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I'm thinking about keeping some saws in a fitted leather case/blade guard. I vaguely recall someone telling me never to store steel in a leather sheath as it will cause rust.
Yet, leather was what knives and such were sheathed in historically.
Anyone have any experience here? Liberally coat inside of leather with oil first? Or is it not a problem.
The issue is with chromium tanned leather as this may contain minerals that attract rust. Veg tanned leather is fine but you don't find this in the really thin pieces of leather.
Austin is pretty dry. Rust probably won't afflict your tools the way it does in Houston.
FYI - plastic binding bars slide over saw teeth and protect the edges from mechanical damage, while stored.
See : paper binding straps, binding bars, saw blade guard
https://toolsforworkingwood.com/stor..._-_5_Feet_long
I wouldn't do it. Rust inducing.
It depends on the leather and the steel. The tanning process involves acid and in theory after tanning the leather is returned to a normal PH level. However, in reality, some tanners get it back to normal pH and some don’t depending on how fast they try to go ($$$). Veg tan is a considerably slower process than chrome tan so it wouldn’t shock me if chrome tan is more likely to have an out of whack pH in the finished product, but I really don’t know – but generally speaking, for any kind of sheath you would want veg tan anyway. If your leather has elevated acidity, then it’s going to cause problems with your steel. If it’s a higher quality leather and a normal pH, then it will not do anything to your steel. It can be hard to know what you’ve got unless you can speak directly to the tannery (although I’m guessing it shouldn’t be hard to test yourself…. I should ask my scientist wife about that). The other factor is your steel and what anti-corrosive properties it has, or doesn’t have. Even for a pure carbon steel a patina (natural or forced; it doesn’t matter how you get there) will provide a surprising amount of corrosion resistance. Moisture isn’t exactly the direct culprit with a sheath – it’s that the moisture creates a pathway for acid in the leather to leach off into the steel. I can’t think of any reason that a leather sheath would actually increase moisture levels above that of the environment…. Unless you get the sheath wet for some reason (like working outside).
In summary, there is no universal sheathes cause rust or they don't. It's more like acidic sheaths cause rust and non-acidic ones don't. This is why there are such wild differences in experience with rust and leather sheaths. You’ve got guys who store their carbon knives in sheaths always for the past 60 years with no problems and others who get rust in a day.
What I can say is this. Use a full grain veg tan leather and don’t mess with chrome tanned for a sheath. Keep your leather in good health with an oil conditioner inside and out.
I recently re-stitched the sheath for my dad’s old bowie knife (carbon steel). The knife has been sitting in that sheath for 30 years straight. Zero rust. And this knife was in Oregon (Willamette Valley) until it came to Maryland – so that’s a lot of freakin’ humidity!
Alternatives for protecting teeth would be the plastic binding bars used for report covers, or if you want something more traditional you can make a wooden blade guard from scrap wood.
Interesting, in the organ world every builder and rebuilder I know of insists on chrome tanned leathers for pneumatics, valves, and gaskets because of much greater longevity and less propensity to cause corrosion of metal parts that are in contact with the leather. The stuff we use is wicked expensive, so perhaps it has been properly pH neutralized. I buy mine from Columbia Organ Leathers. I've seen some work done with veg tanned leather and it failed within a decade; the instrument I'm working on now has leather installed in 1899 that is still in remarkably good shape where it was protected. It is in contact with steel and brass pieces and there is little to no corrosion after 120 years except where the mice peed on it.
Chris,
That’s really interesting. I’ve kept a set of Lie-Nielsen chisels in their leather chisel roll for two decades without a speck of rust, so I always figured people who claim leather causes rust were mistaken. But thanks to your explanation I now get it. Gotta figure LN knows what type of leather to use.
Just to clarify on my speculation on pH with chrome tanned – my rationale is that most chrome tanning is done because of cost cutting. Because you can only hang so much leather in a warehouse you can process more than 20x the chrome than the veg. So most low quality leather is chrome tan and most of it is the tannery just trying to go as fast as physically possible. So that's why I speculated that they are less likely to get the leather back to a neutral pH. That said, there IS very high quality chrome tan and it can be expensive. There are pros and cons to both so ideally you pick the right leather for the right product. But *most* chrome tan is made because it’s typically cheaper to produce for most consumer products. You will see chrome tan in situations where veg tan would be the better option, but you generally won’t see veg tan when chrome tan would be the better option.
The reason veg tan is good for a sheath is because it is generally much harder and stiffer than chrome tan. The edges (which are typically exposed on a sheath) can be burnished easily rather than having to be folded over, it can be wet molded (to fit the contours of a tool), and it can take a lot of hard abuse. So it gets used a lot for sheaths, holsters, tool belts, etc. etc. Because it is not very water repellent and stiff like cardboard without any moisture, you have to keep up with maintenance oiling/condition it. Chrome tan is typically softer and more pliable. It’s good for things that need a lot of flexibility and need to feel comfortable (think clothes, purses, shoes) or things that need to be kind of squishy. It’s also fairly water repellent and generally requires considerably less maintenance than veg tan.
Additionally, if you make your own sheath, veg tan is easily stitched by hand with two needles and a stitching pony (btw - a hand screw clamp in your vise will work just as well! I know because that's how I do it!!!). You don't need an industrial machine. For chrome tan, it's hard to stitch by hand because it's too pliable/soft. You kind of need a machine designed for leather (or a home sewing machine with a powerful enough motor and a walking foot) and that's a bit of an investment.
The chromium tanned leather from Horween is top notch but others may be more on the cost cutting side as you say Chris.
I have a leather LN sheath for a LN dovetail saw, and was thinking of making more for my other backsaws. But I've never used the LN leather sheath because of the rust concerns. Anyone know if the LN sheath is safe to store the saw in?
Hi Folks,
I have a set of Irwin auger bits that is in the same leather roll that I bought them in about 45 years ago. It was the auction of an old carpenter, I would guess him to be near 80, and the roll was made from leather from an old coat. I have no idea how long he had kept them in that roll, but based on the sharpening wear it was likely a very long time. All told, I would not be surprised if those bits have been in that roll 70 years or so. No rust to speak of.
With regard to veg tanned leather, I had a conversation with a shoe repairman, probably very roughly 20 years ago (give or take), and he pointed out that quite a bit of it comes from China now (at that time), and the quality of that veg tanned leather is not nearly as good as that made in the USA. This may have a huge affect on the lifetime of such leather.
I wanted to make a couple of sheaths for two old draw knives, and the folks at the Tandy leather place told me that I definitely wanted veg tanned, not chrome tanned, because it was not corrosive, whereas chrome tanned leather was corrosive. Whether such is correct or not, I do not know, but I did buy the veg tanned.
Regards,
Stew
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich Weidner
I would say that it's highly unlikely that Tom sources his leather from some backyard Chinese dog skin leather shop so I would test it for a week and then regularly keep an eye on it.
I have a LN dovetail that has always been stored in the LN leather sheath for the 20 years I have owned the saw, never had an issue with rust. I keep the saw in the sheath, mainly because I store the saw in a drawer underneath my workbench. YMMV..
I keep my mirror polished bowie knife which I made,and have posted pictures of here in the past,in a vegetable tanned knife sheath. Have done it for quite a few years and no rust yet. It has always been INSIDE the heated and air conditioned house. In an unheated shed,I would not trust the leather to absorb some moisture as it will get moldy for certain.
On the other hand,I have a lipped adze which is in its original antique veggy tanned sheath,and it hasn't rusted either. No telling where it may have been kept before I got it. I trust keeping a sheathed blade INSIDE the house the most as I HAVE seen plenty of badly molded leather kept in sheds.
Good one Hilton. :p