Are 23" miters possible????

I'm in desperate need of some help. I'm in the very beginning stages of building a dresser(a very simple mid-century modern style,) and my wife's decided she wants the top and sides to meet with a miter joint. Is this even possible? I just can't imagine how I'd be able to cut 23" miters with hand tools. Of course, the seam would need to be absolutely perfect -- I'd want no gaps whatsoever, and will not be able to rely on filler. Does anyone have any advice? All I can think of is to create a 45 degree jig for the fence of a rabbet plane(which I'll have to buy.) Is there a better method or tool for this job?

Also, what kind of strength would this joint possess? Wouldn't I have to augment it in some way? Would I use a block on the inside of the corner? Or dowels?

I can't believe I'm even considering this kind of joint, and am kind of freaking out. Any help would be much appreciated.

Best,

David

I would not use a miter for such a major joint. Yes, it would need to be reenforced somehow.

If you did decide to do it I don't think you'd need a fenced rabbet plane for it (though it e a nice excuse to get one). Maybe you could get a jointer fence and but a 45 degree block on it. Probably work better than the rabbet plane for this and it would be cheaper. Or you could make this style of miter shooter, and just make it REALLY long.

Dare I mention full blind miter dovetails.... I certainly don't have the skill to pull them off in 23" wide jointer.

My advice, use whatever joint you would normally use cover it with moldings and convince the wife that moldings make the case look better anyway.

You might be able to pull off the look using veneer.

Another option would be to just miter the shoulder of the joint, a la the Schwarz's monticello book boxes. Here's a link to a video:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...ulder-dovetail

I assume you are thinking of a miter joint because you want a square case. Offer her a top that overhangs the sides and front a bit and see if she likes it. I find that having some overhang "terminates" the top better and is visually more pleasing than a square box. If you do put a top on that overhangs a bit, you can put two boards across the top (under the final top) and dovetail them into the sides with half blind dovetails so the end grain doesn't show. Then put your top on and use screws to attach it from underneath. Just elongate the holes at the back of the top for the screws so you allow for wood movement.

If you (or she) are dead set on a square box, I'd use half blind dovetails as a tradeoff - they're strong, easy to make and only show end grain on one surface. You can choose to show the end grain on the top or on the side. When I've done that, I show the end grain on the top.

Mike

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All I can think of is to create a 45 degree jig for the fence of a rabbet plane(which I'll have to buy.)

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Why would this require a rabbet plane?

This can be accomplished with a miter jack or an angled shooting board. It can also be done by holding a plane stationary with a feed ramp to guide the work across the sole of the plane.

Attachment 253253

There is a slight angle on the guide piece in this picture.


Attachment 253255

This one for making 22-1/2º miters has the ramp set into dados in the base. This allows for using paper shims to adjust the angle if needed. With all that wood and a little change in the weather it will likely be needed.

This one has worked out so well my plans are to build a bigger and better one in the future.

jtk

A full blind dovetail joint. Like this (not mine):

http://rabbitwoodworks.com/images/Jo...-dovetails.jpg

There's a basic problem with joining a case side with a top in this manner that has little to do with actually making it. In use, the edge will get uglied up in absolutely no time. That's one reason why the old-school method is to use half-blind dovetail joints and cover the visible part of the joint on the sides with molding. Not only does the molding hide the end-grain, it also serves to protect the joint.

Ditto with a top that overhangs the sides mounted with sliding dovetails.

I made a small piece of shop furniture with long dovetailed miters, mostly just to see if I could do it. Its pretty simple.
I documented it in this thread.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ers&highlight=

Attachment 253297

I have made modern furniture for a client who insisted on this joint. It is critical to have flat stock, I say critical, not necessarily easy!

Once you have flat stock you need only cut a square 45 degree bevel and that's simple with a good TS set up.

Now of course you have to be able to glue this joint up perfectly. For this reason you can use a single or double row row of biscuits - super fast and strong or make a spline if you prefer.

The final trick is to come up with a clamping scheme that applies the necessary pressure perdendicularly across the mitre joint. To do this I make up pine cauls that are cut at 45 degrees and I blue them to each side of the joint. Dry run, then go for it. Remove the cauls after glueing up the joint -saw and plane.

While this may sound like a bit of work it is quite simple and easy to do if you committ to the program. In the end you can have a strong solid wood mitre joint that is 23" long. Certainly there are easier and perhaps better paths to take but what you have described is by no means tricky and if the design calls for this joint then you have no excuse not to make your "client's" dreams come true.

I just added the rough drawing of what I am talking about. The guide lines show the nice clamping force across the joint. Of course you can do better and use one continuous caul and use a paper joint to ease removal etc.

If you insist on a mitered corner, consider a folded miter.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I do have a LV BU jointer with a fence that I could use. Adding a 45 degree block to this might be the best method from what I can understand. Even if I am able to get this joint put together cleanly, though, I'm afraid of what David Keller pointed out -- that the corner would get bent and dinged out of shape in no time. Do others feel like this is probable? Would that corner be likely to get smashed up?

Chris F., thanks for the photo of the cauls you recommended -- a brilliant idea. Before I saw this, I was thinking of using a few web clamps. What do you think?

You could do a secret dovetail if you wanted. I just did a tutorial on the PWM site.

But, honestly, I would probably just cut a normal miter, then attach glue blocks on the inside to help hold it together. With a little forethought, you can use them as the kickers for your top drawer.

Glue blocks are an excellent, easy way to accomplish this kind of thing, but they seem to have fallen out of favor with modern furniture makers for some reason.

Thanks, Zach. I spent a bit of time checking out your tutorial earlier, and was amazed at your skill. I'm happy to use use blocks, and will probably go this route if I end up sticking with this joint? What do you think... How will a mitered joint on a dresser top like this fare durability-wise? I wouldn't be able to round over the corner without exposing end grain. Is the sharpness and points of the bevels asking for trouble?

David, depending on the style you are planning to build the dresser in (i.e. Shaker, A and C, W and M, Chippendale), it wouldn't be out of place to have a textile covering on the top of the piece. Early pieces often had fabric covering the tops. Such a covering will protect those corners quite a bit.

If you don't want to cover the top, I think the corners will be ok. Of course, I'm all about furniture wearing in and looking old. A few dings in the corners wouldn't bother me.

The dresser will look very much like this.

Attachment 253300

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Originally Posted by David Wadstrup

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I do have a LV BU jointer with a fence that I could use. Adding a 45 degree block to this might be the best method from what I can understand. Even if I am able to get this joint put together cleanly, though, I'm afraid of what David Keller pointed out -- that the corner would get bent and dinged out of shape in no time. Do others feel like this is probable? Would that corner be likely to get smashed up?

Chris F., thanks for the photo of the cauls you recommended -- a brilliant idea. Before I saw this, I was thinking of using a few web clamps. What do you think?

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Sorry, I realise that I suggested a TS in NH. Forgot where I was. The mitre can still be cut with hand tools! I wouldn't go the web clamp route myself, I prefer the clamping pressure to be right where I want it and I think you'd do better with something else.

I am a fan of well executed mid-century modern. IMO, I would not add anything on top or around the miter to "protect it". The MCM asthetic is punctuated by it's simplicity (sometime deceptively as you are finding out with such a long miter joint). If you are concerned about durability, you can (and probably should) chamfer all the corners slightly. I would not be too concerned about the wear on the edges as I have seen a lot of modern designs that have held up well. I hope you keep us posted on the build, I'd like to see it coming along.

-Andrew

You should ignore my textile suggestion. I didn't know you were doing "mid-century modern" stuff. It doesn't suit my tastes, so I don't know anything about that style. I assume glue blocks weren't used in the factories that made the original. Let us know what you figure out!

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Originally Posted by David Wadstrup

Even if I am able to get this joint put together cleanly, though, I'm afraid of what David Keller pointed out -- that the corner would get bent and dinged out of shape in no time. Do others feel like this is probable? Would that corner be likely to get smashed up?

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David - One thought about the corner that might fit your designer's wishes and that will wear better than an exposed miter - you can add a small strip of wood at the corner that is a contrasting color. I've done quite a few boxes in this manner, and there are lots and lots of example pics on the web.

The catch is that in order for this to work, you have to veneer the case and use a stable substrate. In my case, I use baltic birch plywood. Others have used MDF, but while MDF will be OK on a small box, it's debateable in a full-size case.

Here's an example from the FWW site (the article actually mentions the that the purpose of the edge-banding is to resist wear, in addition to aesthetics) :

http://www.finewoodworking.com/woodw...r-humidor.aspx

That is a very cool design and now what you are asking about makes complete sense. Certainly the joints will need strengthening. Could a mitered spline joint work here? Of course it wouldn't be all the way thru the joint, end to end since then the spline would be visible. I'd certainly want to add the blocking inside anyway, but that would be cross-grain, wouldn't it, I mean, continuous blocking. Would the blocking be screwed inside and then glued to each other?

As has been mentioned above, you'll need to somehow reinforce the miter of this length.

It can be cut by hand, if you can crosscut a square this long (which is ambitious) and
layout your 45 degree line to be cut with a plane. Any longer handplane with a blade wider than the
exposed section of the miter will do - so long as there's minimal camber.

I think you could do it with a well tuned jack plane.
You would need to back up the exit of what amounts to a long chamfer to prevent blow out.

Mount a sacrificial upper and lower rail of wood that's harder than your stock to give the plane sole something to ride on, as a depth stop.

If the corner of your rails is not cut by the blade it would guide the plane sole along the length of your workpiece.
(I envision a lower rail tacked to your bench, the carcasse side above that with a spacer as thick as the lower rail, the upper rail applied with double sided tape and a third rail to act as a limit atop that.)

If you've ever seen a bowling alley with gutter guards, that's the idea I have for your problem.
Presuming you're right handed, the right hand side of your plane rests against your bench.

The middle of your plane is suspended over the work piece to be cut.

The left hand side of your plane would be up against the upper rail "bracket".

If that works (and I can't say I've tried it) you would still need some kind of cross grain spline for strength,
as in a picture frame.


The photo shows the rough idea, but the workpiece needs to be raised off the bench to reach the "lowest" corner.

Attachment 253334

I just watched Tommy Mac do that on his show over the weekend with some thick ambrosia maple. You might look for that episode.

An angled shooting board will be the best way to trim the miter. You will definitely need some sort of spline or other reinforcement in the joint. You don't really need to worry about damage to the corner. It may pick up some minor dings, but it won't show end grain. The bigger issue is that it is a pretty sharp corner. You probably want to blunt or round that corner slightly.

A lot of good options have been suggested, but since you find the idea of shooting a long 45 mitre scary, it seems that elegant joints like blind mitre dovetails are not realistic now.

First off, it isn't that hard to cut a long 45 mitre. The boards must be very flat. Layout very carefully. Cut back from the line a few 1/16's, then shave to the line with a very sharp plane, a block or other low angle plane will work. An accurate jig will help a lot. Pay close attention, take very fine shavings as you approach the lines, and make certain you don't cut past the lines.

Will She Who Must Be Obeyed permit splines? If so, they are easy and foolproof. Just glue up the corners (let the glue soak into the endgrain without drying, then apply some more just before closing the joint) and hold the carcass together with packing tape on the mitres. Practice this with dry joints first. The tape will suck the joints tightly together. Makes sure the carcass is square and the joints are tight. Then use some more tape on the diagonals (X's) at front and back openings to maintain a rigid frame temporarily. When the glue has reached strength (min 24 hrs), layout the spline kerfs and cut them by hand. Glue in the splines. When they are dry, trim and shave as necessary.

If splines are too much, and the design permits, full-width glue blocks with screws will work too. Not elegant, and you might need to design the doors and drawers to accommodate them, but they will provide good strength.

Send me your email address and I'll send you a PDF of Rolf Shutze's "Making Modern Danish Furniture." You also might consider buying Charles Hayward's "Modern Furniture Construction."

It's a great style and great fun and very popular again! Go ahead and burn some electrons. If you can pull off THE definition of brutal woodworking: 23" times four sides in secret mitered dovetailing then feel free to put me on ignore.

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by Charlie Stanford

If you can pull off THE definition of brutal woodworking: 23" times four sides in secret mitered dovetailing then feel free to put me on ignore.

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Yeah, that is definitely a worthy definition of brutal woodworking - ha!! Maybe that's why I've convinced myself I love endgrain ...

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3095/2...ac2_z.jpg?zz=1

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Originally Posted by Sean Hughto

Yeah, that is definitely a worthy definition of brutal woodworking - ha!! Maybe that's why I've convinced myself I love endgrain ...

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3095/2...ac2_z.jpg?zz=1

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Hear 'ya loud and clear! Cool clamp set up too.

Hi Sean,

Do you remember what slope you made these dovetails?

Thanks for this picture. Really, really nice work!

Serves you right for teaching her what a miter joint is!!:)

1:8 Woodjoy

Here's a video of full blind dovetails. But a leg vise won't do. You'll need a foot vise.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug_1KJDsPwk

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Originally Posted by Sean Hughto

1:8 Woodjoy

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Very very nice Sean. Excellent craftsmanship. Still I think for the piece being discussed the full miter will be the most elegant. Stanley C's suggestion of splines will make for a rugged cabinet too. Look forward to seeing the completed work in any case.


:( and now I see that this thread got started in February. Was this cabinet built? Problem solved and joinery used = please?

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Originally Posted by Sam Murdoch

:( and now I see that this thread got started in February. Was this cabinet built? Problem solved and joinery used = please?

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Here is the recent continuation as far as I know....

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...-panel-glue-up

I was hoping no one would notice, but yes, this is the same project/same problem I was writing about in February. I told you I was really nervous about these joints! ;)

Somehow, the year has gotten away from me, and still no dresser. On the upside, I'm happy to be able to report that I've put a fair amount of effort into improving my dovetails(for the drawers.) I've also experimented quite a bit with homemade paste waxes and the type and application of the finish I'll use on this piece. A polymerized tung oil that I'll sand while wet to fill the pores of the walnut. The sanding results in a duller surface than a plane would leave behind, but in this case, I think the feel of the finish and the softness of the look is actually more desirable considering this is a bedroom piece. Also, because I couldn't find ones for sale that I liked, I've built a couple of pairs of winding sticks. I think they came out really nice -- quarter sawn teak with inlayed ebony and holly and mother of pearl. I discovered that while I'm not a big fan of the look of inlay, I do find it really fun and satisfying to make. I also found that an obsession with purchasing and rehabbing saws was another good way of putting this project off without feeling too guilty. So I dived right in. At this point, I think I've become pretty good at sharpening them. It's a really nice feeling being able to do this myself.

I'm actually starting to maybe, just possibly, consider using dovetails on this case. I really do tend towards the clean looks of mid century modern furniture, but am afraid that miters like this in solid wood, which I know aren't practical, might in the end look a bit less clean than veneer(what is typically used in pieces like this in this style) thereby ruining the whole effect --miniscule gaps, rounded over edges, etc. I'm not really interested in working with sheet goods(for no other reason than I'm a hand tool person and like to work with real wood,) and so might have to resign myself to combining traditional solid wood joinery with the kind of mid century look that modern materials and production methods made possible. I don't know. I'm gluing up these panels now, so have a little longer to think it through.

Thanks, everyone, for your help and advice, and for your interest in this project/saga.

FWIW, I believe it's possible to cut a locking miter by hand.

Also, modern furniture does not necessarily eliminate hand joinery or even exposed joinery, for instance the Mogens Koch bookcases use mitered corner dovetails.

Crazy way to do it.
new wife:confused: