Subpanel Question

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I have a subpanel in my basement shop which serves my shop and other areas of my home. All 8 one inch spaces in the panel are used as shown in the pic below.

I want to add another 240V circuit (2 pole) to support a tentative machine that needs a 30A circuit. Is my only remedy to change out the panel for a 12 space panel?

-Jeff :)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/Beff2/Subpanel.jpg

[Charles P. Wright]

I have a subpanel in my basement shop which serves my shop and other areas of my home. All 8 one inch spaces in the panel are used as shown in the pic below.

I want to add another 240V circuit (2 pole) to support a tentative machine that needs a 30A circuit. Is my only remedy to change out the panel for a 12 space panel?

-Jeff :)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/Beff2/Subpanel.jpg

You might be able to find a quad breaker for your panel.

For a type MP panel you would want something like this:
http://www.circuitbreakerservice.com/Murray/MP220220_product_info.html
That would let you combine one of your two pole 20 breakers and 2 of the single pole 20s into two spaces.

[David G Baker]

Put a higher amperage breaker in position #1 and #2 and put in another sub panel with more breaker positions and run a cable to the new box from the new higher amperage breaker. I have several in my out buildings set up this way.

[Rick Lucrezi]

Jeffrey, first of all I am not a licenced electrician, (but I play one on tv). Seriously though, I can help you out. I need to know what type of circuit breakers you have. Most common are the "Siemens" also the "Square D". They both are confiqured the way you described. I see by your diagram that the number 8 circuit is a split circuit. The newer panels for the last couple years alow for a split in the bottom two only. Older panels will ecept split cicuits in any position. To do what you want you will need to free up slot 5 and 6 and put them on a 20 amp split in the number 7 slot. Let me know what you have and I can get you more specific information and walk you through it.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I have a Square D subpanel that uses QO breakers. The panel is fed via 6/3 wire, with separate ground, off a 50amp breaker at the main.

I found a quad breaker as suggested. I did not know these exist. I see how it stradles the lugs to make it work. Seems too good to be true. :)

I believe Square D owns Homeline. But, is Homeline breakers compatible with Square D panels? Also, is there anything I should check on the subpanel that prohibits me from using a quad breaker even though it physically fits?

-Jeff :)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/Beff2/QuadBreaker.jpg

[Rick Lucrezi]

That wont work if what you are adding requires a 30 amp breaker. You dont want to run a 30 amp quad for the 20 amp 110 circuits so its back to the split 20amp and a 30 amp for the addition. Sorry. You know that you would not be able to run all the equipment at the same time right?

[Joe Mioux]

Jeffrey, first of all I am not a licenced electrician, (but I play one on tv). Seriously though, I can help you out. I need to know what type of circuit breakers you have. Most common are the "Siemens" also the "Square D". They both are confiqured the way you described. I see by your diagram that the number 8 circuit is a split circuit. The newer panels for the last couple years alow for a split in the bottom two only. Older panels will ecept split cicuits in any position. To do what you want you will need to free up slot 5 and 6 and put them on a 20 amp split in the number 7 slot. Let me know what you have and I can get you more specific information and walk you through it.

If you move 5 and 6 to a split breaker and put that 7, what happens to the original 7 breaker/circuit?

[Bill Brady]

Square D does make homeline but they are not usable in the QO panel, QO is their top of the line model. You still may be able to get a QO breaker like the one you are showing, this type of breaker is used a lot in mobil and modular homes so they can cut down on the space a panel takes up. To see if you can add more single space quad breakers, use the one you have and see if it will snap into the other spaces. One thing you need to watch with quad breakers is if you have a multiwire circuit, 2 hot wires sharing a neitral wire the hots need to be on adjacent spaces not on the same quad. If they are on the same quad it will cause an overload of the neutral.

[Mike Cutler]

Jeff

That Quad breaker is very close to what you are looking for. I have a quad breaker that has a 30 amp/240 breaker in the middle, and two 20 amp 120 breakers on the outside. it is the breaker that feed my laundry service. Unfortunately I use Murray breakers, but I'm certain Square D has the same thing.

Copy all of the info off of the front panel door you can, and then go to a real electric supply house, not Home Depot. The breaker you are looking for is fairly common,and was called an "appliance breaker" by the parts guy that sold me mine. I seem to remember that my breaker was fairly expensive 15 years ago.

It will occupy slots 6&7 on your mimic. I can't tell you that it's code legal, or anything else.

This may be the breaker you are looking for. I can't tell from the info you've supplied. That front panel should tell you.

http://www.onestopshopcatalog.com/homt2020230cp.html

[Rollie Meyers]

I have a Square D subpanel that uses QO breakers. The panel is fed via 6/3 wire, with separate ground, off a 50amp breaker at the main.

I found a quad breaker as suggested. I did not know these exist. I see how it stradles the lugs to make it work. Seems too good to be true. :)

I believe Square D owns Homeline. But, is Homeline breakers compatible with Square D panels? Also, is there anything I should check on the subpanel that prohibits me from using a quad breaker even though it physically fits?

-Jeff :)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/Beff2/QuadBreaker.jpg

One cannot use a circuit breaker just because it "fits" it needs to be UL classified to be used in a panel,there are a number of makes that will physically fit each other unless the manuf. has the paperwork that they have been tested & "classified" to fit other manuf. panels they cannot be used, Cutler-Hammer & Siemens both have made a classified breaker for Square D QO loadcenters & C-H BR frame breakers has been UL classified for other manuf. loadcenters you would have to research for specific ones.

[Rick Lucrezi]

If you move 5 and 6 to a split breaker and put that 7, what happens to the original 7 breaker/circuit?


I stand corrected. I went back and locoked at the diagram a couple times too. Measure twice cut once. Sorry. Based on that then if you can find a quad with a 30 in the middle and 20 on the sides then you would be ok.
If I understand Bill right, he is talking about when a 12/3 is used for 110 circuits, (a black and a red a white and a ground), they both share the same neutral wire. It is important to place the red and black on the correct side of the hots.This is assuming you have this in your panel. Look for a romex that has both a red and black wire going to the 110 breakers.
The panel has 2 hot legs coming in and they each have their own (buss) I think its called, which delivers power to the breakers.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Lots of good advice. Thanks.

If I get a 20/20/20 quad breaker, I can combine the existing 240V/20A, 120V/20A, and 120V/20A, which currently take up 4 spaces, into 2 spaces. This would free up two spaces for a regular 240V/30A breaker for my new machine.

When I wired the subpanel 20 years ago, I did not use a shared neutral for any of the circuits. However, I will double check anyway. Good advice.

When I'm done, the 8 space panel will have 8 circuits vs. 7 right now. I'm assuming a 240V breaker is counted as a single circuit.

Overall demand on the panel continues to be under 50A in normal home and shop use. That is, the new 30A circuit is not additive, only the additional 10 amps above the existing 20A machine circuit, and I'm still way below 50A.

I will ensure that the new quad breaker is UL listed and proper for the panel.. I will buy at an electrical supplier vs home center as advised.

Once again, thanks!
-Jeff :)

Please note that breaker shown in diagram above are in different sequence than shown in the below pic....

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/Beff2/DSCF1354.jpg

[Rollie Meyers]

Lots of good advice. Thanks.

If I get a 20/20/20 quad breaker, I can combine the existing 240V/20A, 120V/20A, and 120V/20A, which currently take up 4 spaces, into 2 spaces. This would free up two spaces for a regular 240V/30A breaker for my new machine.

When I wired the subpanel 20 years ago, I did not use a shared neutral for any of the circuits. However, I will double check anyway. Good advice.

When I'm done, the 8 space panel will have 8 circuits vs. 7 right now. I'm assuming a 240V breaker is counted as a single circuit.

Overall demand on the panel continues to be under 50A in normal home and shop use. That is, the new 30A circuit is not additive, only the additional 10 amps above the existing 20A machine circuit, and I'm still way below 50A.

I will ensure that the new quad breaker is UL listed and proper for the panel.. I will buy at an electrical supplier vs home center as advised.

Once again, thanks!
-Jeff :)

Please note that breaker shown in diagram above are in different sequence than shown in the below pic....



Here is a link to SQ D's online catalog, http://ecatalog.squared.com/catalog/174/html/sections/07/17407010.html

You will need to assemble your own "quad" using 2 twins & a handle tie for the 2 center handles, as the only other ones they list are "non CTL" quads and a non CTL breaker is for loadcenters built prior to 1968. FYI: Non CTL breakers do not have the rejection tab which means they can be installed in any position in a newer panel violating the listing by allowing more breakers then intended.
Another note, it is a problem at the big box stores in finding the proper acessories for loadcenters, a proper supply house should have them if they are a SQ D distributor or try Grainger. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/productIndex.shtml?from=Search&newSrch=yes&operator=keywordSearch&search_type=model&action=Go%21&QueryString=QOTHT+&submit.x=29&submit.y=2

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Rollie...that handle tie is an interesting gizmo.

I found "Homeline" CTL quad breakers, but I could not find "Square D QO" CTL quad breakers. I'm guessing that Homeline is not compatible with QO as I thought.

This kind of pops my bubble.

The handle tie is interesting though. I guess it can be used with tandem breakers as long as the tie connects each half of two separates tandem breakers on different lugs. However, this seem a little spooky from a non-professional standpoint of inexperience.

This whole electrical issue arises from wishing to buy a combo jointer/planer with a helical or spiral cutterhead. The Grizzly J/P with a spiral cutterhead has a 25A motor versus the Jet J/P with straight knives and a 12.5A motor. I really like to have a spiral cutterhead, but the electrical issue is becoming a headache.

Oh well,
-Jeff :)

[Rollie Meyers]

Your problem is why I don't care for those panels, unless it's known that there will be few or no additions needed, a 12-16 space (full size breakers) is better. A QO frame breaker is 3/4" wide per pole and a HOM is 1" & the bus stabs are quite different so they are not interchangeable.

QO® panels are copper bussed & avail. in single & 3 phase.
HOM panels are aluminum bussed and are single phase only.