Insert Tooling, What do you think?

I'm starting to tool up in anticipation of new machine coming on line once I get umbilicals hooked up. Shop Sabre Pro 480, ATC, 8 KW spindle, F4 vacuum.

I like the idea of insert tooling and have ordered an Amana flycutter for spoilboard. I paused before ordering other bits, specifically V cutters, wondering if the single cutter will give quality of cut I'm looking for. Traditional wisdom suggests more cutting edges = better finish, but does that hold true for CNC? Does the greater precision and positioning/holding capability mitigate the need?

I'd love to hear people's experience along these lines. Specifically as it pertains to Amana insert V cutters, but all info is welcome given my inexperience with CNC routers.

Thanks, Peter

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Originally Posted by Peter Rawlings

I'm starting to tool up in anticipation of new machine coming on line once I get umbilicals hooked up. Shop Sabre Pro 480, ATC, 8 KW spindle, F4 vacuum.

I like the idea of insert tooling and have ordered an Amana flycutter for spoilboard. I paused before ordering other bits, specifically V cutters, wondering if the single cutter will give quality of cut I'm looking for. Traditional wisdom suggests more cutting edges = better finish, but does that hold true for CNC? Does the greater precision and positioning/holding capability mitigate the need?

I'd love to hear people's experience along these lines. Specifically as it pertains to Amana insert V cutters, but all info is welcome given my inexperience with CNC routers.

Thanks, Peter

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For us:

Insert tooling = Good... quick to get sharp edge, profiles will nearly always be very close to identical, expensive on the entry side.

We have several Amana insert tools. large 3.5" 5Z fly cutter, small 2Z, several of their V and engraving insert tools. The insert engravers are fragile but not super fragile.

The issue with regards to the number of cutters resulting in a better cut by default is NOT true for CNC. You will find one thing with CNC, there is no real "default" with regards to the mindset of coming from the woodworking world into the CNC world. For instance using an 80 tooth blade to cut plywood is better than a 24 tooth, that doesnt really cross over to the CNC world. You just have to do the math when you calculate your feeds and speeds. You will very quickly find that the power of your spindle will simply not drive a larger multi flute cutter so there is no need to spend the money on one. With smaller V bits the operations they are running never let the machine accelerate to the feed speeds that will tax a single or two flute tools typically. So there is really no point.

We run a similar machine, 408Pro, 10HP HSD, 10 pos ATC, vac,

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Originally Posted by Mark Bolton

For us:

Insert tooling = Good... quick to get sharp edge, profiles will nearly always be very close to identical, expensive on the entry side.

We have several Amana insert tools. large 3.5" 5Z fly cutter, small 2Z, several of their V and engraving insert tools. The insert engravers are fragile but not super fragile.

The issue with regards to the number of cutters resulting in a better cut by default is NOT true for CNC. You will find one thing with CNC, there is no real "default" with regards to the mindset of coming from the woodworking world into the CNC world. For instance using an 80 tooth blade to cut plywood is better than a 24 tooth, that doesnt really cross over to the CNC world. You just have to do the math when you calculate your feeds and speeds. You will very quickly find that the power of your spindle will simply not drive a larger multi flute cutter so there is no need to spend the money on one. With smaller V bits the operations they are running never let the machine accelerate to the feed speeds that will tax a single or two flute tools typically. So there is really no point.

We run a similar machine, 408Pro, 10HP HSD, 10 pos ATC, vac,

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Thanks Mark, that's the kind of info I was looking for. Seems our machines are nearly identical. Never mind that I called it something else, it is indeed a 408 and not a 480. Also the 8 KW spindle does equate to 10HP, although HP seems to be mostly an American measure. I'm not even sure HSD rates in anything but KW.

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Originally Posted by Peter Rawlings

Thanks Mark, that's the kind of info I was looking for. Seems our machines are nearly identical. Never mind that I called it something else, it is indeed a 408 and not a 480. Also the 8 KW spindle does equate to 10HP, although HP seems to be mostly an American measure. I'm not even sure HSD rates in anything but KW.

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I think its actually the US consumer that gets accommodated with the HP vs KW rating. We are stuck avoiding kilo-anything so they have to do the conversion for us. My point about your spindle not being able to achieve the feeds pertains to the 10HP/8KW. Other than anything small diameter (sub 3/8") your nearly never going to be able to overcome the capacity of the tool with your machine and spindle. So your best bet is to keep your tooling package small in diameter so you can run your machine wide open (feeds). When you get into the Vcarving thing, your toolpaths are usually so short and interupted that you never have a chance to get up to speed, so your V bits, regardless of the number of flutes, are going to be grinding themselves to death waiting for your machine.

I wouldnt buy a single cutter above 3/8" diameter unless you plan on doing a lot of solid hardwood. We run quite a bit of hardwood so we run 1/2" tooling a bit. Signs, carving, sheet metal, ply, melamine, MDF, all will be sub 3/8". The only monster you should have is the biggest fly cutter you can afford for surfacing your spoilboard and flattening solid wood slabs and glue ups (preferably 3" or bigger). And order a spacer or two for your dust shoe.

I have an opinion. A really positive one so far. I recently bought the Amana insert v-bits and wow, they are the bee's knees for crispy cutting. They are remarkably balanced, too. My Amana spoilboard cutter is also the insert version. I'd consider insert type for other needs in the future if it made sense for the profile, etc.

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Originally Posted by Jim Becker

I have an opinion. A really positive one so far. I recently bought the Amana insert v-bits and wow, they are the bee's knees for crispy cutting. They are remarkably balanced, too. My Amana spoilboard cutter is also the insert version. I'd consider insert type for other needs in the future if it made sense for the profile, etc.

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We love our insert stuff as well. The ability to refresh an edge on the fly or even mid-job is great and the fact that the profile stays consistent is a real bonus as opposed to sending tools out for sharpening and having to worry that a tool replaced mid-job is not going to be an exact match in the geometry.

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Originally Posted by Mark Bolton

I think its actually the US consumer that gets accommodated with the HP vs KW rating. We are stuck avoiding kilo-anything so they have to do the conversion for us. My point about your spindle not being able to achieve the feeds pertains to the 10HP/8KW. Other than anything small diameter (sub 3/8") your nearly never going to be able to overcome the capacity of the tool with your machine and spindle. So your best bet is to keep your tooling package small in diameter so you can run your machine wide open (feeds). When you get into the Vcarving thing, your toolpaths are usually so short and interupted that you never have a chance to get up to speed, so your V bits, regardless of the number of flutes, are going to be grinding themselves to death waiting for your machine.

I wouldnt buy a single cutter above 3/8" diameter unless you plan on doing a lot of solid hardwood. We run quite a bit of hardwood so we run 1/2" tooling a bit. Signs, carving, sheet metal, ply, melamine, MDF, all will be sub 3/8". The only monster you should have is the biggest fly cutter you can afford for surfacing your spoilboard and flattening solid wood slabs and glue ups (preferably 3" or bigger). And order a spacer or two for your dust shoe.

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Roger that, and thanks.
If you're willing, do tell more about dust shoe spacer. Do they have embedded magnets like one on machine and just stack up with longer bits? In my many conversations with Shopsabre prior to purchase it's something that didn't come up.

I'm quite sure there's lots for me to learn from those with experience I lack. I've been haunting the forums lately to gain what I can while I stare at the silent hulk sitting in shop.

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Originally Posted by Peter Rawlings

If you're willing, do tell more about dust shoe spacer. Do they have embedded magnets like one on machine and just stack up with longer bits? In my many conversations with Shopsabre prior to purchase it's something that didn't come up.

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I'm seriously considering getting a shoe spacer because I have a few cutters I use regularly that end up "longer" and that results in a gap and less effective collection. I have no interest in continually adjusting the shoe on the spindle.

Yes, spacers have magnets and just stack between the clamping plate on the spindle and the bristle plate. The max you can stack is 2 before the magnets start to reach their limit. Drawback on our atc is factory, you can't run any extensions with the atc because the hex bolts holding the forks will hit the bristle plate on a tool change. We did away with the hex bolts and counter bored for flat head cap screws so we can run one extension all the time. With the iso 30 holders anything but the shortest bits (1.5" cutting depth) will leave the bristles off the work leaving a lot of missed pickup. With a large fly cutter surfacing slabs or working up off the spoil board the pickup will be awful for any shoe. Running the two spacers in those situations will get 90% of the chips. The single is fine everywhere else. We run none when running short bits. Kind of a pain but without the expense of an articulated shoe or enclosed spindle you do what you have to do.

Huh, I never knew SS had spacers available for the shoe. I did have one for my Kent shoe on my Camaster and it worked pretty well. Are you changing the spacers after tool changes or just picking the best combo for a job and leaving it that way for all the bits? I have a phone call to make today. Thanks.

Mark, I wonder if the bolt head interference isn't something they've modified in production. On the machine I just got, the tool forks are stepped down where they attach to crossbar, which leaves the heads in plane with the top surface of fork. Looks like I may have a phone call to make also.

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Originally Posted by James Biddle

Huh, I never knew SS had spacers available for the shoe. I did have one for my Kent shoe on my Camaster and it worked pretty well. Are you changing the spacers after tool changes or just picking the best combo for a job and leaving it that way for all the bits? I have a phone call to make today. Thanks.

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I ordered the spacers direct from Kent. It seems they made a special shoe for SS. They asked me to take a photo of the label inside the shoe. There is a little paper label stuck to the inside of the plastic adapter that your DC hose connects to. They made me two spacers from that number.

And yes, we typically leave one spacer on all the time now other than for very short bits but depending on your setup like I say you have to be carefull because our forks on the ATC were attached with hex head bolts where the hex is above the fork. There is very little clearance between the under side of the bristle shoe and those bolt heads so you cant run ANY extension period with those bolts in place if your doing ATC tool changes. Like I say, we removed the hex bolts and countersunk the forks and replaced the bolts with flat head caps screws which allows us to run one extension all the time.

I have yet to make a part but I cant run the spacer with short bits because I have some thin PVC screwed to the inside of the bristles at the DC port because we have a 3HP cyclone picking up the CNC that is right next to it and I ran 5" hose and reduced it right at the spindle to get max suction. Well that much DC sucks the bristles right up into the port leaving the front end of the shoe wide open which is worse than less suction. The plastic strips remedy that but with short bits (less than an inch) the plastic strips will hit the work and knock the bristle plate loose. We play around with eliminating the thin plastic, and reducing DC suction but its better for us when the DC is pulling all the air it can.

We really only use the second spacer with the large fly cutter or when we are running 2" long or longer tools. But anything longer than 2" no amount of shoe is going to help.

They may well have changed up the tool rack. I have seen a recent one. Our machine is couple years old. You can tell how much room youll have by just taking your bristle plate off and hitting your Estop or stopping the machine in wincnc when the spindle drops to pickup/drop off a tool. You'll be able to look under there and see how much room you have for a spacer.