"Absolute wealth of techniques in this video for any project."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frederick Skelly

Thanks Edwin. I didn't know of this technique, but it sure looks safer to me. It reminds me of the "10 million dollar Stick" I bought recently and find useful.

I'd add a 4th option to making the cut your pictures show: use a hand saw, like a Dozuki or a Backsaw. For me, that works very well. For others, YMMV.

Fred

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Fred, that's a nice safety accessory. I hadn't seen it before, but yes, it's an improved variation on the same principle I was showing in the one photo. I can see it was primarily designed for use at a miter saw, which is good because miter saw blades with negative hook designs have a tendency to grab. This work holder keeps your hand safely away from the blade and takes no additional time to use. Might be a little long for use on a table saw sled.

Not related to your post, but I was taught it's good practice to let the miter saw blade come to a stop in the down position so the spinning blade cannot catch the workpiece or the offcut on the way up.

Another thing I do often is hold small or odd parts for cutting on a table saw sled with a temporary fence hot glued in the field of the sled. You can screw on a toggle clamp for a hold down, or just use the holding stick.
Edwin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury

https://youtu.be/l272IFKogHU


No tablesaw guard, and dangerous unsupported work on the bandsaw. I dont have a problem with the way Sam worked, but you should.
Sam never seemed to suffer any abuse, is it because he was famous. Sam wasn't doing home made youtube videos, he was doing TV professionally produced video, so chances are at some point someone told him to put the "don't do this at home"
Everything that was said about the guy in the video could just as easy been said of Sam Maloof if he wasn't famous. Everything that has been said to me could apply to Sam Maloof.


People work differently, and have different skill levels and different ideas of what is safe for them.
I am sorry but you won’t change my mind,
I care about my safety as much as you care about yours,
I take precautions to protect my safety just as you do yours,
I work differently than you do and I employ different safety measures than you do. My methods are different but just as effective for me.

I do not trust statistics, too many variables, too many ways to interpret or misinterpret results.

It doesn't matter if I work safely for a year or a 1000 years you will always say that I am delusional and it doesn't prove that my way is safe.
But it’s good enough for me.
What you assume is universally accepted safety methods is not actually universally accepted.
Techniques that you state are proven good safety measures are not acceptable to me.
I am fine making my own decisions on what ways are safe for me, and I am fine with you following whatever safety measures you feel work for you.

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Mark I think you have erroneously concluded people here are trying to "change" YOU. You keep talking about you and your techniques, but really the conversation quickly morphed (though not entirely) into a discussion about the responsibility of YouTube personalities (and other "teachers") to at best demonstrate good techniques or at worst mention when the ones employed are inferior from a safety perspective....much like Sam Maloof did. It is only logical that excellent training and a lot of experience can lead to a safer worker. Forgetting for a minute that excellent training would include all the best guarding and techniques, it's also only pure logic that adding additional safety elements (whatever they may be) on top of this training and experience will make that individual even safer again. That's just plain logic. Yes, I agree with you that lots of experience and training can put you in one part of the bell curve such that (all things equal) you have fewer accidents per unit operation, but it will never make you inhuman and it will never mean the unpredictable will never happen to you. Guarding and superior techniques just add another safety layer. If a guard gets in the way, choose a different technique. I respect someone's right to decide that some techniques and no guarding are safe enough for them...that's just fine. But I do think that there's a social responsibility, if you're a teacher or a leader in your field making a demonstration, to tell people if what you're doing is not current state of the art with respect to safety. It takes no effort, costs nothing and causes no pain....so why not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brent stanley

Mark I think you have erroneously concluded people here are trying to "change" YOU. You keep talking about you and your techniques, but really the conversation quickly morphed (though not entirely) into a discussion about the responsibility of YouTube personalities (and other "teachers") to at best demonstrate good techniques or at worst mention when the ones employed are inferior from a safety perspective....much like Sam Maloof did. It is only logical that excellent training and a lot of experience can lead to a safer worker. Forgetting for a minute that excellent training would include all the best guarding and techniques, it's also only pure logic that adding additional safety elements (whatever they may be) on top of this training and experience will make that individual even safer again. That's just plain logic. Yes, I agree with you that lots of experience and training can put you in one part of the bell curve such that (all things equal) you have fewer accidents per unit operation, but it will never make you inhuman and it will never mean the unpredictable will never happen to you. Guarding and superior techniques just add another safety layer. If a guard gets in the way, choose a different technique. I respect someone's right to decide that some techniques and no guarding are safe enough for them...that's just fine. But I do think that there's a social responsibility, if you're a teacher or a leader in your field making a demonstration, to tell people if what you're doing is not current state of the art with respect to safety. It takes no effort, costs nothing and causes no pain....so why not?

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I do not think that people are trying to change me at all.

I have defended myself because i work in similar ways to the guy in the video and Sam Maloof, and so do many others, and that way of working was attacked, and the man was belittled, by what i see as ignorance and arrogance.

I have tried to shed some light on how and why people choose to work that way.
I have tried to show that we are not all idiots, that actually care about our safety and work with skill and knowledge. With the hopes that people will not jump in with a mob mentality in the future, but will maybe have a little more respect and more open mind.
We on occasion work in high risk situations that we feel we understand and are capable of handling. Not 100% safe, not as safe as can be, not with all the available safety devises know to man, but to a degree of risk that we feel confident that it is within our abilities.

Maybe you should contact youtube to put a disclaimer for thier channel, might be easier.


The total number of people who use YouTube – 1,300,000,000. 300 hours of video are uploaded to YouTube every minute! Almost 5 billion videos are watched on Youtube every single day.


Many people choose to do things in their lives that can not be considered 100% safe for their own reasons, no reason to single out woodworkers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury

I think people should forget about statistics and probability and think about safety operations in terms of an acceptable level of risk matched to their own level of knowledge, skill and comfort. Because after all its your fingers.

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Mark,

Two things here that I would disagree with in the context of this thread:

1. "an acceptable level of risk" is a statement about probability and statistics, so saying we should move away from that is an oxymoron. Risk is always a probability of undesirable outcome, not an absolute certainty of undesirable outcome. So, no, repeating an operation 10 times without incident and concluding that it will never bite you isn't a valid conclusion. It should increase your confidence that your original analysis of the operation as safe was valid, but it does not provide certainty. Using "safe" techniques lowers the probability of an undesirable outcome, using "unsafe" techniques raises it. But it's always about probability.

I work in a hospital that is absolutely dedicated to patient safety. We are by any reckoning among the best in the world. Yet even entirely preventable "accidents" - things that are never intended and which in theory can only happen due to a mistake by a highly focused professional team - occur in roughly 1 of 100,000 surgeries. All of our training and practice hasn't made the probability zero, but a strict attention to following every safety practice does make it very small. (It's worth noting, that a large fraction of surgeons initially rejected the safety protocols we used to achieve those results, because they "didn't need them" and "understood their own skills and limitations well enough to know they didn't.")

2. "Because after all it's your fingers" is true only if you DON"T post it on Youtube. Once you make a "how to" video and share it with every woodworker looking for answers via a Youtube video, it's no longer just your fingers. This is the real crux of this whole thread. Taking personal responsibility for what you do means, to me at least, being aware of how it will be used by others. Youtube videos are used by people who are not expert to learn. We should all take responsibility for what we're teaching them, understanding they may not have the skills and background we do. Would you take a 15 year old aspiring woodworker into your shop and teach them that ripping a severely cupped board on a table saw resulting in binding the saw to the point of jamming, and severe burning of the cut is a good use of tools? I doubt it. I think you're much more of a pro than that. But that's what that Youtube video that started this thread is doing (among other, to me even more hair-raising, things).

Photo 2 is what I do most of the time which is a stick holder shaped at the end with some sandpaper glued on for grip.

Good share.

This fellow also demos the use of a stick holder/sandpaper:

https://youtu.be/knotpj60bsk?t=23m52s

A jig may help, too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djU29zn-kDU

Simon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury

I do not think that people are trying to change me at all.

I have defended myself because i work in similar ways to the guy in the video and Sam Maloof, and so do many others, and that way of working was attacked, and the man was belittled, by what i see as ignorance and arrogance.

I have tried to shed some light on how and why people choose to work that way.
I have tried to show that we are not all idiots, that actually care about our safety and work with skill and knowledge. With the hopes that people will not jump in with a mob mentality in the future, but will maybe have a little more respect and more open mind.
We on occasion work in high risk situations that we feel we understand and are capable of handling. Not 100% safe, not as safe as can be, not with all the available safety devises know to man, but to a degree of risk that we feel confident that it is within our abilities.

Maybe you should contact youtube to put a disclaimer for thier channel, might be easier.


The total number of people who use YouTube – 1,300,000,000. 300 hours of video are uploaded to YouTube every minute! Almost 5 billion videos are watched on Youtube every single day.


Many people choose to do things in their lives that can not be considered 100% safe for their own reasons, no reason to single out woodworkers.

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Well for the record Mark (and you can verify by reviewing this thread) I didn't attack the guy. What I did say is that I don't care what decisions people make as long as they're informed decisions and they don't hurt anyone else. Why would you not want to help people make informed decisions about their safety?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury

Not 100% safe, not as safe as can be, not with all the available safety devises know to man,

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You've essentially agreed with me that some seasoned veterans do things in ways that aren't as safe as they could be. That's fine....I don't actually care.....as long as they're not inadvertently influencing others to do the the same thing by demonstrating unsafe techniques and giving the appearance they are endorsing it.

I agree that people who choose not to employ all safety techniques should not be called idiots or vilified....it's not productive or helpful. It might be best if people assumed they knew what they were doing and knowingly accepted the risks. However it's equally as unhelpful to throw out the baby with the bathwater and dismiss the entire substance of what people say simply because you don't like their approach to saying it.

I did offer up for discussion that there may be a social responsibility to help ensure people aren't misguided by what we show them. To help them make informed decisions about safety according to THEIR standards which may be different from the person doing a video. It takes no effort and costs nothing so why not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve Demuth

Mark,

Two things here that I would disagree with in the context of this thread:

1. "an acceptable level of risk" is a statement about probability and statistics, so saying we should move away from that is an oxymoron. Risk is always a probability of undesirable outcome, not an absolute certainty of undesirable outcome. So, no, repeating an operation 10 times without incident and concluding that it will never bite you isn't a valid conclusion. It should increase your confidence that your original analysis of the operation as safe was valid, but it does not provide certainty. Using "safe" techniques lowers the probability of an undesirable outcome, using "unsafe" techniques raises it. But it's always about probability.

I work in a hospital that is absolutely dedicated to patient safety. We are by any reckoning among the best in the world. Yet even entirely preventable "accidents" - things that are never intended and which in theory can only happen due to a mistake by a highly focused professional team - occur in roughly 1 of 100,000 surgeries. All of our training and practice hasn't made the probability zero, but a strict attention to following every safety practice does make it very small. (It's worth noting, that a large fraction of surgeons initially rejected the safety protocols we used to achieve those results, because they "didn't need them" and "understood their own skills and limitations well enough to know they didn't.")

2. "Because after all it's your fingers" is true only if you DON"T post it on Youtube. Once you make a "how to" video and share it with every woodworker looking for answers via a Youtube video, it's no longer just your fingers. This is the real crux of this whole thread. Taking personal responsibility for what you do means, to me at least, being aware of how it will be used by others. Youtube videos are used by people who are not expert to learn. We should all take responsibility for what we're teaching them, understanding they may not have the skills and background we do. Would you take a 15 year old aspiring woodworker into your shop and teach them that ripping a severely cupped board on a table saw resulting in binding the saw to the point of jamming, and severe burning of the cut is a good use of tools? I doubt it. I think you're much more of a pro than that. But that's what that Youtube video that started this thread is doing (among other, to me even more hair-raising, things).

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Steve,

I do understand that my work carries a chance of getting injured. I don't believe that i am invincible or doing an operation 10 times means i won't ever have an accident. Just like i believe that if your hospital had never had an accident in 50 years of operation you would not feel the need to "upgrade" your safety protocol. Even though your current one had worked for 50 years would not mean it would continue. But i would suggest if you had suffered several serious mishaps you might feel the need to change your methods.

No i would no let a 15 year old as you suggest, anymore than you would let a 15 year old do open heart surgery.

There are plenty of surgery videos, do they all give safety warnings to 15 years old not to try this at home.

The fact is there are billions of videos on the internet. Adults wanting to learn have a responsibility to seek out beginner training videos, children need be supervised by their parents not me.
I would never recommend an advanced practice to a beginner myself. But that does not make me responsible for adults making bad choices.
No different than an adult trying home surgery, is that your fault.

???

I always refer to the shop behavior of a person. Safety is about a person's behavior.

I like what I hear on the video: Sam Maloof did not say “I recommend that you do not use the bandsaw the way I’m using it. It is very dangerous. You shouldn’t do it. Ah I do it because I AM AN ELITE WOODWORKER.”

Instead, he said: "“I recommend that you do not use the bandsaw the way I’m using it. It is very dangerous. You shouldn’t do it. Ah I do it because I didn’t know it better when I started and no one had told me I shouldn’t do it.”

Simon

In all my years woodworking and meeting tons and tons of other woodworkers, the only people with missing fingers I've ever met were experienced, high end, middle aged woodworkers and one carpenter. Probably half a dozen all together. They all said the guards were removed, they all said they were too confident, and they all said it was while they were doing something they'd done a million times before. They all said they wished they'd never taken the guards off, and hadn't gotten a false sense of confidence. Anyway, I've said my bit, I'm out. I'm going to run away now, but not with scissors in my hand. :)

B

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark Hennebury

The fact is there are billions of videos on the internet. Adults wanting to learn have a responsibility to seek out beginner training videos, children need be supervised by their parents not me.
I would never recommend an advanced practice to a beginner myself. But that does not make me responsible for adults making bad choices.
No different than an adult trying home surgery, is that your fault.

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You still don't get our point.

So how do "Adults wanting to learn" seek out competent beginner videos? if you don't know something and you are looking for how to do it then how do you determine if the woodworker in the video you are watching is doing something that is dangerous.

I fully support your right to do your woodworking the way you want to and commend you for your safety record. But how do we keep someone from getting hurt from copying practices that are hazardous with years of experience? That all I want to know.

My last input on this subject.

I watched a couple of videos on how to fly a A320 today, I think I'm going to take one for a spin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshall K Harrison

You still don't get our point.

So how do "Adults wanting to learn" seek out competent beginner videos? if you don't know something and you are looking for how to do it then how do you determine if the woodworker in the video you are watching is doing something that is dangerous.

I fully support your right to do your woodworking the way you want to and commend you for your safety record. But how do we keep someone from getting hurt from copying practices that are hazardous with years of experience? That all I want to know.

My last input on this subject.

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You cant.

I get your point exactly, i just don't agree with it.
You want me to be responsible for the youth of the world, to protect them from doing dangerous things that they see on the internet. A job i believe belongs to their parents.
You want me to be responsible for the adults of the world to protect them from harming themselves after copying things they see on the internet. A job i believe belongs to them.

I copy no one
I trust no one
I do not trust my self, i know only to well that your mind, does not care about the welfare of its owner, i check, i verify to the best of my ability.
I make my decisions based on my assessment.
I may do myself and injury from something i do.
it will be my fault.
I am an adult and i take full responsibility for my actions.

Decided to stay out of this, busy with old people care and lost the old guy that taught me the most last week. He was very well respected in the cabinetmaking world. On the safety thing here you go I clicked a few you tubes after the Sam Malof post not ideal but not big deal what he is doing he has the feel for what he is doing. You tubes down the side I had to check that it truly was a jointer and not a sanding head and it is a jointer. I really cant believe im seeing this. No matter what any of us have done over the years old school guys it wont come close to this.


Attachment 381229

Warren, that's hard to watch. The poor guy doesn't know any better. And that includes not knowing how to use tools properly...

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Originally Posted by Warren Lake

Attachment 381229

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S-P-E-E-C-H-L-E-S-S.

Simon