Who needs a generator when you have a...

[Jim Becker]

...Prius.

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/prius-its-not-just-a-car-its-an-emergency-generator/?hp

Interesting. Very interesting. Hmm...gonna have to check out "emergency inverters". Between our two hybrids, we should be set pretty well! LOL

[Tom Godley]

That is interesting!

I wonder what the "grid" will look like in 100 years. So much depends on our ability to "store" the power.

While still expensive "whole house' back up power provided by batteries is becoming a real alternative to generators.


To think that we some day may be able to have our car parked in the garage automatically provide power to the house!

But, then I think of all the cars that have no way to connect an IPod -- And the almost complete lack of workable cross platform integration of cell phones -- And I think we may be a ways off!

[Kevin Arceneaux]

Rather have the dog.

[Peter Stahl]

Rather have the dog.

?????????????

[Pete Simmons]

"We’re going to have to have a smart grid if we want to use plug-in hybrids — then we want to be able to have ordinary consumers sell back the electricity that’s generated.”

-----------------------

Using currently available technology I would be very surprised if any individual can generate enough power for themselfs at a reasonable cost.

Anyone who thinks they can generate electrical power to sell back to a utility for anywhere near $0.07 - $0.18 per KWatt/hr is starting down a long expensive winding road (even more expensive than getting into woodworking) to find out they have a slim chance of reaching their energy goals.

If you would like to read my essays on energy use and storage do a search on FuelFrenzy

[Ben Rafael]

The only questions I have:
Are there any problems running an automobile engine 30 minutes at a time and not having the vehicle moving? Don't cars rely on movement to help cool the engine? Possibly other issues?

[Kevin Arceneaux]

?????????????

I would rather have the dog instead of the car. Read the caption under the picture.

[Jim Becker]

Are there any problems running an automobile engine 30 minutes at a time and not having the vehicle moving? Don't cars rely on movement to help cool the engine? Possibly other issues?

No, it's not an issue...these are water cooled engines and like most vehicles, there is an on-demand fan to provide air-flow if it were needed. The Toyota hybrids actually shut the gas engine off quite frequently in normal use, including in standing traffic. Also the reference in the article is more that the engine only ran about every 30 minutes to recharge the batteries when the level of charge dropped to a certain threshold. Again, this is normal operation for Toyota hybrids. With nothing turned on in the vehicle that uses electric, I can see the 30 minute mark being real, depending on the draw of the inverter. My experience in normal operation...sitting in a parking lot/traffic jam...is about 15 minutes max before the engine turns on to re-charge. That's with A/C and the sound system going, etc.
----

Folks, I received a PM from an SMC member that raised all kinds of (good) questions about hybrids as well as pointing out that this is (obviously) not a really efficient way to generate electricity. Very true. The whole point of the article and this thread is just to acknowledge a very creative way that someone coped with an immediate power emergency. My own comment about running out for some inverters for our hybrids was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, although it may not have been perceived that way. I would never consider this idea to be a real, long-term solution to dealing with a power outage, but I do respect the clever nature of the solution. And honestly, while the article highlighted the vehicle as a hybrid relative to fuel economy, the "solution" would work with any vehicle that could power the inverter to keep the freezer frozen and the fridge frigid. (They would likely just use more fossil fuel over the same period)

That all said, I'd still love to have a big, honkin' natural gas fired whole-house generator for standby power. But I'd have to sacrifice the tool and horsie fund to, well...fund it. ;)

[Leo Graywacz]

I've been doing this for years now. I have a 3000 Watt inverter that I power my tools off of in my truck. Every winter we are bound to lose power for a few hours. I just power the necessities, fridge, furnace and a couple of lights. I have a setup that I plug into and have rigged the circuit breaker panel with disconnects. I can run the house for a few hours on the single AGM 12v battery that I have, after that I start he truck and let it idle. No, it is not efficient, but it is better than having no power. When I see some lights come on at one of my neighbors I know the outage is over. I disconnect and flip the main back on. Works for me.

http://fototime.com/DD9AAA7F73CB92B/orig.jpg

[Randal Stevenson]

But, then I think of all the cars that have no way to connect an IPod -- And the almost complete lack of workable cross platform integration of cell phones -- And I think we may be a ways off!


There is a LOT that could/(should IMHO) be standardized. The reason things aren't, they want to lock you in to their stuff. Things like laptop batteries and chargers (should be about 4 designs), mp3/ogg player connections for charging (notice the headphone connectors are standard).
There is a lot more possible, then is/has been done.

[Joe Chritz]

Ford motor company did lots of research (do to being the #1 seller of police vehicles) on idle time and the wear factors involved. The determined that 1 hour of idle time is equal to about 33 miles driven under normal conditions.

All the new squads came with both odometers and hour meters.

Because of the electronics and (in winter) ice freezing on windows we have had cars run non-stop for weeks on end (switching from shift to shift, etc.)

Joe

[Ben Rafael]

Ford motor company did lots of research (do to being the #1 seller of police vehicles) on idle time and the wear factors involved. The determined that 1 hour of idle time is equal to about 33 miles driven under normal conditions.


Joe

What's a normal condition?
Normal in Manhattan is not the same as normal in a rural area.

[Karl Brogger]

I can't believe that an engine turning 1200 rpm under essentially no load will wear faster than one operating in the middle of its rpm range under load.

Last year I got yelled at in New York state about leaving my pickup idling for ten minutes, it wasn't cold but there wasn't any reason to shut it off, just to start it again. That person would get a kick out of coming to a small rural town Minnesota bar in the middle of winter when its cold. Half the vehicle are diesel pickups, and they're running. I've left mine idling for 8 hours at job sites just because I know it won't start again if left unplugged in -25*F weather.

[Jason Roehl]

There's almost no reason to leave newer vehicles running. You start saving fuel after about a minute (or less) of shut-off vs. idling. A friend of mine accidentally left his ~2000 Nissan Pathfinder pickup idling overnight, and used about 1/8 tank of gas--but he still used it. The start-up and run characteristics of new, heavily computerized vehicles are excellent, including diesels. The only thing you have to watch with a diesel is gelling below about -20ºF, and that is mainly off-road diesel. Taxed diesel bought in a cold-climate market generally has anti-gel properties. As long as your battery is good, it should be able to sufficiently run the grid heater/glow plugs and start the diesel engine (wait to start). Plus, the injection is direct, computer-controlled multi-event and at a much, much higher pressure which further aids cold starts. (Ex-BIL was a ME at Cummins).

[Jim Becker]

But, then I think of all the cars that have no way to connect an IPod

Ah...this one is solvable for many vehicles. I just added this to my Highlander which didn't have an auxiliary input.

http://www.coastaletech.com/ "Lockpick"

[Ben Rafael]

Ah...this one is solvable for many vehicles. I just added this to my Highlander which didn't have an auxiliary input.

http://www.coastaletech.com/ "Lockpick"

Adding aux to almost any car is no big deal. It's actually easier to do with older cars.

[Joe Chritz]

Ben,

I believe the normal driving Ford was shooting for was average driving throughout a range of conditions. I wasn't involved, just been able to read some inside testing on police cars.

"Normal" driving and police use aren't even in the same ballpark. A congested area would obviously decrease the number of miles, that is why town driving is harder on vehicle engines (as well as everything else) since there is lots of idle time at lights, signs and the like.

Joe

[Gary Click]

Jim,

This post seems interesting, I drive a 2008 Highlander Hybrid and my wife drives a 2008 Camry Hybrid. I thought that the 12VDC circuits were independent of the Traction Battery and ran off the conventional "cranking battery". In my Highlander the nominal Traction Battery voltage is 340VDC.

[Jim Becker]

May be true, Gary...I don't know the details of the "innards"!

[Randal Stevenson]

I can't believe that an engine turning 1200 rpm under essentially no load will wear faster than one operating in the middle of its rpm range under load.



The big issue and the reason for the hour meter, is lubrication. You could have a vehicle that you drive less then 100 miles, and it idles the rest of the time. Let the oil wait to get changed at the recommended mileage, and see how long it lasts.

[Mike Henderson]

Jim,

This post seems interesting, I drive a 2008 Highlander Hybrid and my wife drives a 2008 Camry Hybrid. I thought that the 12VDC circuits were independent of the Traction Battery and ran off the conventional "cranking battery". In my Highlander the nominal Traction Battery voltage is 340VDC.
This, plus the posting earlier by Jason that an idling engine doesn't use much fuel, would indicate that any car, not just a hybrid, could be used for emergency backup with a 12V to 120V inverter connected directly across the battery. The engine would drive the alternator to keep the battery charged. The only issue would be to make sure you vented the exhaust and didn't exceed the capacity of the alternator.

Mike

[Jim Becker]

True, Mike, any vehicle could be used for this emergency application if necessary. The advantage with the hybrid is generally the fact that the engine doesn't run unless there is charging that needs done...it turns on and off automagically in that respect. Few, if any, "regular" vehicles have that feature.

[Ben Rafael]

True, Mike, any vehicle could be used for this emergency application if necessary. The advantage with the hybrid is generally the fact that the engine doesn't run unless there is charging that needs done...it turns on and off automagically in that respect. Few, if any, "regular" vehicles have that feature.

The big advantage is that a hybrid has alot more than 1 battery.
I guess you could say a hybrid is a "self propelled generator".

[Sonny Edmonds]

OK, I call -----.
This dweeb ran ALL this for 3 days on just 5 gallons of gas?

Quote:
"ran his refrigerator, freezer, TV, woodstove fan and several lights through his Prius, for three days, on roughly five gallons of gas.”

Bull ---! It takes energy to make energy. Plus, there is the parasitic load of the inverter itself given off as heat.
And, like mentioned, the Prius battery is high voltage, not 12 volts.
Add up the wattage needed for that supposed list of things run.
Then take your Prius and let it run for 3 days and see how much gas it uses just sitting there. I double dog dare Ya!
It's going to be more than 5 gallons, Guaranteed!

Kate doesn't even know that woodstove is spelled: wood stove. Love the literacy of these pin heads.
And the New York Times? Are you out of your mind? Alquetta is more reliable than that rag.

You guys would swallow anything. :(
Go run your car for three days, then report back on gas usage. :confused:
Such Bull ---!

[Sonny Edmonds]

I have a 4000 watt generator on my RV that has a 50 gallon gas tank (full) to feed it.
IF I ever needed it, it's there.
Onan sez it uses .5 gallons at half load per hour. So would it run for 100 hours on a tank of fuel? Not likely.
Never have needed it, hope I never do. But it's there. It's our Earthquake survival pack.
Big pack! :eek:

[Jim Becker]

What you're missing, Sonny, is that the Hybrid vehicle's gas engine only runs sporadically when the battery (the 12v battery in this case, but it also applies to the traction batteries) indicates that it needs charged. That's a major difference from your Onan generator on your RV which must be consuming fuel 100% of the time it's providing electricity. The computer circuitry in the Hybrid constantly monitors the state of the electricals including charge levels and in turn, asks for the gas engine only when the programming indicates it's needed.

I cannot comment on the veracity of the length of time and fuel consumption that the gentleman in the article actually enjoyed, but have to believe that the publisher went to at least some level of verification. Regardless, use of the hybrid vehicle for this particular emergency use would indeed use less gasoline than a non-hybrid vehicle. (or regular generator)

[Sonny Edmonds]

Still don't belive it, Jim.
And you are correct, Bulls don't wear shirts. (Except the team, I suppose)
I work in the electrical utillity business, so I know what works and what don't.
And I'll leave it at that. :p