Taper in hand saws and panel saw plates - how much difference does it make?

I've been thinking of posting this question for awhile, and the other saw thread this morning reminded me.

Most vintage, and high-end contemporary saws have tapered plates (LN, Bad Axe), while mid-range and low-end contemporary saws have flat plates (Pax, etc.). How much of a performance difference will you actually notice while sawing that is attributable to the tapered plate?

I assume the tapered plate would allow you to use a bit less set, and that would really be the main advantage. However, when people talk about tapered plates usually a reduced tendency to bind is cited as the advantage, but reduced set would probably tend to offset that (no pun intended!).

When it comes to flat plates, it seems like there are folks out there that prefer the added stiffness of a flat plate, where I'd assume you'd need more set, resulting in a wider kerf and maybe a bit slower of a saw.

So what are your opinions about flat vs. tapered saw plates?

Why don't you buy one and test it? I have many hand saws.

I have saws that have a tapered plate and saws that have no taper in the plate . . . I can't say there's much of a difference in the actual performance of the saw, but then again I haven't felt the need to test anything scientifically - nor do I have them set up (or use them) in a high-performance setting. Both work well for me, and perhaps those that say one over the other have other criteria to base their opinions on.

Might want to look up "Disston Taper"? Atkins also had a ad about their taper grind saws.

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Originally Posted by Laurent Marshall

I've been thinking of posting this question for awhile, and the other saw thread this morning reminded me.

Most vintage, and high-end contemporary saws have tapered plates (LN, Bad Axe), while mid-range and low-end contemporary saws have flat plates (Pax, etc.). How much of a performance difference will you actually notice while sawing that is attributable to the tapered plate?

I assume the tapered plate would allow you to use a bit less set, and that would really be the main advantage. However, when people talk about tapered plates usually a reduced tendency to bind is cited as the advantage, but reduced set would probably tend to offset that (no pun intended!).

When it comes to flat plates, it seems like there are folks out there that prefer the added stiffness of a flat plate, where I'd assume you'd need more set, resulting in a wider kerf and maybe a bit slower of a saw.

So what are your opinions about flat vs. tapered saw plates?

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It's one of those things that sounds great in theory, isn't it? I've found the difference is hardly noticeable.

You have to be able to steer the saw in the cut. Back when almost all carpentry was done with handsaws, and they were sold by the dozen, tapering must have mattered, for all the effort put into it. If you're not going to use one to amount to anything, I doubt it will matter to you.

When I first started building houses, in 1974, I hired the best carpenters I could find, which turned out to be the oldest ones. All these guys still used handsaws for finish cuts that mattered. To a one, they all used, and sang the praises of the Disston D23. This was before there was such a thing as a sliding miter saw, or at least, that anyone around here had ever seen.

The new D23's then, were not the same saws that all the old guys (all younger than I am now) used. I mail ordered some Sandvik handsaws to try, and everyone liked them, in spite of the plywood handles. I have stuck with them. They are not tapered quite as much as the really old Disstons, but do have enough taper to matter, with a standard set.

I still do cuts that matter with handsaws. This siding was cut with a 10 pt. Sandvik. It might look tight, but you can move each piece, in and out with a finger tip. If you put one in too tight, it opens up the one below. it's just hanging on the nails. It's off the saw, marked with a preacher, and sharp no.4 pencil. I don't like to use caulking on the exterior of houses. I think that house was about 25 years old when I took that picture, a few years ago.

I wouldn't even pick up a handsaw that didn't have a tapered plate.

edited to add: I'm not sure when they stopped making those Sandvik saws, but it's been several decades. I've bought up 12 or 15, NOS, still in the cardboard sleeves. I have more than I will ever need. I never worry about how a tool looks, or even feels in my hands, unless it becomes irritating after using all day. The Sandvik saws are very comfortable to me.

Laurent,

You have pretty much summed up the pros and cons of handsaw tapering, save one.

In many areas of woodworking people often use wood that isn't fully dry. Some species of fir tend to expand when cutting. Some have areas with high amounts of resin. A tapered spine on a saw tends to help in this area. Wood movement may also be a factor when ripping planks during a humid spell of weather.

jtk

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Originally Posted by Jim Koepke

Laurent,

You have pretty much summed up the pros and cons of handsaw tapering, save one.

In many areas of woodworking people often use wood that isn't fully dry. Some species of fir tend to expand when cutting. Some have areas with high amounts of resin. A tapered spine on a saw tends to help in this area. Wood movement may also be a factor when ripping planks during a humid spell of weather.

jtk

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That makes sense. Since most of these old 26in handsaws were used in the balloon-frame construction booms of the mid-late 1900s probably with very un-seasoned stuff, heating and sticky resin would be a factor.

Those who think that taper doesn't matter likely never have wielded a properly filed Disston #12 which had a thinner plate and more pronounced taper than most of their saws. The difference is striking. A tapered blade requires less set so is easier to push.

What may not be obvious is that Disston didn't taper grind their saws. They actually rolled the hot steel with this taper and then polished the result, at least after 1876:

https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNu...&docid=0181650

Just another one of the many reasons that Disston was the King of Saw Making.

Happy Sawing.

Any notion how Sears achieved their distinctive "Chromedge" pattern? Always thought they were pretty.

Like this?
Attachment 422002

Yup.

Always thought this an appealing finish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom M King

You have to be able to steer the saw in the cut. Back when almost all carpentry was done with handsaws, and they were sold by the dozen, tapering must have mattered, for all the effort put into it. If you're not going to use one to amount to anything, I doubt it will matter to you.

When I first started building houses, in 1974, I hired the best carpenters I could find, which turned out to be the oldest ones. All these guys still used handsaws for finish cuts that mattered. To a one, they all used, and sang the praises of the Disston D23. This was before there was such a thing as a sliding miter saw, or at least, that anyone around here had ever seen.

The new D23's then, were not the same saws that all the old guys (all younger than I am now) used. I mail ordered some Sandvik handsaws to try, and everyone liked them, in spite of the plywood handles. I have stuck with them. They are not tapered quite as much as the really old Disstons, but do have enough taper to matter, with a standard set.

I still do cuts that matter with handsaws. This siding was cut with a 10 pt. Sandvik. It might look tight, but you can move each piece, in and out with a finger tip. If you put one in too tight, it opens up the one below. it's just hanging on the nails. It's off the saw, marked with a preacher, and sharp no.4 pencil. I don't like to use caulking on the exterior of houses. I think that house was about 25 years old when I took that picture, a few years ago.

I wouldn't even pick up a handsaw that didn't have a tapered plate.

edited to add: I'm not sure when they stopped making those Sandvik saws, but it's been several decades. I've bought up 12 or 15, NOS, still in the cardboard sleeves. I have more than I will ever need. I never worry about how a tool looks, or even feels in my hands, unless it becomes irritating after using all day. The Sandvik saws are very comfortable to me.

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Thanks for your post and insight on preferences those old carpenters had! I have my doubts anyone uses handsaws in construction or finish carpentry anymore these days, definitely a lot of skills lost...

I may very well be the last. But not just for the sake of using a handsaw. Often, it's the best tool for the job.

Picture of Cypress Shingle roof being trimmed with one of my beater handsaws.
https://www.woodtalkonline.com/uploa...ac88270ac8.jpgAnd every piece of this handrail was cut with either a handsaw, or a backsaw, with the small pieces cut while sitting on the steps to save so much up and down.
http://historic-house-restoration.co...s/CIMG2129.JPG

A saw like a Disston #12 is much easier to saw compared to others. That said, it does require a higher level of skill when applying and truing the set to take advantage of the extra taper. If you are off the slightest there is little room left in the kerf to steer the saw. Probably nothing for an experienced saw sharpener, but it was challenging for me to figure it out.