Any Clearvue owners here running 3phase motors with vfd?

I own the CV1800 with the Leeson single phase motor. I am planning to purchase the Baldor 3 ph motor Clearvue sells unless I find something else with the same specs but in 3 phase.

I have a very knowledgeable person on the Hobby Machinist forum I am a member of that found a 5hp output variable frequency drive I am planning to run the motor on as I do not have 3 phase. My plan to deal with the noise is swap the motor and run the machine with the vfd and use a speed potentiometer to allow for variable speed. That should be a good start to dealing with the noise.

I contacted Clearvue about this and they said absolutely I can do it with no harm to the motor. Apparently Australia and countries that use 50hz have been doing this for years. Wish I had known about this when I purchased it in 2019.

Clearvue also told me they are currently working on a silencer and are claiming around a 10db drop. If that’s true I’d be interested. That and variable speed would be good for me.

I designed a noise closet but it’s going to take up to much space and have decided against it.

My questions for any owners are.
1. What model number is on the data tag of the 3ph motor? Baldor or Leeson. I can’t make it out on their site.
2. For those using variable speed how much of a reduction in noise is there. Quite a bit I would imagine.
3. Which vfd are you running?
4. Which brand and model are you using? I’m not tied to Leeson or Baldor just what Clearvue sells and so far there Baldor 3ph is the cheapest I have found it online. $950

I just received my EF5 kit with a Baldor 5HP 3-phase last Friday. The Baldor model number is CEM3613T. If you look at other motors, make sure you are getting a 3450 RPM motor. There are a LOT of 5HP motors that run only 1750 RPM. Also, the spindle/shaft has to be 1-1/8" with a 1/4" key slot. The bolt holes on other motors may not be the same. It is probably best just to buy the motor from Clearvue direct. Their price on the Baldor is actually the lowest I have seen if you do a search.

If you have another 14" space above your filters, you can put the Oneida stackable filter on top. This has been described to take the edge off the harshness of the dust collector so that it's not as invasive. I also got one of these, but I'm still waiting on my filters so I can't comment on fit/size.

https://www.oneida-air.com/dust-coll...g-sound-filter

I also plan to run a Fantech LD8 muffler on the output of the cyclone as well. You probably have seen my other discussions. I plan to run this VFD:

https://www.ato.com/5hp-vfd

It's the middle of the road price-wise. Not the cheapest Chinese level stuff, but not the super expensive stuff either. The cheaper Chinese VFDs run from $150-200. The more expensive stuff is in the $600-800 range.

I understand you don't have space to build a full sound closet. If your filter is closer to the wall, one thing you can do is build an acoustic panel on each side of the filter. Build two panels that are about 18" wide by 72" tall out of 2" stiff-board fiber based insulation (I'm using Owens 703). You can use really light molding from Home Depot as an edge frame (just to help hold the pieces of fiberglass together). Use 3M Super 77 spray glue to glue the cut panels together and the side frames on. Then wrap with some fabric (I use Guilford of Main). You can spray glue the fabric or just staple to the wood frame. DO NOT USE fiberglass with a foil front (like the FRK) because it only reflects sound.

https://www.atsacoustics.com/cat--Fi...ards--106.html


Just putting a acoustic panel on each side of the filter will definitely reduce the amount of noise. It blocks direct noise from the filter and also blocks the sound waves so that they do not bounce off the wall. The wall actually boosts the db noise because it acts as a "reflector/horn".

Make sure you leave a 2-3" space between the panels and filter to allow for airflow.

I'm in the middle of my Clearvue build, but I will post pictures/description once it's all done (hopefully in a couple weeks).

When I became the CV distributor in Australia we were the first to use a VFD on Clearvues due to our domestic supply being 230V/50hz but there is a backstory to this surrounding the Clearvue Max with a 16" impeller.

The Max was designed to flow about the same amount of air at 50hz as the 15" 1800 at 60hz and it was primarily aimed at the rest of the world market and not the domestic US market but that plan went sideways as it was always going to because bigger is always better and it became a good seller in the US. The bigger the impeller the slower it can be run so that reduces the primary noise of the Cyclone but it does not reduce the air noise running through the duct work and some have commented on that, unfortunately if you move a lot of air that creates noise and there is no way around that.

If I was designing a cyclone today it would have a 17" impeller and in the average workshop could be run at under 50hz using a VFD making it very quite when running but able to be run faster if needed. This would make a flexible cyclone to fit most hobby workshops and have excellent performance. I will admit that when I started my 1800 for the first time I thought it was going to explode because I had never heard anything so loud. Making a cyclone with a 17" impeller would not be much more expensive but a 5hp motor might not drive it at full speed so the motor would add cost. A 5hp motor could be used if the VFD was speed limited to suit the maximum current draw of the motor and that is only a minute of programming so not a big deal.

A point made in an earlier post about the shaft key, using a VFD means you don't need a keyway due to the soft start but I always fit it anyway. The VFD has changed everything about dust extraction and these days and using single phase is very limiting along with the realisation that specifying by impeller size rather than HP/CFM is the wrong way to look at the problem. If I was buying a Clearvue now it would have a three phase motor on it end of story.

The three phase motor supplied is a Baldor as suitable Leeson three phase motors were banned and withdrawn from the market many years ago. That may have change recently but I don't think so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aaron Inami

I just received my EF5 kit with a Baldor 5HP 3-phase last Friday. The Baldor model number is CEM3613T. If you look at other motors, make sure you are getting a 3450 RPM motor. There are a LOT of 5HP motors that run only 1750 RPM. Also, the spindle/shaft has to be 1-1/8" with a 1/4" key slot. The bolt holes on other motors may not be the same. It is probably best just to buy the motor from Clearvue direct. Their price on the Baldor is actually the lowest I have seen if you do a search.

If you have another 14" space above your filters, you can put the Oneida stackable filter on top. This has been described to take the edge off the harshness of the dust collector so that it's not as invasive. I also got one of these, but I'm still waiting on my filters so I can't comment on fit/size.

https://www.oneida-air.com/dust-coll...g-sound-filter

I also plan to run a Fantech LD8 muffler on the output of the cyclone as well. You probably have seen my other discussions. I plan to run this VFD:

https://www.ato.com/5hp-vfd

It's the middle of the road price-wise. Not the cheapest Chinese level stuff, but not the super expensive stuff either. The cheaper Chinese VFDs run from $150-200. The more expensive stuff is in the $600-800 range.

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So far I have found that the CEMT3613T has two other variants VEM3613T is footless (no base) and the CEM3663T which is a cast iron version. Haven’t found any cheaper online and I’m skeptical about spending a grand for a motor on eBay. I can only imagine what the shipping companies will do to that heavy motor protected by a card board box.

When my CV1800 arrived with all the boxes my Leeson motor was in a plywood box. Well protected.

I’ve seen that Fantech silencer online. Spoke with Clearvue the other day to get a shipping estimate for the Baldor motor and they said that coming soon they are launching a new filter silencer. They are claiming a reduction of 13 decibels. If I get 10 I will be satisfied. Below are the specs they gave me.

· Weight – 18 lbs
· Length – 23 5/8″
· Outside Diameter – 12 1/2
· 22 Gauge Galvanized Steel
· Average of 13 db reduction in noise

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aaron Inami

I understand you don't have space to build a full sound closet. If your filter is closer to the wall, one thing you can do is build an acoustic panel on each side of the filter. Build two panels that are about 18" wide by 72" tall out of 2" stiff-board fiber based insulation (I'm using Owens 703). You can use really light molding from Home Depot as an edge frame (just to help hold the pieces of fiberglass together). Use 3M Super 77 spray glue to glue the cut panels together and the side frames on. Then wrap with some fabric (I use Guilford of Main). You can spray glue the fabric or just staple to the wood frame. DO NOT USE fiberglass with a foil front (like the FRK) because it only reflects sound.

https://www.atsacoustics.com/cat--Fi...ards--106.html


Just putting a acoustic panel on each side of the filter will definitely reduce the amount of noise. It blocks direct noise from the filter and also blocks the sound waves so that they do not bounce off the wall. The wall actually boosts the db noise because it acts as a "reflector/horn".

Make sure you leave a 2-3" space between the panels and filter to allow for airflow.

I'm in the middle of my Clearvue build, but I will post pictures/description once it's all done (hopefully in a couple weeks).

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Excellent recommendation on the mention of the sound waves bouncing in that corner and reflecting like a horn. Never even thought about that. I plan to address that issue once I have the new motor installed. I plan to cut a 22 x 22 square in my ceiling(attic above garage) and that will provide additional height for the taller Baldor motor. I’m going to hang the cyclone from in between two ceiling joists. Found some hanging vibration isolators on McMaster Carr. And then drywall up between the joists making that 22 x 22 area an extension of the garage. I’ll insulate the new cubby box inside the attic with that 2” insulation board. Wish I could go longer but there is Romeo’s wiring and really don’t want to have to move it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris Parks

When I became the CV distributor in Australia we were the first to use a VFD on Clearvues due to our domestic supply being 230V/50hz but there is a backstory to this surrounding the Clearvue Max with a 16" impeller.

The Max was designed to flow about the same amount of air at 50hz as the 15" 1800 at 60hz and it was primarily aimed at the rest of the world market and not the domestic US market but that plan went sideways as it was always going to because bigger is always better and it became a good seller in the US. The bigger the impeller the slower it can be run so that reduces the primary noise of the Cyclone but it does not reduce the air noise running through the duct work and some have commented on that, unfortunately if you move a lot of air that creates noise and there is no way around that.

If I was designing a cyclone today it would have a 17" impeller and in the average workshop could be run at under 50hz using a VFD making it very quite when running but able to be run faster if needed. This would make a flexible cyclone to fit most hobby workshops and have excellent performance. I will admit that when I started my 1800 for the first time I thought it was going to explode because I had never heard anything so loud. Making a cyclone with a 17" impeller would not be much more expensive but a 5hp motor might not drive it at full speed so the motor would add cost. A 5hp motor could be used if the VFD was speed limited to suit the maximum current draw of the motor and that is only a minute of programming so not a big deal.

A point made in an earlier post about the shaft key, using a VFD means you don't need a keyway due to the soft start but I always fit it anyway. The VFD has changed everything about dust extraction and these days and using single phase is very limiting along with the realisation that specifying by impeller size rather than HP/CFM is the wrong way to look at the problem. If I was buying a Clearvue now it would have a three phase motor on it end of story.

The three phase motor supplied is a Baldor as suitable Leeson three phase motors were banned and withdrawn from the market many years ago. That may have change recently but I don't think so.

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Definitely gonna use the shaft key Chris. But good tip tho about the soft start. Honestly I had no idea you guys were using these with vfd’s all these years. Make sense. Good to know I’m not in uncharted territory and many have done this.

Any thoughts on how low on hertz I can go? 15hz? Or does it matter long as the impeller is still spinning.

I currently have a 3-phase motor waiting to be swapped for the single phase on my Clearvue, just need to get a VFD and make the time to work on it. Another attractive feature of using the VFD is unlimited starts per hour. I think they recommend no more than five starts per hour with a single phase motor.
I also hope the 3-phase motor runs cooler, mine is like a heater when run for long time periods. That’s no good in the summer!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bryan Cleveland

Definitely gonna use the shaft key Chris. But good tip tho about the soft start. Honestly I had no idea you guys were using these with vfd’s all these years. Make sense. Good to know I’m not in uncharted territory and many have done this.

Any thoughts on how low on hertz I can go? 15hz? Or does it matter long as the impeller is still spinning.

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To

When buying a VFD always make sure it has vector control to prevent torque loss at low speeds. Low speed also affects motor cooling so that needs monitoring as well. running at low speed depends on how big the impeller is, the bigger the more air it will flow and the slower you can run it to achieve the necessary air flow. I had a lot of customers who ran their CV Max at 50hz and that speed did the job for them but only a particle meter will tell you how low you can go. I have become a fan of using a big impeller and turning it slower but that also means if more flow is required the speed can be raised at any time. I doubt 15hz is achievable or even practical due to motor cooling and air flow requirements. I will do some sound level tests on mine and get back with the results to give you some idea on sound v's speed.

Here are the DB levels with a background ambient level of 35DB. My system is a CV1800 with a 15" impeller and all the gates were closed during the test. The reason for that is the gates are automatic and operate when a machine is running and I did not want the machine noise to mask the DE noise. I normally run this system at 70hz.

70hz - 69db

60hz - 66db

50hz - 62db

40hz - 57db

30db - 52db

The changes at each step might not sound much but noise level squares as it gets louder or softer and below 50hz it really gets noticeably quieter hence my reasoning to use a bigger impeller and run it at a lower speed. In Australia nearly all WW workshops are stand alone buildings and basement workshops simply don't exist. We do not use filter stacks and simply exhaust to atmosphere as workshops are not heated or cooled as a rule and the main reason noise suppression is needed in most cases is to avoid harassing the neighbours. I have had customers tell me that they did not think a Clearvue was excessively noisy but I reckon they must have had hearing damage to think that.

Chris,

How far from the DC was the meter when the measurements were taken?

Regards,

Phil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bryan Cleveland

Definitely gonna use the shaft key Chris. But good tip tho about the soft start. Honestly I had no idea you guys were using these with vfd’s all these years. Make sense. Good to know I’m not in uncharted territory and many have done this.

Any thoughts on how low on hertz I can go? 15hz? Or does it matter long as the impeller is still spinning.

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The standard Clearvue motor is a 3450 RPM motor. The motor has to run fast enough for the fan to push enough air over/through the motor for cooling. If you look at the fact that we have motors that run at 1750 RPM, then the assumption is that you might be fine running the 3450 RPM motor at half speed (i.e. 30 Hz). However, you also need to make sure there is enough velocity in your duct to pull the dust all the way through.

I have seen other types of tools that have much lower settings for minimum speed. For example, the Grizzly South Bend SB1097 edge sander runs off a Kinco VFD. The minimum speed appears to be 600 RPM. HOWEVER, I think the edge sender is a much lighter load for startup and the lower power 3HP motor has heat-sink fins on the motor housing itself. The Clearvue Baldor motor does not have these heat sinks which means the heat dissipation is much less. You need a lot more forced air to keep the Baldor motor cool enough.

The Harvey G700 dust collector has a variable speed VFD. The speed settings range from 40 to 70 (which I interpret as 40 Hz to 70 Hz on the electrical side). A 40 Hz speed may be a good lower limit for this to still allow for good cooling on the motor.

Another reason that these motors are stressed upon startup is the mass of the steel impellers. These are very heavy items and it requires a lot of current/torque to get the impeller ramped up to speed. This is compounded by the amount of air being pushed through the cyclone (which increases the current load as well). I don't think "unlimited starts per hour" is something that you can readily assume here, but I think you will be able to get a lot more than only 4 starts per hour using a VFD. You still have to run the motor for maybe 5 minutes or so to cool it down somewhat. If you start and stop the motor every minute continuously, I think that you are likely to have problems.

Probably a good method is to startup the dust collector with all blastgates closed. Then only open a blastgate after the dust collector has ramped up for 10-20 seconds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philip Glover

Chris,

How far from the DC was the meter when the measurements were taken?

Regards,

Phil

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About two meters, the distance is not so important as the difference between the readings is. Sound level measurement is like rounding up cats unfortunately, I quietened down the exhaust from 92db to 68db but the exhaust on mine goes through the workshop wall to atmosphere and to use that as a comparison might be meaningless except to say a 20db drop is possible.

A few further comments here, the start amps on a single phase 5hp Leeson motor (the original CV supplied motor) is north of 80 amps @ 230V and using a VFD it drops to about 16 amps @ 230V for about 2 seconds with about a 10 second ramp time, a longer ramp time will increase the start current of course. These numbers were done using a Leeson motor on a 15'' CV 1800. The Max is only a little higher but still under 20 amps. These motors are primarily cooled by an internal fan and if that runs too slow the motor over heats. Surface mounted sensors can be bought these days and I am guessing could be hooked up to a vfd but others might comment on that assumption.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris Parks

... These motors are primarily cooled by an internal fan and if that runs too slow the motor over heats. Surface mounted sensors can be bought these days and I am guessing could be hooked up to a vfd but others might comment on that assumption.

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I think we are closely aligned on most benefits of VFD use, current inrush, starts/hr, etc..

As for low end speeds, in a typical indoor application, a standard duty motor can generally be run at 25% (15hz) and still maintain acceptable cooling in most loading situations. Outdoors in the deserts of W. Texas and S.E. New Mexico, we keep motors at 45% or more - and principal application is centrifugal pumps, where amps::rpm ratios will be close to DC applications. Outdoor motors are of course TEFC, but I have seen little difference in thermal management on indoor ODP. If you NEED to run a motor at <25% continuously, look into ‘inverter-duty’ motors.

I mentioned in another thread that I run my VFD to 5hp EF-5 DC at 60hz, and never touch the speed. Certainly, you can drop the speed for noise reduction, but I have not really tested air flow (I did adjust it down to 50% and hold a calibrated hand over a 4” inlet - - I was not impressed!). All this to say you can run them slower - I just don’t know a good reason to do so with a DC. As speed into the cyclone drops, so too does separation of fines.

On temperature sensors, I think surface mounted sensors will be of little benefit. The insulation on the windings can break down long before damaging heat is conducted to the motorÂ’s housing.

If you are sufficiently worried about thermal protection, I’d recommend ordering a motor with T/Cs embedded in the windings. These are common in larger motors, and I’ve never tried, but assume they can be custom ordered in ‘shop sized’ (3-5hp?) motors. (Then order a PLC to scale, monitor, alarm, and interlock to the VFD.:eek: )