Changing Large Scraper to Large Bedan?

I have been using a bedan on my flutes which works really good esp. when I am getting them to size. I use other tools to rough shape them.

Anyhow I purchased a large scraper 1 5/16" by 3/8". I had it cut off square on the end.It works good as is and takes small amounts like a scraper would.I was wondering if it would do better if I would shape the end like the bedan?? I know I could probably get better cuts with the gouge but the bedan has been working for me so I was wondering if the larger one would be even better.....Oh after viewing some Youtube videos I use mine upside down...It works good for me that way. (it is mainly a sizing tool)

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Originally Posted by Mike Turner

I have been using a bedan on my flutes which works really good esp. when I am getting them to size. I use other tools to rough shape them.

Anyhow I purchased a large scraper 1 5/16" by 3/8". I had it cut off square on the end.It works good as is and takes small amounts like a scraper would.I was wondering if it would do better if I would shape the end like the bedan?? I know I could probably get better cuts with the gouge but the bedan has been working for me so I was wondering if the larger one would be even better.....Oh after viewing some Youtube videos I use mine upside down...It works good for me that way. (it is mainly a sizing tool)

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Mike,

What diameter do you usually start with and what do you reduce it to? A few pictures (or better, a video) of how you work might help. Are your flutes mostly cylindrical or are they significantly curved? (If I get over your way sometime I'd love to stop in and watch!!)

I don't know exactly how you are using the bedan but I'm imagining whether it would work better or not may depend on several things. If you are using it primarily for sizing, a wider edge would certainly make a wider flat but the wider it is the more risk of it getting too aggressive and harder to control. It might catch easier or at minimum tear out grain. The tendency for tearout can also depend on the specific wood you use. I'm assuming that the bedan used for reducing diameter is by peeling, not by scraping.

If used with peeling cuts a wider edge might need to be sharpened to a smaller included angle than the typical bedan (and wide parting tool), more like a skew chisel. I do often make peeling cuts with a skew chisel held with the edge parallel to the axis (easiest with a non-skewed skew chisel!) but usually with narrower skews such as 1/2" rather than my 1-1/4". With a wider skew it is usually better to start at one end and cut down little then move the skew to cut down a little more. With a skew I can reduce a 1/2" wide section of a 2" diameter blank to 1" in just a few seconds by peeling in most woods, quickly shaping the whole cylinder. (At pretty high speeds.) Then I make planing cuts with a skew to smooth the entire cylinder (often using a wider skew than I use for peeling).

Very wide edges are indeed used for peeling very long cylinders - for example consider veneer cutting machines. I think the edges used there, however, are sharp knives. A wide bedan edge might work better the smaller the included angle. Over 1.5" just seems awfully wide to me, especially if used for sizing! It would be easy enough to try then grind it back to a scraper if needed. It might be perfect if used more like a skew though.

If it is primarily used for flattening and smoothing after reducing the diameter by peeling, an edge that wide ground and used as a negative rake scraper (perhaps about 40 degrees) might be excellent. (presented horizontally, flat on the rest) I've resharpend most of my big scrapers into NRS, straight and curved. I do sometimes slightly curve the sharp corners of flat scrapers so I don't accidentally scratch a line with one while moving it down the piece.

BTW, as for bedan use in general I don't know what you mean by "upside down" but it seems that the French (e.g., Jean-Françcois Escoulen) often use the bedan with the ground bevel up while American turners use it with the bevel down. It makes no difference to the wood but it does make a difference to the way the tool is held for a specific height of the tool rest. It appears the French way allows better tool control for curving and shaping and detail work while the bevel-down way might be better when used as a wide parting tool. It works well when planing (as a skew) held either way.

JKJ

There is no "upside down" French turners usually use it bevel-up while many others (I want to say "English style") use it bevel-down. In answer to your question, the jump from a 3/8 wide tool to 1 5/16 seems to be too big. Why don't
you try a 3/4 or 1 inch wide bedan first, to see how it works?

Mike, I had watched a guy using a bedan and his was bevel up and I use mine bevel down. Seems like I had seen another using one like a while back.le back...Yeah I agree no upside down...whatever works...

I got this scraper and was wanting to give it a try like this and if it doesnt work Ill just grind it back to a scraper..

John,
I start with a blank varying from 1 1/2" square to 2" square 32" to 36" long...just depends on the flute Im maing . The flutes are mostly cylindrical. I do sometimes have them a little wider at the bottom so they are tapered sometimes. Depending on what flute I am making depends on the finished dia.They may have a 3/4" ,7/8" or 1" bore...I have no problem with my regular bedan but am trying to be more efficient esp since my hands are bothering me...arthritis.

Wow I am painfully slow.I cant rough shape mine as quick as you.But I have come a long way. I would be using mine as a neg rake scraper Im sure.Im just now getting acquainted with those. I may end up shaping this one more like that.I would use it flat on the rest like you described. (flattening and smoothing after reducing the diameter by peeling,) (I have tried the skew and it worked great butttttttttt I sometimes have a second of no concentration or something and mess up a piece.. lol..Havent lost any but had to sand it a lot thinner than normal!!!

Well, and I do plan on a video about this, I would guess that this tool you are doing is more for peeling type cuts on spindles. I do use scrapers for this cut along with more conventional tools like the SRG (spindle roughing gouge) and skews. For me, I would taper the sides of this type of scraper a bit, but it would be more of a rounding over rather than a separate bevel like is typical of the bedan. Now, for a roughing tool of that size, I would approach it with a "appetizer first, then main course" as a martial arts instructor I had used to say. You would not really want to put that much metal into a spinning piece of wood all at one time. I would nibble off square corners about 1/4 inch at a time. If you put that much into the spindle at once, you will get a lot more tear out, and that puts a lot more strain on your mount. Once you have it nibbled down to pretty close to round, or even totally round, the more broad edge can be used to smooth out shapes. If you are doing flutes, I tend to think of them pretty much as straight cylinders. I would not use a square edge much on this shape, I would want a slight curve to the edge. You can do the same thing with a skew, and even get a pretty good surface free of tool marks, and pretty much free from tear out as well, depending on the wood. Again, I would prefer a slight curve to the edge and not square across as square corners do not cut as well. The curved edge is excellent for gentle coves and beads.

robo hippy

Reed,These are pretty much cylinders with a slight taper.I rough them with the SRG and sometimes with a skew if I "feel'" it that day but I have mixed results with the skew.I know I just need more practice with it. I know I can get a great almost ready to finish surface with the skew..."sometimes".I am just not proficient or confident with it.When I got the new scraper I knew I needed to do something to it but was unsure about my whole idea.(The bedan has worked so good for me....I really use it as a sizing tool when I already have the blank round...) So I need to round over and put a slight curve to it.Should I do both sides like a negative rake scraper?? Or what angle should I grind this to? Thanks for your help !!!!!

Well, I am not a skew master or much of a spindle turner, so.... I have experimented with a NRS on spindles. My favorite is an 80/25 or 30 NRS with a burnished burr. You do a peeling cut with it, and are rubbing the bevel. I would worry that if I tried a 50 degree bevel, it would be very grabby/catchy if you come off the bevel. I have done it with a 70 degree bevel, but it makes my sphincter muscles pucker (when sphincter tightening exceeds chuck tightening, you have a problem, from Pats Fan on Woodnet). I didn't consider the skew to be a good roughing tool till I saw Eric Loffstrom use it on one of his boxes. It was a total peeling cut as in rub the bevel, raise the handle till it starts to cut. He rounded the blank taking about 1/4 inch peeling cut nibbles till it was pretty much round, then used the broad curve to smooth out all tool marks. The surface he left was good for 150 to 220 sanding. Oh, the skew is a NRS as well when you are using it for a peeling cut. I have troubles getting a smooth clean cut with a skew. I made a big step up in my skew cuts when I got a 600 grit and 1000 grit wheels, and then took the skew to the honing wheel on my Tormek, which means I wasn't sharpening it correctly. I still have trouble getting a smooth continuous cut with it though. If you use the SRG for sizing and roughing, it has a relatively small cutting edge to put into the wood, and you use a peeling cut. Most of us approach it from a square to the wood rather than at a skewed angle (which is why there are so many accidents with them when people try to use them on bowls... totally wrong presentation, but I digress....). If you rough it down to pretty close to a cylinder, this makes it easier to use the skew as a NRS in a peeling cut. I still try with the skew, but clean it up by using the skew in a peeling cut. Not as clean of a cut as the standard skew cuts, but no tool marks.

Hope this helps some.

robo hippy

I'll just say I usually use the skew for roughing spindles, unless I'm demonstrating to a beginner. It works faster and I think smoother than the roughing gouges, but I teach the SRGs to beginners, at least at first. When roughing I prefer a larger skew (at least 1") but smaller skews will work ok (depending on the diameter). It is a little easier if the skew is ground at a curve like Raffan recommends since like a roughing gouge this presents a smaller edge to the wood but I grind most of mine with a straight edge.

Most of my skews are ground at 40 degrees or less and I can't say one is grabbier than another. The bigger angles are more forgiving for beginners but the smaller angles cut cleanly. Like everything else, it probably boils down to how much one practices.

One thing I've experienced over and over - certain types of wood (and certain variations of the same species) have proven to be difficult to use with the skew, not because of grabbiness but because of chip out! For instance I have a bunch of Osage Orange from the same tree and every single piece will chip out with the same cut that is nearly glass smooth on other woods. Same with some of the purpleheart stock I have. In either case switching to a skew closer with a larger angle, say 45-50 degrees, helps a lot but doesn't fix it. For these I usually give up and use the spindle roughing gouge.

The skew is so fast, for example you can use the same tool to rough from a square, peel to diameter, then plane to a cylinder or taper. I do turn some smaller beads with the skew but I prefer the spindle gouge. Same with coves - if quite shallow I can use the skew but I prefer a small roughing gouge or spindle gouge. BTW, this is my favorite roughing gouge for small spindles - I usually use it with no handle: the Thompson 5/8" Mark St.Leger's Spindle Roughing Gouge at the bottom of this page http://thompsonlathetools.com/product-list/, the smaller one in this picture:

Attachment 375243
(The 1" is no long available, I think.)

JKJ

In my beginning years, the first video I watched was Richard Raffen. I thought every one turned like that... If I had spent half the time with a skew that I did with the bowl gouges and scrapers, I might be a lot faster. I still prefer a shear scrape for the finish cut. I don't leave any tool marks...

robo hippy

Thanks John and Reed !!!! When this weather breaks Ill give these ideas a try!!!

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Originally Posted by John K Jordan

BTW, this is my favorite roughing gouge for small spindles - I usually use it with no handle: the Thompson 5/8" Mark St.Leger's Spindle Roughing Gouge at the bottom of this page http://thompsonlathetools.com/product-list/, the smaller one in this picture: Attachment 375243 (The 1" is no long available, I think.) JKJ

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what did you use, or where did you get the ferrule for the handle on the monster scraper? I’m debating making handles or buying handles for a set of Thompson tools I just acquired as a gift.