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While I was training to be a machinist in the Navy the instructors stressed not to be any more accurate than what the print called for. They said you'd be wasting time.
Is it okay to not sand the surfaces of a piece that will never be seen to the same finish as the surfaces that will be seen or would it be shoddy work? You know the back of a cabinet, bottom or back edge of a shelf etc. Am I burning up sand paper and time making all surfaces seen or unseen the same finish?
This is completely up to you. There are, of course, full-show pieces that are finished on all sides as they may stand with different sides exposed as in the case where a table or book case are used as an area divider. For things against the wall, I finish. For the exterior bottoms of drawers, not so much. Without starting the whole "finishing all surfaces" debate about moisture absorption and the many examples of antiques with unfinished interiors . . . I use a seal coat of shellac on most surfaces that will not be fully finished. I do this because I like to.
If speed and effort reduction are your goal, there are plenty of areas of the craft to short cut. Many folks sand only to 150 and apply a liberal film of poly to yield a smooth surface. Others sand to 600 and use a thin top coat. These differences serve each person in order to meet their goal; insides of kitchen drawers being sealed to allow cleaning for example. You are free to set yours ;-)
An operation like finish sanding is one of those things that must be "exquisite" on the show surfaces because it really can make a different to the end results. Not sanding to that degree on unseen components is not in any way, shape or form a failure of quality if it doesn't affect joinery and even there, 80-100 grit is more than sufficient and actually preferred to give "tooth" to the glue during application.
There may be some situations where for cleanliness or other reasons that the interior of something might actually get finishes (in the context of a coating), but since it's not for appearance, sanding to the nth degree isn't necessary.
Unless you're really anal, of course...and staying happy is the bottom line. :)
Apples vs oranges talking about accuracy and asking about aesthetics. I've always done the best I can do on furniture. I build it to last for generations, and I don't want any great grandchildren thinking I was a slacker. A couple sheets of sandpaper and 10 hours is really marginal vs 100 years of use. No such thing as "good enough" for me, not the way I was taught.
I think guys sanding the bottoms of their table tops to 220+grit need to rethink their approach. I mean, good on them, but really that is a waste of time that will never ever be appreciated. I sand the bottoms of my table tops to my finished top grit, but only in a 6" perimeter. For the bottom of drawer bottoms, backs of drawer backs, leg/feet bottoms etc, i rarely take them passed 100-120 grit. Heck, i didnt even sand the bottom of my Maloof rocker to 1000 grit like the rest of the chair. I think i went to 150 grit to remove the tool marks and called it a day.
I've seen 200 year old furniture that was beautifully finished, everywhere you could see. Leaving rough planing on the non-show surfaces. Not always the case.. but.. clearly there are/were many craftsmen that didn't 'waste time' where it wasn't needed.
Not really for anyone to say whether you are wasting your time. Their opinion is based on their biases. It's all about how you want others to view and appreciate your work. Personally, I like the idea of someone in the future with maybe some appreciation of fine craftsmanship checking the back of a piece I did and finding raised panels instead of a 1/4" MDF backboard tacked on with staples. Did I have to do that? No, the piece would be functional with the cheap MDF. Did I waste my time doing that? Not as far as I'm concerned because I was happy with the piece I built.
I'm with you on the raised panels, but I'd probably leave them less finished on the inside, just to remind someone what it takes to go from that roughness (or worse) to the finish on the outside.
-- Andy - Arlington TX
I find that if guests drink till they drop, they can be very critical of the undersides of tabletops. Assuming they are conscious, however.
Personally, I finish top and bottom in a similar fashion, if for no other reason to see how the finish looks on the non-show side first.
You provide the level of finish you are being paid for not what "you want" to deliver or what "you feel" it should be.
In the grand scheme of things, other than on very large pieces, the cost and effort of sanding a part all sides is not much more. But on an entire job/project, yes, it its ridiculous if your not being compensated for it. The back of a dresser that will be against the wall, the bottom of drawers, backs of kitchen cabinets, heck no,.. those are left. A bespoke hall table or sideboard? Perhaps the back would get sanded and finished as the rest with a slight downgrade. I mean are you going to hand scrape the bottom/back of a drawer or the bottom/back of a cabinet that will never be seen or fastened to a wall? That would be a fools errand unless your working for a blank check customer who is likely as insane as you are.
Things like adjustable shelves, some tops, and so on, are just easier to finish all sides mainly with regards to being able to apply equal finish to all sides of the parts (the more important component of longevity) but the entire subject boils down to you finish the part in direct relation to what your being paid for. If your building it for yourself, you can go to any level you want but hopefully not a lower level than will last.
This tends to start arguments between the romantic hobbyist perfectionists and the people who value time and money. You don't generally have a lot of people in business making arguments on the perfection side because they tend to be already out of business (laugh, cry, or get angry if you wish, but that is the truth).
There isn't a universal right answer, as the means depend on the end goal. If you do woodworking to escape from a half a$$ed world where you see shoddy construction everywhere and want to be responsible for something that is actually well made for a change, that is one goal. If you need to get something done on time and on budget, for say a customer paying X dollars that needs it by Y date, or need to get something done before your spouse loses patience with you and just orders the item on Overstock.com so the family has a dinner table to eat on, that is a different goal.
In the Navy example, it doesn't do the supervisor or the Navy any good if someone takes an hour to do the part ten times better than it needs to be, if they actually needed 10 parts in that hour. Even the Navy doesn't have unlimited time and money. Sometimes more of less good is better than less of more good. I find clamps to be like that :)
If you are doing work for yourself, do it however you want. For guidance, which you understandably seek, you will get different opinions from each camp. I tend to be in the "skimp on the inside to concentrate more on the outside that will be seen" camp, but not necessarily in every case. Also, what one person considers "skimping" another will consider extravagant overdoing.
I, for example, would never sand an interior piece that would not be seen, unless I had a specific reason too, like checking a grain pattern, seeing how a finish will react, etc. I often will test hand plane an interior side of a piece to better understand the face side grain, occasionally it goes so well it becomes the face side.
Other folks want perfection inside and out, that is what they like, so that is what they do. Myself, I don't have the time or temperament for that sort of thing. It all depends on what you want out of your woodworking.
Just don't be too hard on the folks that actually have to produce a product at a price point to stay in business. Other people are making those decisions for them by what they are willing to pay. And that goes for both Ikea and the people whose work shows up in glossy woodworking mags like FWW; they both are doing what they need to do to survive.
There is a massive amount of grey area in there that is generally ignored to simplify pushing people out to the extremes. The vast majority (especially those who are parting with their hard earned cash) will land far beyond either of those extremes. Sadly the options of the extremes being posted broadly are what make people think they cant have a piece built by a local shop and they wind up at the home center or import furniture store.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Seemann
More often than not, the back sides of beautiful millwork form 150 years ago was mostly just left sawn.
Here we go again. Why do woodworkers need a definitive answer to these kinds of things and why are some people so quick to provide one?
Sometimes the piece demands finishing even the unseen parts, sometimes not. Why is that obvious only to me.
I have made enough tables to know that if the bottom is not finished properly, you will feel it with your fingers.
If I know my audience or client is discerning or just deserves my attention to the tiniest details, I will go all the way.
I totally agree. For whatever reason, the folks with moderate opinions tend to stay out of these discussions, probably because the most extreme tend to be the most passionate and inclined to post. I like my stuff to be well made, but it doesn't need perfection. I have no delusions or need to build something to last generations. I have about a half dozen pieces of furniture I made 25 years ago that I wish would magically disappear from my house, because I don't need or want them anymore. I also have some very well made family heirlooms I also wish would magically disappear for the same reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Bolton
There is a lot in the middle ground, you see it in the range of prices for items, from on the cheap big box, to mid grade furniture store stuff, to high end glossy magazine works of art.
I do wish that people had better awareness of what they could get locally rather than defaulting to big box or import furniture. No one can compete with the low end, but you would hope there would be some market for mid to high grade at least.
It's a reasonable question, and as the answers suggest, an individual choice for each situation. But it definitely is not a question of how good a job you are doing, as in some situations overdoing the finish is less good. For instance, finishing the insides of drawers with oil based finishes can make them stink for decades. But you should be aware of all the ways a user can interact with all the parts of the piece (touching reachable parts of the bottom of a table, for instance) and make a choice you think is appropriate.
The upside of not being in the Navy; you get to "waste" your time anyway you want. You get to make all of the decisions. you don't need any ones permission or approval.
If you are making for yourself; If it's okay with you ... then it's okay with you!
If you are doing it for a customer; then it has to be good enough for them. That's all it has to be.
You can of course do much more if you like, the customer wont stop you; they wont pay you any more, but they wont stop you from doing more.
Think of sanding places where no one will see as gluing $100 bills (Your $100 bills.) on the back of a built in wall unit, knowing that you customers will never know they are there.
If that makes you happy who can argue with you.
Reason for me asking is that while I'm working on a shelf project for my wife's boss I got to thinking how other people, hobbyists, professionals, anal people with OCD finish their projects. I'm not getting paid anything for this project, it's just something my wife asked me to do for the office where she works.
I'm definitely finishing all surfaces whether you can see them or not, and I don't feel that I'm wasting my time. I believe that when people look at something I've made it should be a good thing when they say "look at the job he did on this".
Was just curious how other people did it.
Jerry, life is short.. make your own rules, and always remember the wisdom of the disco.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_ATuOsjaIU
i usually finish all sides - but i was once told that the wall will never tell
jerry
I'm in the "price to build,build to price" camp. I am picky about the bottom of table tops having the same finish as the top, but I charge for it.
I'm pretty new here, but I think it's a good question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prashun Patel
I mostly make pieces for our house. Time is a premium for me, and I hate sanding. So, I don't go as far on the seldom seem parts.
But I do make sure all parts are covered with finish.
Prashun's post just goes around in circles when the real answer is simply if your in the hobby world, and what your making is for you, do whatever you like. Take 2 years to build a nightstand, if your happy, all is good. If you are in the hobby and making something as a favor for someone for free, and you are trying to streamline the process because you are not being compensated?... Your very smart to ask and consider how much is ridiculous (if someone is asking they question they are likely already in the ridiculous camp). If your making something for a customer, the specifications you quoted them will directly dictate what level you go to. It matters not what you "wanted" for the part, what you "think is best" for the part, nada, none, nil, matters. Unless the customer is trying to force you to make something that will be a guaranteed failure and compromise your integrity, you make to the specification (price point), document it, and walk away (hopefully with money in your pocket). If your lucky enough to be on these commissioned blank check jobs thats wonderful but I will almost guarantee you those can often times be $10/hr jobs because the maker obsesses about every little thing and the final bill, while in-sane expensive, spreadsheet's out to low wage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifford McGuire
Balanced finishes are a no brainer. Does someone hand scrape the bottom surface to match the top? Carcass interior to match exterior? Foolish.
The answer to the entire thing is pretty simple, its what are the specifications of the part being made. A honey-doo job around the house still has specifications. A set of shop cabinets has specifications. And a "commissioned" part has specifications.