Nederman vs ClearVue vs Oneida — yes another dust collection query

Hello all. I’ve moved into a new shop. Finally in a building I own — so I can do upgrades to my various systems without much anxiety about when the lease runs out. The first thing I want too get under control is proper dust management. After so many terrific comments on a previous thread, it is clear that that is where I’m lacking. Made so many calls and inquiries this week. But can never get enough insights from this community.

To recap here are my primary tools:

• 20” bandsaw
  
• 12” jointer
  
• 20” planer
• 5hp industrial table saw
• 22” drum sander
• router table
  
• 12” bandsaw
  
• full size lathe
  
• 12” miter saw
  
• Drill press

Been doing a lot of research and obviously Bill Pentz’s name and excellent work keeps coming up. After having read pretty much everything he wrote on the subject, I was pretty sold on the ClearVue EV5 or CV max (really same machine) — but then had a few air filtration companies come to my shop to discuss duct work and several suggested I might want to look into something like the Nederman S500. Even when talking to the lovely rep at ClearVue, she said that with the EV5, you must have blast gates closed on most machines and really can run two machines at a time at best. The air filtration companies had said with something like the S500 I wouldn’t have to worry about closing blast gates and could get enough draw to leave most open and all would be fine. Is this possible? Seems almost too good to be true. Bringing the Oneida 5hp Dust Gorilla into consideration — they claim 3 machines with open blast gates, but not sure that is true and the numbers across the board seem very similar to EV5.

Although I’m largely a one man shop — I do have some interns that will often be working on different projects with me in the shop simultaneously. Being able to use several machines at the same time can be an asset.

The price disparity between EV5/Dust Gorilla and S500 is substantial — S500 is about $2500 more expensive. But I see it as a lot term investment that will pay dividends if claims are true. Another consideration is that I can have the S500 within a week — the EV5 is back ordered for AT LEAST 10 weeks. I’ve already lost so much work time due to the move. Of course, I could use my “chip collecting system” and respirators for next few months, and of course there’s the Oneida 5hp Dust Gorilla, which seems pretty identical to EV5, which is available immediately. The filters for the S500 are $20 whereas the ClearVue and Oneida are about 400. Footprints: S500: 7’ by 4’ vs EV5/Oneida: 5’ by 2’ — but I have the space for either. Also, apparently the Nederman is quiet relatively, which is less of consideration for me as I’m always wearing ear muffs and I’m not sure what can be louder than my planer.

Would appreciate any insights or experiences people have with Nederman or similar products for me to consider. And of course thoughts on my points above.

I haven't heard of anyone with all three of those machines so it might be difficult to find a fair comparison. Everyone can chime in on what they bought and are using.

After some research I bought the 5hp ClearVue 1800 and find it far more than sufficient for my use, primarily 18" bandsaw, tablesaw, 22" drum sander, belt/disk sander, and most important to me, the lathe. I use my planer outside and it makes a lot of chips but any of those machines should handle those with a big enough drum, one emptied often, or vented outside. I really like the clear clone of the ClearVue to evaluate the initial installation and to occasionally monitor the function.

JKJ

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Originally Posted by Ollie McDottie

Hello all. I’ve moved into a new shop. Finally in a building I own — so I can do upgrades to my various systems without much anxiety about when the lease runs out. The first thing I want too get under control is proper dust management. After so many terrific comments on a previous thread, it is clear that that is where I’m lacking. Made so many calls and inquiries this week. But can never get enough insights from this community.

To recap here are my primary tools:

• 20” bandsaw
  
• 12” jointer
  
• 20” planer
• 5hp industrial table saw
• 22” drum sander
• router table
  
• 12” bandsaw
  
• full size lathe
  
• 12” miter saw
  
• Drill press

Been doing a lot of research and obviously Bill Pentz’s name and excellent work keeps coming up. After having read pretty much everything he wrote on the subject, I was pretty sold on the ClearVue EV5 or CV max (really same machine) — but then had a few air filtration companies come to my shop to discuss duct work and several suggested I might want to look into something like the Nederman S500. Even when talking to the lovely rep at ClearVue, she said that with the EV5, you must have blast gates closed on most machines and really can run two machines at a time at best. The air filtration companies had said with something like the S500 I wouldn’t have to worry about closing blast gates and could get enough draw to leave most open and all would be fine. Is this possible? Seems almost too good to be true. Bringing the Oneida 5hp Dust Gorilla into consideration — they claim 3 machines with open blast gates, but not sure that is true and the numbers across the board seem very similar to EV5.

Although I’m largely a one man shop — I do have some interns that will often be working on different projects with me in the shop simultaneously. Being able to use several machines at the same time can be an asset.

The price disparity between EV5/Dust Gorilla and S500 is substantial — S500 is about $2500 more expensive. But I see it as a lot term investment that will pay dividends if claims are true. Another consideration is that I can have the S500 within a week — the EV5 is back ordered for AT LEAST 10 weeks. I’ve already lost so much work time due to the move. Of course, I could use my “chip collecting system” and respirators for next few months, and of course there’s the Oneida 5hp Dust Gorilla, which seems pretty identical to EV5, which is available immediately. The filters for the S500 are $20 whereas the ClearVue and Oneida are about 400. Footprints: S500: 7’ by 4’ vs EV5/Oneida: 5’ by 2’ — but I have the space for either. Also, apparently the Nederman is quiet relatively, which is less of consideration for me as I’m always wearing ear muffs and I’m not sure what can be louder than my planer.

Would appreciate any insights or experiences people have with Nederman or similar products for me to consider. And of course thoughts on my points above.

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I've never heard of that third entry so I had to look it up. The Nederman S500 is definitely more of an industrial system...and an international company. Specs are pretty impressive. At $7500 they better be!

I'm personally considering what I"m going to put in the new shop when I finally get it built. Most likely, I'll stick with Oneida and go with the 3 or 5 hp Dust Gorilla Pro. I've been very pleased with the company and both systems that I've owned from them in the last over two decades of having a shop. I like metal, so the only ClearVue that would be suitable for me would be the EFS.

I only have experience with the Clear Vue cyclones (CV1800 and now the CVMax). What I've liked about the Clear Vue cyclones is the dust separation. Virtually all the dust is separated out to the the dust barrel, not to the filters. I'm told that this excellent dust separation is a function of the long cone design (by Bill Pentz) used in the Clear Vue cyclones. The shorter body cyclones reportedly do not achieve the same level of separation and, accordingly, more dust stays in the exhaust to be dealt with by whatever filters are installed.

As to numbers of blast gates open, the air flow from the CVMax is designed to fully handle two machines operating at the same time as long as each machine is on a separate 6" drop connected to the main 8" trunk line.

I have a large Nederman 10hp dust collector and love it. I came from a 5HP Grizzly and obviously the Nederman is substantially better. I often leave 3 to 4 blast gates open and never lack for chip or dust removal. The Nederman units are for industrial applications yes but even as a hobbyist or semi professional my opinion is always buy industrial equipment when ever possible because it is always flat out better. Both in performance and life span. That Nederman will be the last dust collector you ever buy. Mine has 24” x 72” filter bags and the collection bags are the same size. The only thing that I wish I could do with mine is to add a cyclone but cyclones for a large 10hp dust collector are hard to find as it would require something much larger than even the Super Dust Deputy XL or what ever it’s called. My Nederman is ran all day every day and never hiccups. Mine is 3ph too.

Btw- if anyone knows of a cyclone capable of mating up to my 10hp Nederman please let me know. It has a 12” intake and my trunk line is 12” too.

Bobby, you can get a cyclone separator for your big DC from Oneida. https://www.oneida-air.com/dust-coll...one-separators

How is the air quality coming out of the Nederman S units?

Based on Mcmaster or other sellers of bags and filters, bags do not have the same filtration level than cartridge filters, like in the tens of micron for bags and in the micron or less for filters.

Assuming you catch all the dust at the tools, a dust collection system with cartridge filters will be better that one with bags. Unless you can separate the small particles before you hit the bag/filter. I do not see how the Nederman S design allows you to separate the small particles.

Bruno, the Nederman is an industrial design/system and has to meet pretty stringent standards in the commercial space. In the US, in order for the filtration to even be "inside" the shop, the unit has to have a pretty substantial filtration specification to be acceptable to OSHA. Bags vs cartridges doesn't matter at that point...either one has to mee the standard.

No ability to compare my system to the Nederman, but I'm very happy with my Oneida 5HP Dust Gorilla. I routinely have 2 gates open, and no real issues, though it does work better on the wide belt sander with only that gate open.

I suspect the Nederman is not a really good choice for a hobby level shop. It doesn't have a lot of static pressure capability. This limits it's performance for smaller port equipment. It also makes cyclone choice more difficult.

I like to compare fan curves and see how they match up with various system curves, so this is how I compare the three options that have been discussed here:

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment....7&d=1623000499

You can see that for 8" class ports the Nederman does really well. For 6" they're all about the same. For the small ports the VFD on the SDG is able to spin up a lot more pressure and so does the best.

Most hobbyist equipment will have 6" or smaller ports so the CV or SDG would be the better choice in my opinion.

Oops, sorry about the lack of labels on the graph. That's inches water column on the vertical axis and CFM on horizontal.

David, you bring up something I like about the SDG 5....the "smart" hi-vac feature which can add a lot more versatility. That's why it's prime on my list for my new shop in addition to my very positivie experiences with the company on two units over time.

I have a number of shops with Nederman systems. Quality DC's but way overkill for the average home shop. I think a cyclone of those brands listed is what most hobbyists are looking for.

Erik

David,
According to your chart, the Nederman has a flat curve which is indicative of the blower type and also means it has a constant flow for various gates open up to about 2000 CFM+. This looks like a PD blower, not a centrifugal fan, but the photos I see look like a centrifugal fan, but I could be looking at the wrong thing. The constant pressure curve is definitely a benefit for multiple users and various gates open. This is what the Oneida smart system is doing with a VFD on a centrifugal blower. The other two systems really can't support more than a couple of gates open at a time.

Bruno, The Nederman being commercial/light industrial will (at least should) have more accurate data available regarding flow vs pressure performance as well as filtration. Cartridge vs filter for wood dust doesn't matter on filtration, its about the filter media. For most industrial wood applications, you want bags instead of cartridges as they are easier to clean.

Bobby, As for cyclones available for a "large" 10HP system, there are lots of those available. That's actually a very small industrial system. Look used, maybe a Donaldson, Carter Day, Agget, MAC, Dustex, etc. Some of ours (Fisher-Klosterman) are out there too, used. Ours are custom designed, so the cyclone may look odd depending on what it was made for when you compare to what most see for hobby/commercial shops.

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Originally Posted by Michael W. Clark

David,
According to your chart, the Nederman has a flat curve which is indicative of the blower type and also means it has a constant flow for various gates open up to about 2000 CFM+. This looks like a PD blower, not a centrifugal fan, but the photos I see look like a centrifugal fan, but I could be looking at the wrong thing. The constant pressure curve is definitely a benefit for multiple users and various gates open. This is what the Oneida smart system is doing with a VFD on a centrifugal blower. The other two systems really can't support more than a couple of gates open at a time.

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Michael, it's the scale of the graph that makes the curve look so flat. I had to scale it to fit all three curves. Nederman provided three data points and, seeing what appeared to me also to be a centrifugal fan, I fit a simple parabolic curve to these data points. Here's the graph at a different scale, including Nederman's data points:

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment....6&d=1623488006

Have the ClearVue CVMAX 16" impeller with 8" intake and love it. After researching I found this to be a great option for dust collection and the most affordable. Yes, metal ones may look nicer (Yellow or Blue brands) but they also come a steep $ premium and I don't see data that suggests they suck any better or last any longer. So if you like "Purdy" and have extra cash to burn the metal ones are an option.