12" sliding -vs- 12" non-sliding miter Saw...is it worth the extra $$.?

[Robert Dick]

Santa brought me a DeWalt Dw716 miter saw yesterday and while it was a surprise and is a nice saw, I have been admiring the DW718 12" slider for a while. The difference at HD or Lowes is about $250, so the question is in the real world is the sliding reach really worth the extra money? I do the majority of my work at the table saw, and want the miter saw to do cut offs and miter work which can be tedious at the table saw if it's not an in shop project. I'd love to hear your comments....
Thanks
Robert

[Ted Shrader]

Robert -

First of all, Welcome to the Creek. Glad to have you aboard.

I got a DW718 about a year ago to replace my DeWalt 12" CMS just for the extra cut off capacity. This is especially critical when making angled cuts. A sled on the table saw can make accurate 90° cuts. But for angled cuts, the CMS or SCMS is hard to beat. The extra capacity on the DW718 has really come in handy for wider boards than the regular CMS could handle.

Welcome,
Ted

[Larry Edgerton]

My suggestion to you is to take the Dewalt back, and buy a Makita or Hitachi slider, and not a 12", get a 10". I know a lot of people on here have Dewalts and think they are awesome, but I disagree. I don't own just one saw I own many, and the Dewalt are good for cutting framing and thats all. You can trim with them, but why fight a saw that is subpar.

I say get a 10" because there is too much flex in a 12" blade on a slider, and in a compound cut the 10" will just do a better job, and you do not lose enough capacity to worry about. In fact you lose only depth.

I like the Hitachi 10" the best, Makita second. My Dewalts set on a shelf waiting for a dirty job I don't want to mess up my good saws with. One has been religated to a metal cutoff saw.

Another point in favor of the 10 inch is blade price and selection. You will be able to buy blades more often with the same money or just spend less. The Hitachi blades are as good as they get for sliders, even if they are not pretty.

We do a lot of wide trim like the attached photo, and as you can see a saw that can not do long accurate miters will just not cut it. Don't fight your tools.

[Steve Griffin]

There is certainly no one right choice for everyone.

I'm a fan of the 12" non-sliders, and have 3 of them for my business.

In the shop, the 8" capacity of a non-slider is good for 98% of my crosscut chores. The other 2% are easily done on the table saw which can handle up to 48" crosscut on the sliding table. I also save valuable shop space not having a sliding miter saw, as sliders need to be mounted farther from a back wall.

On the job site installing, they are lighter, cheaper and I can hardly think of a time when 8" wasn't enough.

For the cost savings on a slider miter saw you can do some wonderful things for your shop--another router, a kreg stop system for your miter saw, or half the cost of a slide table for your table saw.

I have never had the slightest interest in a 10", whether fixed or slider, as the thickness capacity is a huge problem.

-Steve

[Mark Bolton]

To the OP I would echo what Larry said with a couple additions. We run a Bosch 5412L and like it a lot. We had run the 10" version of this saw since it came out. I would echo Larry's issue with not only blade flexure but flexure in the slider itself. Most all have some and some are worse than others.

That said, we use a blade dampener on our 12" and it makes blade flexure a non issue. You still have the capacity of a 10" saw but if you need it you can remove the blade dampener and have the full capacity of the 12" which is very handy.

I really just think about your work and how many times do you need the capacity of the slider. If you would use it regularly I would upgrade however if the majority of your work can be handled with a CMS I would opt for the rigidity of a non slider.

To Larry, absolutely beautiful in that image. Very nice. We do a lot of wide custom finish trim. Those are the jobs I really enjoy.

Mark

[Jim Kountz]

I don't own just one saw I own many, and the Dewalt are good for cutting framing and thats all.

We do a lot of wide trim like the attached photo, and as you can see a saw that can not do long accurate miters will just not cut it. Don't fight your tools.

I dont want to make this a "my saw is better than your saw" thread but I do want to say to the OP that its simply not true that the only thing a Dewalt is good for is framing. I too have many miter saws (although I fail to see where the number of saws we own is relevant to the OP's question) and two of them are 12" Dewalt sliders. One I do have set up for framing and the other for trim. I do everything Larry showed in his picture and more with mine and it works fine. I can achieve nice tight long miters repeatedly and do so on a regular basis. So my point here again is not to start a contest but just to let the OP know that IF he really likes the Dewalt saws they are quite capable of anything you throw at them. I do agree that if you dont need the extra capacity a fixed saw is tighter and takes up a smaller footprint in the shop if space is an issue.

[Robert Dick]

Larry, your comment regarding the difference in flex between a 10" and 12" blade is good information. While I knew that the depth was an improvement on the going from a 10 to 12 I didn't expect the blade flex to be an issue. The question of real benefits between 10" and 12" sliders is another topic. It sounds like the additional reach of a slider reduces some of the drawbacks of the limited depth of the 10" ?

Oh before I forget....that's some nice looking case work !

[Dave Falkenstein]

What you need depends on what you do with the saw. Portability to and around a job site is easier with a CMS. If accuracy is a prime consideration, then brand can be important. I have used several CMS and SCMS both in the shop and on-site. I like the Dewalt 12" CMS on-site building decks for its durability and relatively light weight. I like the Hitachi 8-1/2" SCMS on-site installing cabinetry and shelving for its depth of cut, decent accuracy and relatively light weight. I use a Bosch 10" SCMS in my shop right now. I have used a Dewalt 12" SCMS on-site numerous times, and dread moving it from the trailer to the stand. 8-1/2", 10", 12", CMS, SCMS - help us help you by telling us what you do with your saw.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

My suggestion to you is to take the Dewalt back, and buy a Makita or Hitachi slider, and not a 12", get a 10". I know a lot of people on here have Dewalts and think they are awesome, but I disagree. I don't own just one saw I own many, and the Dewalt are good for cutting framing and thats all. You can trim with them, but why fight a saw that is subpar.

I say get a 10" because there is too much flex in a 12" blade on a slider, and in a compound cut the 10" will just do a better job, and you do not lose enough capacity to worry about. In fact you lose only depth.

I like the Hitachi 10" the best, Makita second. My Dewalts set on a shelf waiting for a dirty job I don't want to mess up my good saws with. One has been religated to a metal cutoff saw.

Another point in favor of the 10 inch is blade price and selection. You will be able to buy blades more often with the same money or just spend less. The Hitachi blades are as good as they get for sliders, even if they are not pretty.

We do a lot of wide trim like the attached photo, and as you can see a saw that can not do long accurate miters will just not cut it. Don't fight your tools.

My thoughts exactly and I did just that a year or so ago. I got a good deal on the 12" DW 716 and hated it. I had a Mkaita slider before that and while it was a good one, the Hitatchi beats it hands down on the jobsite. And it's light at 35 lbs so if you move it, you won't get a hernia.

I find a slider invaluable, but most other ww's don't. I will say that once you slide you'll likely never buy another saw that doesn't have that feature.

[Brian Peters]

IMO sliders are the best value. They are more functional than standard chop saws. Also if you're leaning towards dewalt I really encourage you to look for a used, older model one. I don't think the newer dewalt CMS's are as well made. And their latest 12" slider is pretty much an unimprovement and a down grade from their older 12" slider. Plus it is more expensive! Check the new saws out from several top brands; the 10" sliders have come a long way. Manufactors realized that people wanted 12" cross cutting capacity without a 12" blade (12" blade has too much deflection and wobbles a lot) and have listened to consumer's demands for that. I really like my bosch 12" slider but its heavy bulky; however very well made. But the older 12" dewalt slider is the best for the money hands down.

[Herbert Wallace]

I have a home wood hobby shop. I have used the delta 10" CMS for years. Have wanted to buy a 12" DW SCMS, But recently settled for the Cobalt 10" SCMS. I love it. Very accurate, wide cuts. Don't know ir it would stand up to a commercial environment, But for $229.00 You can't beat it.

[Robert Dick]

Dave,
To be honest I don't know what I need. I'm not a contractor that lives and dies by the saw on a daily basis. I'm a WW hobbiest that doesn't have enough space most of the time in the shop but I'm planning on starting a new shop building this summer . I do a good deal of mission work with my church in a lead craftsman or carpenter role and could get a good deal of use from a CMS or SCMS from time to time there. Most of the time is small projects in the shop and around the house. I have an older DeWalt 12" 3hp Radial Arm saw but don't have to room to set it up properly and frankly I learned on a table saw so I lean in that direction for 90%. I want a miter saw for the portability and accuracy as well as doing cutoffs to support my work at the other stations in the shop.
You all a are supplying a huge amount of good information based on experience for which I thank you. I wish I had fonud Sawmill Creek sooner.

[Bill White]

I will buy a 10" slider. Keep all my blades, etc.
Bill:D

[Joe Chritz]

Any well tuned SCMS can cut accurate cuts up to full capacity. Blade flex is the only issue on any 12" saw and that is blade dependent, not saw.

The space off the wall is a big trade off for some extra cutting capacity. Since I tend to do a fair number of cabinets I like to use the 12"' SCMS so I can cut off all my upper sides without having to handle a 8' sheet on the tablesaw sled.

Regardless you will find a lot of times you need 9" with an 8" cut off or 13" with a 12" cut off so it really probably doesn't matter much. I think if I already had a non-slider I wouldn't trade it and get one.

Joe

[Steve Griffin]

Well, no matter what you decide, the single most helpful thing I could contribute to Sawmill Creek is to encourage people to set up their miter saws well.

I would refuse to build even a shed without a nicely mounted miter saw and stop system. My time is just not worth horsing around with a tape measure, marking a length and then chasing it back and forth until it's lined up under the saw.

For rough carpentry, I can cut blocking as fast as I can pull the saw down. In the shop, I can cut 30 rails perfectly the same, or a single cut with quicker and with better acccuracy.

In the shop, I use the kreg track and flip stop system and it's good up to 8.5'. On the job, I use a reduced size version, and it can measure up to 5' on the left and uses a roller stand on the right.


-Steve

[Rick Lucrezi]

I didnt read all the posts so If I parrot what others said I appologize. I have a Bosch 12 in slider. I got it for deck building. I do alot of custom decks and cut compounds in 4x4 and 6x6 materials. For that and rough cuts for framing its fast and awsome. Other guys I work with use a dewalt 12 non slider. They cant 45 any thing bigger than 2x6. 8 inch siding needs to have the board lifted at the end of the cut. (Not osha approved). Pros and cons for me. My saw is very heavy, and you have to check your adjustments everytime you move it. (doesnt like to live in the back of a truck). The blade wobbles enough that I dont like it for fine finnish.
So suming it up, for framing, building roof packs, decking and the like, a 12 inch slider is great, but everything can be done with a worm saw and a beam saw which you could buy both for the price of my slider. For fine finnish work a 10 inch slider would be more practicle. Either choice would be more efficient mounted on a solid stand with extended fences, and indexed tables with adjustable stops. They were made to make life easier and quicker, but the time it takes to measure and align a cut doesnt justify the price. You can make your own table and fence system for under a 100 bucks too. So to answer your question? Sliders are more versitile if you do compounds on larger stock, 12 inch does bigger material but at the cost of weight and accuracy. (at least my bosch anyway). What ever you chose to do, you should be thankfull for the gift. I know that I have made some bad remarks in the past about the type or quality of tools I have recieved and I no longer get tools or shop stuff any more. I got a popcorn maker this year. Happy Holidays:)

[Robert Dick]

Rick,
I was both surprised and thankful for the gift, as I too have learned that it is better to receive tools of almost any kind than popcorn poppers :-)
After considering the many comments to my question, and having gone to Lowes and taken a few measurements. I will either stay with the 12"CMS or will trade up to a 10" SCMS. The two points I am considering now are blade flex in the 12"CMS and the additional 10" bench depth required for the slider. the bench top would need to be 28" for any of the CMS I measures 8",10" or 12" but the SCMS jumped to 38" not to mention that the overall weight of the SCMS, are about 10lbs more that the 12" CMS.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Robert - You are certainly correct about the added depth needed to mount a SCMS in your shop. My setup is just about 38" deep. If space is an important factor, you will be happier with a CMS. Portability is another issue, and any CMS is easier to transport.

It seems that you might be just as well off keeping the saw you got as a gift, making the gift giver happy that you liked the gift. When your needs outgrow that saw, sell it and buy another. I have a Bosch 10" SCMS because a good friend bought it and discovered it was too big (deep) for his small shop. It was virtually new, and I bought it for $450. I then sold an older Hitachi 8-1/2" SCMS I had for $250, including several 8-1/2" blades. So my new Bosch cost me only $200, net. Such a deal! Oh yes, and another $100 for a decent blade.

One thing that has been mentioned - get a high quality blade for your saw. I use a Forrest Chopmaster for finer cuts and the OEM blades for lumber.

[Rick Lucrezi]

[quote=
. I have a Bosch 10" SCMS quote]

How does the bosch compare to the Hitachi? I used the Hitachi on a job once and fell in love with the quality of the cut, but had a hard time with the handle. The Bosch spoiled me with the handle and switch, also the all the adjustments are up front. Are you happier with the Bosch?

[Tom Godley]

I picked up a DW718 w/laser, stand and 3 blades -- it was all part of a special package a few months ago for a little less than $600.00. I properly set it up and have been very happy with it!

Like others have said it really does depend on what you want it for - I am just a general hobby woodworker. I have worked on every house I have ever owned and years ago did a lot of work on rentals I owned -- but I am not a contractor that needs to set up shop in a different house every week or one who is cutting $20.00 a foot cherry moulding.

For many years I used a craftsman tool that was a precursor to the chop miter saw -- it looked like a small radial arm saw. When I was first "blessed" with a second house I purchased a Hitachi 8.5 saw on the correct recommendation that at the time it was one of the best for trim work. I was happy with the craftsman and its size but was tired of transporting it between the two houses.

Both of these saws are fine but they max out at a 2x10 - but it never really mattered. The decks I had to build were all built using them going with a circular saw for the 2x12s or when that saw proved easier/faster to do the job.

You will get many recommendations -- and some saws are better out of the box for particular types of work. I make a lot of picture frames and items that require small moldings. Since I learned on that old craftsman I got used to a smaller blade and feel very comfortable with it -- in my hand that saw is extremely accurate.

The DW718 like all 12" saws is big and heavy and I would not want to be transporting that saw unless I really needed the capacity.

Having purchased another old (c1873) house a few years ago -- the projects are numerous! In the few months I have owned the DW718 I have been surprised at how many times I have used the 12" capacity. Also, as I have become a little more comfortable with that big blade I have used it more and more - I have found it to be a very capable saw.

I really like the sliders -- I would not get a chop saw -- the slider allows the smaller blade saws to achieve so much more. Moving up to the 12" blade slider allows you almost all of the flexibility you will ever need.

When I was looking at saws a few years ago with a friend - we tried all of them -- trying to find the right balance of price/ quality in a 12" saw. He ended up with the Hitachi slider that he picked up on sale - I think he would have been just as happy with the Mikita but it was $100.00 dollars more. The Dewalt was priced between the two and we felt it was a little bigger and the spring a little too strong! The problem with me giving this advise to you is that all of the saws have been replaced with new models and they are all made in China -- the Hitachi my friend bought was made in Japan!

So the finish quality of all of them has dropped.

I will add that I was able use the DW718 alongside the new Milwaukee miter saw cutting various trim and 2x. The Milwaukee is very nice ...not perfect but I think a better execution over DW718 -- but it was $699 for just the saw.

[Dave Falkenstein]

How does the bosch compare to the Hitachi? I used the Hitachi on a job once and fell in love with the quality of the cut, but had a hard time with the handle. The Bosch spoiled me with the handle and switch, also the all the adjustments are up front. Are you happier with the Bosch?

Rick - It is a bit hard for me to compare the two saws head-to-head. The Hitachi was bought years ago, and was a single bevel saw. It worked really well, and needed almost no adjusting, even after moving it to job sites and back. The Bosch is a much newer model with double bevel. I really like the Bosch with the up front controls. After I figured out how to correctly adjust the angle settings, it holds them well, but I only have used it in the shop. Both are good brands, IMHO. I use(d) Forrest Chopmaster blades on both saws, and think they are excellent.

[Larry Edgerton]

My thoughts exactly and I did just that a year or so ago. I got a good deal on the 12" DW 716 and hated it. I had a Mkaita slider before that and while it was a good one, the Hitatchi beats it hands down on the jobsite. And it's light at 35 lbs so if you move it, you won't get a hernia.

I find a slider invaluable, but most other ww's don't. I will say that once you slide you'll likely never buy another saw that doesn't have that feature.

Hey, I like the truck. Chevy, 67, CST? The one and only thing I miss about Texas. Old trucks everywhere!

[Joe Vincent]

I have the older DeWalt 12" SCMS (I think the model is 708) and I like it. I rarely need the sliding capacity but that's up to you to consider based on what your needs are and will be. There have been many great posts in this thread about the capacity issues. And a 12" slider definitely can be a pain to transport if you plan to take it anywhere but in your shop. Do know that you will likely want to get a really good blade for it. The Forrest Chopmaster is great as are some of the Freud blades.

[William OConnell]

I just don't get it.
I really don't.
Ive been framing houses for money for 29 years and have never seen a a sliding compound miter saw useful on ANY framing job. So anyone on the internet who says a sliding miter saw is good for framing is going to have me disagreeing with them. Throwing heavy timbers atop one of these saws doesn't make sense to me.
I can cut all the rafters on a 3000 sq. ft. house in a day with one helper, california valleys and all. All I would need or use is a circular saw, a calculator, a framing square and a pencil. We frame round rooms with a circular saws. We frame radius plates with a circular saw all the time.

Heres something else I don't get
Who's flexing these 12" blades?
Not us and the blades we use. Must be some cheesy blades, some improper feed rate, or material movement is all I can think of.
I have a 12" dewalt 708 in the shop for FINE work. The newer dewalt ( 718 I believe) doesn't seem nearly as stout as the one I have, but flexing blades? hmm, I don't know buy a good blade I guess.
Some guys that work for me have the 10" makitas. Nice saws. Not my cup of tea or comfortable for me but still very nice saws.
My stair guy uses an older 8 1/2" hitachi slider to do beautiful work. I consider him the grand pubah of stair guys and he loves his saw
As far as a slider and a non slider. To me it seems to be a no brainer sliders are much more versatile.
Just one guys experience

[Rick Lucrezi]

I just don't get it.
I really don't.
Ive been framing houses for money for 29 years and have never seen a a sliding compound miter saw useful on ANY framing job. So anyone on the internet who says a sliding miter saw is good for framing is going to have me disagreeing with them. Throwing heavy timers atop one of these saws doesn't make sense to me.
I can cut all the rafters on a 3000 sq. ft. house in a day with one helper, california valleys and all. All I would need or use is a circular saw, a calculator, a framing square and a pencil. We frame round rooms with a circular saws. We frame radius plates with a circular saw all the time.

Heres something else I don't get
Who's flexing these 12" blades?
Not us and the blades we use. Must be some cheesy blades, some improper feed rate, or material movement is all I can think of.
I have a 12" dewalt 708 in the shop for FINE work. The newer dewalt ( 718 I believe) doesn't seem nearly as stout as the one I have, but flexing blades? hmm, I don't know buy a good blade I guess.
Some guys that work for me have the 10" makitas. Nice saws. Not my cup of tea or comfortable for me but still very nice saws.
My stair guy uses an older 8 1/2" hitachi slider to do beautiful work. I consider him the grand pubah of stair guys and he loves his saw
As far as a slider and a non slider. To me it seems to be a no brainer sliders are much more versatile.
Just one guys experience

Your the man!!!:D

[Tom Godley]

William, I believe your thoughts on this are very valuable.

It may be a regional thing -- but in the NE most of the jobs I see the framers all use circular saws. I do see a lot of the new Mikita worm drive saws - maybe because they are not only good but are tough and very reasonably priced.

Robert originally asked a one vs another question and there is no easy answer.


I have been working on all kinds of projects around the house this past year From cutting large pressure treated lumber - both 2x and 4x, 3/4 and 5/4 boards for shelving. I had to cut a lot of random flooring - even cut up a lot of old wood that was going in the trash!

The beauty of the larger CMS is I was able to do it all in a safe and accurate manner with one saw. They allow the amateur woodworker a level of skill that would not be achievable easily on projects that may only be tackled once or twice.

I helped a friend who was trying to build some shelves for a recently purchased house. He was not able to use a circular saw well enough to cut wide board for shelves - with some simple safety skills he was easily able to achieve enough accuracy with a CMS.

The 12" saws are great general purpose tools.

[Mark Bolton]

I would refuse to build even a shed without a nicely mounted miter saw and stop system. My time is just not worth horsing around with a tape measure, marking a length and then chasing it back and forth until it's lined up under the saw.-Steve

And if you worked "in the field" for any amount of time your shed building business would likely be broke and filing with a lawyer before your 6th shed. The simple fact of the matter is shop work is shop work and field work is field work. Most crews would have a shed half cut by the time you got your saw setup and dialed in, cord run, belt on, and measured to your first stop. They would be packing up their tools, cleaned up, and cashed the check, while you are still figuring out why your studs are +/- 1/8".

As other posts have already stated, the most complex of homes are built daily, precisely, and profitably, cutting with nothing more than a circular saw, calc, chaulk line, pencil, tape, and speed square. While I dont like it, +/- 1/4" (or more) is the norm in these situations.

In a controled environment, mass production style, sure. In the field no way in h*ll.

I dont mean to sound defensive but in my opinon a 12" SCMS can be used effectively in *all* situations with a dampener. We have a Bosch 5412L that us used for finish trim, framing on occasion (when my wife is cutting compounds for us), vinyl siding (crosscuts D5 with no rocking), and everying else a construction saw would be used for. It is then slid into its slot in the shop, blade changed and cuts custom trim and millwork.

To the OP's original question, it is an issue of how often will the depth and reach of a 12" SCMS be a _neccessity_ to you? For us it is regularly handy, for others it may be a rare occasion. That said, when we are talking about "hobby" we are often talking about 3HP cabinet saws that see 5 hours of total use per year. So "over buying" is a bit of a non-sequireur(sp) generally speaking. I could only wish to have such a luxury.

A parallel universe would be we are currently setting up a semi-fulltime custom woodworking shop. This is being done under the ospices(sp) of a strict business plan and an even stricter budget. We have just installed a 2HP cyclone for 1/2 of the shops demands when perhaps a 3HP or larger would have been the choice if it was a "hobby" funded by other sources and used one weekend a month if that.

You must honestly _and in an unbiased way_ consider the use. Not the want or the "maybe one day's".

Mark

[Steve Griffin]

Really MR expert?
As matter a fact, I am in a very successful business for myself, and while most is shop work, spend plenty of time on jobsites for 5-10 million dollar homes. Not a single one has a builder without a Sliding miter saw on hand for framing.

I slide my saw and stop system out of the back of a truck on onto some sawhorses in about 4 minutes. I agree for really small jobs, 4 minutes might not be worth it.

Need 20 6' rafters? I bet you a bag of donuts can cut them faster than you and your tape measure, speed square, pencil and circ. saw. Now for studs, or long rafters, I agree cutting off the stack with Circ. saw is the way to go.

I would love to have a cut list of 50 pieces of fire blocking and compare my time to produce it to the finest carpenters.

But hey, I understand the resistance to anything new.

-Steve

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Really MR expert?
As matter a fact, I am in a very successful business for myself, and while most is shop work, spend plenty of time on jobsites for 5-10 million dollar homes. Not a single one has a builder without a Sliding miter saw on hand for framing.

I slide my saw and stop system out of the back of a truck on onto some sawhorses in about 4 minutes. I agree for really small jobs, 4 minutes might not be worth it.

Need 20 6' rafters? I bet you a bag of donuts can cut them faster than you and your tape measure, speed square, pencil and circ. saw. Now for studs, or long rafters, I agree cutting off the stack with Circ. saw is the way to go.

I would love to have a cut list of 50 pieces of fire blocking and compare my time to produce it to the finest carpenters.

But hey, I understand the resistance to anything new.

-Steve

Right there with ya Steve...I can toss stock up on the saw and cut like a speed demon....Circ saws slow me down considerably. Never met a framer that can cut with the accuracy or speed I can.

[Karl Brogger]

My suggestion to you is to take the Dewalt back, and buy a Makita or Hitachi slider, and not a 12", get a 10". I know a lot of people on here have Dewalts and think they are awesome, but I disagree. I don't own just one saw I own many, and the Dewalt are good for cutting framing and thats all. You can trim with them, but why fight a saw that is subpar.

I say get a 10" because there is too much flex in a 12" blade on a slider, and in a compound cut the 10" will just do a better job, and you do not lose enough capacity to worry about. In fact you lose only depth.

I like the Hitachi 10" the best, Makita second. My Dewalts set on a shelf waiting for a dirty job I don't want to mess up my good saws with. One has been religated to a metal cutoff saw.


I would second these statements. I've disliked, and been disappointed in virtually every DeWalt tool I've ever owned.

[Robert Dick]

Well after reading all the well considered comments both based on experience and opinion I'm going to stay with the DW716 and use the additional money I save for another tool. :D If I were buying the tool outright with the consideration of keeping it on a bench, I might even have come to the same choice...12" CMS rather than a slider for the simple savings of the bench depth requirement.
I picked up a blade shadow light for the saw today (included with the saw if bought between 11/1 and 12/31) . It's not a laser, but the shadow function seems very accurate from the little I have played with it so far. Any thoughts on how the light works in natural lighting?

THANKS to all who have put their 2 cents in ! This is a great source of information !

-Robert

[Mark Bolton]

Really MR expert?

But hey, I understand the resistance to anything new.

-Steve

Look, dont take it the wrong way. I think my post stated pretty well that a SCMS is one of the first tools we roll out of the trailer at any job we are on. Thinking back 15 or more years I cant think of a job where we didnt have a saw setup.

I was speaking to the statement, given it was a generalization, that every project regardless of its size or complexity requires a CMS/SCMS, stand, extended fence, stop system, etc.. We use an SCMS more than most contractors we know because my wife works full time in the field and its easier for her to feed with the SCMS rather than a circular saw and speed square.

With regards to framing, at least for us, its more accurate, the end result is much better, however in many (I would say most with regards to framing which I would associate with even nice shed building) its slower. This for us means, while its nicer, we are working at a loss and the customer is getting something they likely arent paying for. Some repetitive and complex cuts yes, but on mass no. Now of course we could be talking about a 20+K shed for a luxury home but...

Its great for the economy to have the average joe thinking they need +$500 or more in tools and equipment to build a shed or small project however its actually just "nice" to have those tools, its not a necessity. The tool coral at the home center has conveniently made people forget (of course that the intent) that they can build a shed with less than $100 in tools if they need one. Circ. $60, Tape, $8, Speed square $8, Chaulk line $5, Level $15, and a pencil (free if you buy at the lumberyard, buy it if you are at the home center).

We have sub'd out site built sheds on jobs and they fly in with a single cord, circ, Paslode, and hand tools and *poof*. Scrap the Paslode and it would just be "p-o-o-o-o-f".

Mark

[Sonny Edmonds]

Larry,
You are a man after my own heart. I could not agree more.
And that is BEAUTIFUL work in the picture!

[Sam Whitman]

Robert,

I have been back and forth on this issue as well. I originally had a 12" Dewalt CMS which I really liked but the lack of capacity became a pain on some of my work. I sold it and purchased a Makita 10" SCMS. I enjoyed the significant increase in capacity but no matter how I tried, I could not keep cutting square - I even had a Makita rep look at it, he couldn't do anything with it either..... I sold that saw and went to a Delta 12" CMS with the vertical motor (I cant remember the model). This saw allows me almost 10" of cross cut with improved accuracy over the Makita. I am very happy with this purchase and would highly recommend it although I am not sure Delta still makes it.