Festool vs Sliding Table Saw

[John Kasparian]

In the next year, I will upgrade several main tools.

I have very limited space and have no plans to move out of it.

Ultimately I wish to move near to the professional 90 degree angle and other functionality that will last me the next 10 years. What do I get?

A low end sliding table saw for about 3k.
OR
A Festool setup including the MFT, Kapex, and a Saw for about 3k.

JK

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Big sliding table saws take up a lot of space, the tables move the range, each way. They are very convienient, and add a whole new dimension to woodworking. I think they are safer than a conventional TS as well. However, I don't know anything about the price range of saw you are thinking of, so which one do you have in mind? Used may fit that budget well, and get you into a good saw.

Festool will take up less space, but may have to be set up uniquely for each process, think moving rails to the next board for that matching dado. Festool will enable you to work safely as well. Festool will be pushing your budget too I'd bet.

How much space do you have? Do you just want 90 degree capability, if so how wide? What is the size of the stock you plan on using? What are you looking to be able to build?

[Jamie Buxton]

The Festool guided saw is good, but the MFT, IMHO, isn't sufficient for building cabinets. For cabinets, you need to be able to cut down full sheets of plywood. The MFT just isn't big enough. Furthermore, it has a tiny little device to set the 90 degree angle that you need, so its accuracy in that critical regard is questionable. A better approach to ninety degrees is to buy or build a biiiig square -- like 4'x4'. You can do this for $30 or so -- well less than an MFT. I built mine. It has an edge which hangs over the cut edge of the plywood to register the square to the plywood. I lay the square out, lay the short saw guide next to it, and I make a 90 degree cut. The cut is exactly 90 degrees because I tuned the square very carefully. Cheap, fast, and accurate.

[Rick Fisher]

When I was at the Felder store opening, I was oogling the Felder 500 slider.
The Austrian technical guy said it required a space of 19' x 12' the way it was set up. I think it had a 9' long beam and a 45" rip fence..

[Steve Rozmiarek]

When I was at the Felder store opening, I was oogling the Felder 500 slider.
The Austrian technical guy said it required a space of 19' x 12' the way it was set up. I think it had a 9' long beam and a 45" rip fence..

They are serious about those dimensions too. Anything in that zone will get clobbered by either an outrigger or the slider, if you are running the saw with goods at the capacity. Sweet machines though.

I underestimated the space requirement mine would take up, and I'm revision 12 or so on the the shop layout, trying to get everything to fit. Really don't want to move that big old bandsaw...

I have a 22x24 shop, which contains the Felder CF741 combo with an 8 1/2' slider, and something like a 5' outrigger table (which will extend to 8'), a 4x7 workbench/assembly table, a 36" bandsaw, a 14" bandsaw, a drill press, and a chop saw. There are also two fridges in there, various doors and windows, and the usual other odds and ends. The combo saved room, and gained big capacity and quality over the individual machines I just sold, but as of right now, not a lot of room. I will get it figured out...

[Jim Becker]

I have both setups, although my slider isn't really low-end. (MM S315WS) In the shop, I much prefer the slider and only pull out the MFT and plunge saw when I need to work in the house or there is some kind of special need. I would say that the Festool setup will be fine for lower volume work, but if you're going to be cranking out cabinets, you'll be better served by the slider. But in that, keep in mind what others have said about space since you'll want an 8'6" slider if you want to be able rip sheet goods using the wagon rather than a rip fence. My slider needs 19' for the full throw of the wagon.

[frank shic]

another consideration is an exaktor sliding table which allows you to crosscut a full sheet of plywood. it still takes up a fair amount of garage space but not as much as an 8 foot slider! i would much rather shove a piece of ply through the table saw and utilize it's rip fence than setup a table, the circular saw guide and then have to set up each cut. it's also much easier to get square cuts on a sliding table from my experience.

[Mike Heidrick]

Any cosideration to a Panel Saw? The space required there is minimized by the ability to put it against a wall. I do not think you get away from still needing a tablesaw but it will not be the size required by a full on slider or TS with Exaktor. Break down the plywood on the panel saw and then move to a cabinet saw. Install a Jessem slider table to use there.

[Wade Lippman]

I just made a desk to go in a corner.
A large slider would have been fine for it, but would take up my whole basement.
A TS55 with a long rail made short work of it. Okay, setup took a few minutes, but wasn't a big deal.

If you are short on space, there is only one choice.

If you have room to leave a MFT set up (I don't, my MFT is built into my fold down TS outfeed table) you can probably get by without a Kapex, though it is certainly more convenient.

[Roy Wall]

The Festool guided saw is good, but the MFT, IMHO, isn't sufficient for building cabinets. For cabinets, you need to be able to cut down full sheets of plywood. The MFT just isn't big enough. Furthermore, it has a tiny little device to set the 90 degree angle that you need, so its accuracy in that critical regard is questionable. A better approach to ninety degrees is to buy or build a biiiig square -- like 4'x4'. You can do this for $30 or so -- well less than an MFT. I built mine. It has an edge which hangs over the cut edge of the plywood to register the square to the plywood. I lay the square out, lay the short saw guide next to it, and I make a 90 degree cut. The cut is exactly 90 degrees because I tuned the square very carefully. Cheap, fast, and accurate.

Jamie --

Could you post a pic or two of the square? Sounds like a good jig!

Sorry for the hijack..........

[Jamie Buxton]

Roy, here's the thread where I discussed it.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=49778&highlight=festool

Having had the saw a couple years now, I find that I use the square a lot, and the parallel things almost never.

[John Kasparian]

Thanks for good replies.
Right now, it seems that hobby woodworking will move into the next level with smaller footprints. I am trying to figure how it will play out without making purchases for something outdated in a few years for my 15x15 shop.

Festool is now almost mainstreamed. Knock offs keep arriving within the home market.

Saw Stop just released a low end, bringing extreme safety to the garage.

The jointer/planer popularity has stepped up due to the cost of the spiral cutters for two separate tools.

Laguna has pushed marketing for their Euro 5 combo machine, along with at least 3 other companies.

Everything to me seems to point toward the multi-function solutions. It’s just a challenge to try and sort it out and make choices.
I really want the Laguna combo. It’s hard to know if its hype and I am not sure the wife will figure out I just sold her car….

[Chip Lindley]

I 2nd the Exaktor! But add a Modulus scoring attachment too!

You never said if you already own a decent cabinet saw. If so, the Exaktor is a logical extension of the capabilities of that machine. The additon of a Modulus scoring attachment minimizes chipout, which the Festool may or may not do. The Exaktor/Modulus makes a TS into a very usable *slider*

Kill 2 birdz with 1 stone!

[james bell]

I have a Festool TS55 and love it, but it took me over a year to determine there wasn't anything comparable on the market at that time. My complaint against Festool, which I have written many woodworking pubs about, is there arrogance.

Two easy items to change would be the nomenclature on their guide rails, why have them in metric. And what really gripes me is the depth gauge is metric. What do I set if for when cutting a 45 degree angle in 1/2" or 3/4" wood?

The 20mm arbor is also an issue - if I have a problem with a blade, I need to order another one from them, can't just pick it up locally.

Although they make fine products, I won't purchase another one (unless the only thing on the market) until they get off their high horse and modify their products for the US market. (Talk to any Festool rep at trade shows, and they understand this well, but can't convince the germans back home!)

[frank shic]

chip is right about the modulus scoring attachment - kiss that irritating chipping that you would see on melamine goodbye. it's not cheap, though...

[Jim Becker]

Laguna has pushed marketing for their Euro 5 combo machine, along with at least 3 other companies.

Be sure you check out all your brand options before plunking down your money... ;) ...and pay attention to customer service comments from owners.

[Wade Lippman]

Two easy items to change would be the nomenclature on their guide rails, why have them in metric. And what really gripes me is the depth gauge is metric. What do I set if for when cutting a 45 degree angle in 1/2" or 3/4" wood?

The 20mm arbor is also an issue - if I have a problem with a blade, I need to order another one from them, can't just pick it up locally.

What really gripes me is that we don't have the same system as the entire rest of the world.
Can you imagine being metric?
You could divide measurements in half effortlessly!
You would only need one set of wrenches!
Our exports would sell better!
Imports would be cheaper!
Yes, and Festools would be easier to use.

We don't do it why?

[frank shic]

you can do it, it's just hard sometimes to visualize 66mm vs 2 3/8"!

[C Scott McDonald]

Hi Jim,

What does a Mini max like that cost just out of curiousity?

Scott

[Jim Becker]

Scott, I'm not familiar with the Laguna and only have mild awareness of the "little" C26 (http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_bs.tpl&product_id=43&category_id=2&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=35) from Minimax. But it's currently on sale for $4895.

[Fidel Fernandez]

Have you considered the Ezze-feed? It is a system that you attach to your table saw very easy and you can detach easily too.

I am not using that per se but I made my own. I have a Festool MFT table (you can use any table even your workbench) and I also bought those sealed ball bearings same as the Ezze-feed use ( http://www.ezee-feed.com/ ) .

I cut wood to screw the bearings. The wood height + the table must be the same height of the table saw. Then I hold the wood plus the bearing on the MFT and I can slide the plywood sheet with no effort.

My accuracy has tenfold and it is a lot safer and you don't need assistance to do this. Before I had helped from my wife to hold the sheet to initiate the cut.

Give it a try, is cheap (around $60 if you do it yourself) and it works great.

[Rod Sheridan]

What really gripes me is that we don't have the same system as the entire rest of the world.
Can you imagine being metric?
You could divide measurements in half effortlessly!
You would only need one set of wrenches!
Our exports would sell better!
Imports would be cheaper!
Yes, and Festools would be easier to use.

We don't do it why?

Hi Wade, please don't let the US go metric, it would ruin my standard joke about the imperial system!:eek:

Regards, Rod.

[Paul Johnstone]

Another suggestion.. If you already have a table saw, the Jessem Master Slide. I don't know if the sale is still on, but Rockwell ? had them for 399 (i think, this is off memory).

It has a crosscut ability somewhere around 32-36".. again, I do not remember exactly.

It takes up very little space. It is very accurate and well built.

The only time I have to pull out the circular saw and straight edge is the rare occasion that I am crosscutting a full sheet. That doesn't happen very often. It's pretty easy to plan the "rip" cuts of a plywood sheet to make that 4' wide crosscut unnecessary.

If you are taking your hobby to the next level, I don't think a Festool saw as your primary cutting system is a great idea... Ideally, you'd still want to keep a tablesaw around.

[Loren Hedahl]

I went the Festool direction. I did get along without a table saw for a time, but ran into trouble cutting thin strips for plywood edging. The local Lowes gave me a price I couldn't refuse on DeWalt 745 bench saw display model.

I'm happy with the TS 55, MFT 1080, large vac and rotex sander. My alternative was to build a larger shop. Considering construction costs, yearly property taxes, heating, lighting, maintenance, etc. I figure I got a bargain.

Also since I do quite a bit of on-site work, my Festool equipment travels just fine allowing me to use the same equipment on-site as I do in my shop.

On the other hand, if I were trying to compete with the local Home Depot on making kitchen cabinets, the Festool direction wouldn't be the way to go for that amount of production.

[Dan Clark]

Thanks for good replies.
Right now, it seems that hobby woodworking will move into the next level with smaller footprints. I am trying to figure how it will play out without making purchases for something outdated in a few years for my 15x15 shop.

Festool is now almost mainstreamed. Knock offs keep arriving within the home market.

Saw Stop just released a low end, bringing extreme safety to the garage.

The jointer/planer popularity has stepped up due to the cost of the spiral cutters for two separate tools.

Laguna has pushed marketing for their Euro 5 combo machine, along with at least 3 other companies.

Everything to me seems to point toward the multi-function solutions. It’s just a challenge to try and sort it out and make choices.
I really want the Laguna combo. It’s hard to know if its hype and I am not sure the wife will figure out I just sold her car….
John,

I have Festool tools and they fit my needs VERY well because they are high quality, portable, easily storable, and are designed to work in a small shop. That said, I respect everyone's right to choose a tools that fits their needs and environment. However...

Cabinets? While several folks seem focused on that fact that you will be building cabinets, I can't find that ANYWHERE in your posts. Do you have any interest in building cabinets?

Ripping ply on a tablesaw? Several folks have pointed out the benefits of using a slider to break down ply. I have just one itsy, bitsy, teeny question - how the heck do you rip an 8' sheet of ply in a 15X15 ft workshop?!?

Unless I'm missing something, you're going to need at LEAST 18 feet to rip an 8' ply. That's a minimum of 8' in front and behind for the board, and maybe 2' for you to push the board.

Of course, you could have a couple of friends drag the table saw across the floor while you hold the ply! Hmmm... Nah, that wouldn't work. The medical bills for their wrenched backs would be pretty steep! :D

Ripping ply with a TS55? You have multiple options. First you find a nice clear space of say 5'X10'. Then you can throw down some pink foam insulation, drop the ply on top, lay down your guide rail, then cut. Or, you can build a simple fold-away cutting/assembly table. Anywhere from about 18" to 24" seems to be the preferred height. Drop the ply on top and cut. Fold it away against a wall when done.

How clean are cuts with a Festool saw? The guide rails have a splinter guard. They do a nice job of giving splinter free cuts on the guide rail side. For the outboard side, the TS55 and TS75 have a replaceable splinterguard. This combo gives great cuts.

If you go with a Festool saw, buy a 5-pack of saw splinter guards and mark the part number of each blade and toss them in the systainer. When you change a blade, change the splinter guard (takes about 30 seconds). If you have the blade sharpened, toss the old splinter guard and use a new one. At about $3 each, it's cheap insurance.

Festool TS saw as fast as a table saw? Probably not. Definitely not, in a production environment. OTOH...

If you cut a sheet of ply every now and then, it's probably not an issue. I've used my TS55 and MFT to cut everything from ply to hardwood to common 2X4's. And I used the "dinky" TS55 to rip 1-3/4" X 18' Microllam beams in my 22' garage. I used the MFT plus a couple of portable work tables with small pink foam sheets on top.

Dust Collection? You didn't mention that. Unless you have a DC now, you will definitely need it with a table saw. If you go the Festool route, you'll probably want something like the CT22. Your lungs and your wife will thank you for it.

Kapex? The Kapex is a nice Miter Saw, but... Do you have a solid need for a miter saw? If not, you might want to hold off on that. The MFT plus a Festool TS will do much of what a Miter Saw will do, just not as fast.

I bought my current Bosch 4410L before I got my Festool saw. I While I've used the miter saw some, I got similar results with my TS55 and almost no dust. (The Bosch dust collection is fair at best.) But most of my cuts were square cuts. If I was running trim and did lots of miters, then I'd probably choose the miter saw.

Going back to the table saw...
For volume production work, a good table-saw may be a requirement. For low volume, hobby work a Festool guided saw plus rails do quite nicely. And you have space left over for some other nice tools - like a decent bandsaw or drill press.

Good luck with your decision.

Regards,

Dan.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Dan, you are correct, a slider takes a bunch of room, and 18' sounds close for an 8' table. I have my 8' table saw in a 22x24 garage, and the best solution for me was to angle the machine. Actually really makes a good flow in the shop.

One of the big advantages of a slider saw is speed. You'd have to be pretty quick with the setup of a Festool system to compete with a set and run slider. How fast will each system dimension say 18 identical shelf parts for that built in cabinet you might be working on?

Nothing against Festool, wish I had a few of their tools, but there are some distinct advantages to the slider as well.

[Dan Clark]

Steve,

I don't think that anyone (including me) would argue that a table saw, especially a slider, would be much faster for making repetitive, production volume cuts. In many cases, a table saw has definite advantages, including speed. But speed is not the issue; shop size is the issue!

John (the OP) is hobbyist with a 15' X 15' shop. IMO, the underlying, fundamental question that John is asking is NOT "Festool" versus "table saw". It is which "system" is best for a very small shop - an American "big iron" system or a European "Euro-Shop" system?

In the past, Americans and Europeans lived in different conditions. Americans typically had much more living space available. A smaller central city is surrounded by expansive suburbs. Many Americans have a double or triple garage, or the space to build a separate shop. And they have the space to park their car in the driveway or on the street. These conditions are no longer true for some Americans (aka "me"), but are still true for most of us.

OTOH Europeans typically live in a packed central city with much smaller surrounding suburbs that quickly change to open country side. Many Europeans don't own a car (and don't have a garage), or they have a small single-car garage that is the only place to park the car. Most European hobbyists and many professionals work out of a very small shop. I've seen posts by one European fellow whose "workshop" is a 6'X8' space.

These differences in living and working conditions drive the design of the tools. While European tool manufacturers make high-quality "big iron", most of that is for production work and is not aimed hobbyists. Europeans need tools that can work well in a small space. That's why their tools are designed the way they are.

I'd forgotten that I touched on this subject in this thread a couple of years ago: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=43869. In that thread, I referenced this 2005 article about the "Euro Shop" concept: http://www.festool.com.au/images/Australia/NewProducts/Workbench2005.pdf. A major theme of the article is making the most out of a small workshop space.

The key to all of this is what works best in a given situation. Have a large workshop of say 22 X 24 (the size of many 2-car garages)? Big iron may be the best solution.

Have a small space of say 15 X 15 or smaller? The theoretical benefits of big iron are NOT relevant if you can't fit it into your space! A circular saw and guide rail is MUCH faster than a table saw if you are working in a 10' X 10' room with a single 30" door. (Ya can't get a slider into that space! :D) IMO, a EuroShop is the best solution here.

Have a small, single car garage? You can build a small "big iron" workshop OR park your car in that space. OTOH, you can have a portable "EuroShop" workshop AND park your car. Again, EuroShop wins in this situation.

What is important here is what works best for each of us. Steve, you have the space and apparently don't need portability, so big iron is the right choice for you. I have some space (double-car garage), but I need to park two cars there and portability is also important; a EuroShop is the right choice for me. John has limited space, so (IMO) a EuroShop is the best choice for him.

I'm not trying to be rude, but quite frankly, I don't care about what is the right choice for you or me. The only goal here should be to help John find the best solution for him.

Regards,

Dan.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve,

I don't think that anyone (including me) would argue that a table saw, especially a slider, would be much faster for making repetitive, production volume cuts. In many cases, a table saw has definite advantages, including speed. But speed is not the issue; shop size is the issue!

John (the OP) is hobbyist with a 15' X 15' shop. IMO, the underlying, fundamental question that John is asking is NOT "Festool" versus "table saw". It is which "system" is best for a very small shop - an American "big iron" system or a European "Euro-Shop" system?

In the past, Americans and Europeans lived in different conditions. Americans typically had much more living space available. A smaller central city is surrounded by expansive suburbs. Many Americans have a double or triple garage, or the space to build a separate shop. And they have the space to park their car in the driveway or on the street. These conditions are no longer true for some Americans (aka "me"), but are still true for most of us.

OTOH Europeans typically live in a packed central city with much smaller surrounding suburbs that quickly change to open country side. Many Europeans don't own a car (and don't have a garage), or they have a small single-car garage that is the only place to park the car. Most European hobbyists and many professionals work out of a very small shop. I've seen posts by one European fellow whose "workshop" is a 6'X8' space.

These differences in living and working conditions drive the design of the tools. While European tool manufacturers make high-quality "big iron", most of that is for production work and is not aimed hobbyists. Europeans need tools that can work well in a small space. That's why their tools are designed the way they are.

I'd forgotten that I touched on this subject in this thread a couple of years ago: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=43869. In that thread, I referenced this 2005 article about the "Euro Shop" concept: http://www.festool.com.au/images/Australia/NewProducts/Workbench2005.pdf. A major theme of the article is making the most out of a small workshop space.

The key to all of this is what works best in a given situation. Have a large workshop of say 22 X 24 (the size of many 2-car garages)? Big iron may be the best solution.

Have a small space of say 15 X 15 or smaller? The theoretical benefits of big iron are NOT relevant if you can't fit it into your space! A circular saw and guide rail is MUCH faster than a table saw if you are working in a 10' X 10' room with a single 30" door. (Ya can't get a slider into that space! :D) IMO, a EuroShop is the best solution here.

Have a small, single car garage? You can build a small "big iron" workshop OR park your car in that space. OTOH, you can have a portable "EuroShop" workshop AND park your car. Again, EuroShop wins in this situation.

What is important here is what works best for each of us. Steve, you have the space and apparently don't need portability, so big iron is the right choice for you. I have some space (double-car garage), but I need to park two cars there and portability is also important; a EuroShop is the right choice for me. John has limited space, so (IMO) a EuroShop is the best choice for him.

I'm not trying to be rude, but quite frankly, I don't care about what is the right choice for you or me. The only goal here should be to help John find the best solution for him.

Regards,

Dan.


No offense taken Dan,

My point was that if you have the dedicated space to put a slider saw, just because it takes a given amount of room for movement, doesn't nessecarily mean that it won't fit into a smaller space. Everything in this decision depends on the OP's work, which I'm not sure has been posted. You also do not have to buy a 8' table for a sliding saw. The table can be locked solid, and a standard rip fence used. This would still require twice the length of the work piece, plus the room to stand however.

Of course there are tradeoffs with each setup. The OP will have to decide which compromises to take.

To be right upfront with my bias, I am an unabashed Euro slider fan. These are great tools IMHO, but it seems that at times they get a bad rap, I think mostly because there are not that many of them out there. I'd guess maybe 10% of the members here have tried a Euro slider?

When I was shopping for a new saw, I asked a lot of questions here, and in retrospect, I got some great info, but there was also a lot of wrong hypothesis that floated around. I believe that Euro style sliding saws and combo machines have a useful place in SOME American woodworkers shops, and that if I can at times offer something I have learned about these machines, it may be useful to someone asking the questions I did a year ago.

I do not own, nor have I used a Festool system though, so your views of it are more relevant there. As you said, if we can give John some good info to make his own choices, we are doing our part. I personally have no idea what is the right choice for John, but as the title of this thread is "Festool vs. sliding table saw", he is considering both approaches.

[Travis Porter]

I have both a slider with 8' 6" rip and the Festool. Both do a good job, but as noted, the slider takes a lot of space. The length aspect has been mentioned, but do not forget the space needed for the outrigger assembly. If I was in a small shop, I would opt for a cabinet saw and a Festool MFT and TSxx saw with a rail. Breaking down sheet goods on a cabinet saw is realistic, but can be painful. JMTCW.

[Greg Mann]

I think a fellow by th ename of Steve Jones has a great thread on the FOG on cutting down sheet goods (if that is what the OP is most concerned about) on a saw table that is essentially 4x8 MDF. He claims it is far faster than any table saw set-up and it does make some sense. When the plywood stays still and the saw moves you need half the space.

I love the big sliders but you not only need room for the infeed/outfeed issues, you also need some room to stage the sheets for getting them on the saw. If you have that kind of room and budget I say, go for it. If not, you can do great and fast work with a Festool saw and rail if you follow the lead of some of the creative folks who have shown how it can be done, and for a lot less money.