for a 1500-1900lb 9-11hp machine...😆

I think Scott and Sargent have the SCM bolt on table available

https://www.scosarg.com/t130nst-slid...pindle-moulder

the run out you said is that bottom top or where on the spindle. Its low and a good number. I think the table wear around the cutter area would be normal, any machine with some miles that had a power feed it would make sense. On my T130 I can see there is wear there as the machining is partly worn away in that area. If i measured the dip its in the computer and I dont remember. I think it ran raised panels, one pass and a very large custom made panel raise.

Ill measure it as some point and likely flatten the top if need be. Machine works great. Likely could use bearings but it works great. If you are using larger heads like the Schmidt coping discs think they told me lowest speed on the shaper and they were taking around 3,000 RPM likely an 8 or 9" head maybe it was the 9" ones that I asked about.

Hi Phillip, here's the 300mm (350mm cutting circle, ie. 14"!!) disc, with a max rpm of 2500. They are pretty serious.

https://www.whitehill-tools.com/cutt...iscs/CBS008V2/

It's tough to make a suggestion sometimes, because manufacturers can put big horsepower on a machine that shouldn't really have it. Overall heft, trueness, approach to tenoning, fence opening, availability of rpm selections, table opening, tenoning hoods etc all come into play. You are on the small side for 4" tenons, both cheeks and shoulders at once I would say, though it could be done with a robust stock holder and attention to what the machine is telling you. You can get 87mm (about 3.5") DOC with the 175mm discs but the machine has to be tight and running very true, on hard ground.

On the other hand, having another machine in the shop for big tenoning might be a good idea.

I have pics of my Panhans bolt on system on the Canadian site and my Instagram. SCMi still sells them new. Better part of 2k by the time they're in the door.

B

Thanks guys. This is why I ask folks more experienced than me! Should have thought about speed limitations on specific diameter heads - now I know to look there first.

So my assessment so far is that Jared is right, and I just need to save a bit, find a bigger machine that will still fit in my space and likely sell this T100. The spindle speed limitations in addition to lack of sliding table / expense of the auxiliary bolt on sliding table make it more economical $$ and time wise to just look for a good deal for a bigger machine with a sliding table some day.

I don’t do enough production tenon work with enough frequency to dedicate thousands to this within the structure and limitations of the current machine.

Thanks to all for the education and feel free to post more so others down the road may find some value in this thread as well.

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Originally Posted by Phillip Mitchell

Thanks guys. This is why I ask folks more experienced than me! Should have thought about speed limitations on specific diameter heads - now I know to look there first.

So my assessment so far is that Jared is right, and I just need to save a bit, find a bigger machine that will still fit in my space and likely sell this T100. The spindle speed limitations in addition to lack of sliding table / expense of the auxiliary bolt on sliding table make it more economical $$ and time wise to just look for a good deal for a bigger machine with a sliding table some day.

I don’t do enough production tenon work with enough frequency to dedicate thousands to this within the structure and limitations of the current machine.

Thanks to all for the education and feel free to post more so others down the road may find some value in this thread as well.

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That's a sane approach. In the meantime, it would probably be worth getting a mate for your 125mm cutterhead so you can do tenons within their capacity in one stroke, guaranteeing a consistent tenon thickness.

If you can get a matching cutter with opposite shear orientation that would be best, but a square cutter of the same cutting diameter will work ok.