laminated plywood benchtop??

[jim hedgpeth]

I have been planning a workbench but have no planer or jointer to make one like Chris Schwartz version. I have thought about laminating 1"plywood on edge and covering it w/ hardboard for the top. The plywood is free from work, 32x29 roughly, w/ a 4" hole in the middle. I could rip them easily enough to make a top 3"-4" thick. That would save me from jointing all the pieces to glue them up, and would be plenty heavy. My biggest ?? is just how crazy would it be trying to flatten it w/ BU jointer plane? Since it would be covered w/ hardboard tearout wouldn't be a big issue, just getting all that end grain flattened. So is this a bad idea or could it work? Advice, comments?

[Alan DuBoff]

Jim,

Check this thread out (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=22081).

I agree that flattening that with a BU jointer would present itś challenges...;)

Also, just consider using a few layers of MDF with a layer of hardboard over the top. That works really well also. I have a bench in my garage that is similar, with plywood instead of the MDF, which works ok, but having a few layers of MDF under the hardboard would go a long way to being able to comfortably work with hand tools. It will had the heft and make the bench solid enough to do that. Another approach to consider, IMO.

There was a bench in ShopNotes #4 that had a bench constructed with a few MDF layers and harboard on top, if you have access to that issue.

[Greg Cole]

Doug "Scruffy" Shepard build a VERY nice one based off Sam Blasco's too.... lotsa good info from Doug too. Me thinks he'll chime in sooner n later....
Not sure I'd want to be the chap planing that kind of bench.

Greg

[Doug Shepard]

Doug "Scruffy" Shepard build a VERY nice one based off Sam Blasco's too.... lotsa good info from Doug too. Me thinks he'll chime in sooner n later....
Not sure I'd want to be the chap planing that kind of bench.

Greg

It's Mr. Scruffy to you:D
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=83328

[Luke Townsley]

There are a lot of ways to do this. You can actually make the top out of a single layer of plywood if you do a torsion box construction. Just make sure it weighs enough to do what you need.

Blum tools does this with their portable benches.

The main problem you will have is that an mdf or plywood top won't take well to flattening or renovation after they are damaged.

You might mull over the idea of making a semi-portable bench out of it and then later build something heavier if it is found wanting. You won't ever regret having two flat surfaces.

Also, you might think about making the top so it can be replaced when it gets beat up.

[Greg Cole]

It's Mr. Scruffy to you:D
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=83328

Since I shaved this morning for a company function tonight, duly noted to address you properly.:D;):rolleyes:
And +2 to the comment about having 2 flat spots, if you have room you will not regret the additional work surface for assembly, finishing etc etc etc.

[Derek Cohen]

I would avoid any use of MDF as it will swell if it gets wet (or even lives with moisture in the air). If using ply, try annd use exterior quality, again as a protection against swelling due to moisture.

This weekend I added tops to cabinets in my workshop make from 1" thick outdoor-rated ply edged in hardwood. It feels really solid. It is not intended as a bench, although it is rated to work on if needed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[jim hedgpeth]

Those links where good guys thanks. It makes me tempted to look around for someone w/ wide belt sander. I dont have a vacume bag though. (Might have to price one. ) I had thought about a tortionbox design but am not sure how well it would work w/ holdfasts. My budget is nill right now so I'm hoping to make it w/ things I can get free or already have. Hmmm, I was gona mention something else, dont recall now, short term memory = notes and I didnt make one.

[Jamie Cowan]

Last spring I decided to make a proper workbench, but ran across an age-old problem: How do you build a workbench without using a workbench? I made a temp bench out of studs and cabinet grade 1/2" birch plywood over 12" MDF for the top. Forstner bit dog holes, turned the dogs on the lathe. Screwed a vice on top, used another stud with clamps along the side to work bigger boards. That was six months ago, and I haven't taken the first step toward building the "proper" bench I set out to do. The temp bench works pretty well, for now. But then again, I'm a hack.

[Alan DuBoff]

I would avoid any use of MDF as it will swell if it gets wet (or even lives with moisture in the air).
Swell??? It will downright fall apart and deteriorate if exposed to water. That is one evil for MDF, most certain.

However, a bench with plywood is like working on mashed potatoes to me. A good compromise is to have MDF with a layer of ply, then a layer of hardboard. Sure, water could possibly get down into the MDF, but water can get on any piece of wood and rot it over time.

As an example, subfloor in a bathroom (in the U.S.) is typically done with plywood or fir, but a layer of MDF is inserted above that intentionally, so that when you lay floor over the top of it, the MDF will deteriorate rather than the sub floor if water leaks from the shower/tub. The homeowner will still have to replace the MDF should a leak occur, but that is said to save the sub floor. Eventually if the homeowner doesn't fix the leak and replace the MDF, the sub floor will rot as well, which is not as easy to replace under a shower, for instance...

Aside from sharpening, I don't have much water around any of my benches, and the water stones are in their own container. That one bench with MDF/ply does get spilled on, but it gets oil spilled from the mill and lathe that live on it now! ;) I just wipe it up off the hardboard, not a problem. The bench that was in ShopNotes #4 had MDF with a layer of 4/4 hardwood (I think it was maple or oak) on top. It looked like a decent design. I've seen others use MDF also, with success for their hand tool benches. It it much denser than plywood, even the Baltic birch. For my taste, plywood is like working on mashed potatoes, when your working hand tools.

EDIT: Doug Shepard's bench is ply on end, and it looks strong, but I am referring to ply being used as a top sheet.

[Doug Shepard]

Jim
I would have gotten back to this sooner but have been without a PC since last Saturday when my hard drive went belly-up. Back in business with a new laptop since the old one was getting a bit rough anyway. You can do a ply bench like Sams/mine without a vac press like I did, but it would sure make things easier. Also, if you go this route, dont skimp on cheap ply. I used a mix of 3/4" Baltic Birch and 1/2" paint grade birch ply that had the same number of plies as BB but in 4x8 sheets and not as good a quality as the BB. I wanted the 4x8 to be able to bridge the 5' length sections of the BB and alternated the 3/4" and 1/2". Prior to getting the 2 main sub-slabs glued together and before supporting the whole top on the leg panels, I had a few places where the plies delaminated on veneer layers due to the heavy weight of the panels. It filled fine with epoxy and hasn't been noticable or a problem, but in every case it was the cheaper 1/2" ply. I would have gotten 4x8 Apple Ply instead but couldn't find anybody around here that carried it. Going completely with BB ply is do-able too but you'd probably have to cut some tongue/grooves on the ends to make longer pieces as you stagger the lengths together.

[John Townsend]

Here's what I'm working on that's similar and it might give someone some insights:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1267030#post1267030

[Alan Schwabacher]

If you have a lot of free plywood, that is a very good reason to build from it. If you do rip into strips to laminate edge up, one way to clamp it up is to use threaded rods through holes to bolt the layers together. That's the way such a plywood top was made that is described in Scott Landis's "The Workbench Book" (pp. 96-98). That one was flattened with a wide belt sander. I'm not sure how much fun handpaning this much plywood edge would be.

But if you orient the plywood the other way, you don't need to cut it so small. By bricklaying pieces and making many layers without joints lining up, you can make a very solid top that should be plenty strong. Garrett Hack described in a recent Fine Woodworking lamination of a benchtop from 3 layers of stock laid up flat to the surface, though he used boards rather than plywood. He shows off the bench in video 33097 on the FWW website.

[bridger berdel]

my biggest bench serves as both outfeed from the tablesaw and as assembly table. the base is post and beam construction of fairly outsized timbers, but the top is a 3/4" layer of MDF covered with a 3/4" layer of melamine board. I trued up the frame before attaching the top, and attached the two layers together with screws from below.

it has plenty of mass (two full sheets of wood byproducts and glue) and the melamine surface with a coat of wax resists glue drips during assemblies and lets stuff slide out of the saw with minimum effort.

when the melamine gets too dinged up it's pretty cheap to replace. when I moved my shop a couple of years ago and knew that the bench would be disassembled and stored for a while I didn't bother bringing the top along- I just bought a new one when I set back up again.

now, this definitely isn't a neander bench- that sits in another part of the shop- but for lots of work areas it is a good cost effective and performance oriented solution.

[David Keller NC]

Those links where good guys thanks. It makes me tempted to look around for someone w/ wide belt sander. I dont have a vacume bag though. (Might have to price one. ) I had thought about a tortionbox design but am not sure how well it would work w/ holdfasts. My budget is nill right now so I'm hoping to make it w/ things I can get free or already have. Hmmm, I was gona mention something else, dont recall now, short term memory = notes and I didnt make one.

You can make a bench out of plywood strips ripped to a certain width (4" comes to mind), then standing them up and gluing the faces together. Essentially, this is what Chris Schwarz/Megan Fitzpatrick did for the bench on the cover of the latest Popular Woodworking. They were making it out of glue-lam, but that's basically the same thing.

But you will require a plane to be able to flatten it, or as you said you will need to find someone with a wide-belt sander. The difficulty with the sander approach is that no benchtop, unless it's made of granite, will stay flat. So unless you want to take it apart and take it back to get another $50-$100 sanding job, you will want to have a jointer plane on hand to re-flatten it every so often. It's easy to do this and very quick - about 20 minutes.

[Kevin Stricker]

I would not recommend using a plane on plywood endgrain. The glue will wreck your blade quite quickly. I learned this the hard way.

If you use allthread and biscuits you should end up with a pretty flat surface after the glue up. I would recommend using biscuits to join several sub assemblies of 4 sheets. Then drill these with a drillpress and glue up then use the allthread to clamp.

If you glue and screw on 4" X 4" plywood blocks with 1" spacing on the end row of a few sub assemblys, you will end up with several rows of bench dogs once your bench is glued up.

Renting a belt sander from the Deopt for the final flattening shouldn't cost too much.

Cecil Braden did an article on a plywood workbench in an older Fine Woodworking called "Rock Solid Plywood Bench" That has some great ideas for making your trestles and stretchers.

Good Luck

[jim hedgpeth]

This started almost a year ago. I have gave up on the whole plywood top idea as to much of a PITA. Originally I was interested because all the plywood was free. I have since decided to build a Schwarz style rubio when I get the chance. I am getting more and more into hand tools, and definitely need a good bench.

Hardware is not going to be cheap though. I like this leg vise.......... http://benchcrafted.com/vises-glide.htm
but I think I will just make one. I am sure they are great, but $$$ = owch.
I also like the Veritas twin screw, but again $$.

I have access to a cnc mill and lathe, so as long as I keep it fairly simple ;) I can make/modify some of my own parts. The only catch is I have to program/run the machines myself, which makes me somewhat nervous. He does check to make sure I wont kill a vise (:eek:$3000 ea.) before the program runs, but thats about it. So if I make a mistake I have to catch it before it goes too far. My friend wants me to learn it so I can work for him in the shop. I dont mind helping sometimes, but working for a friend is not usually a good idea. Unless you don't want to keep said friend.

Once everything else around here settles down (if its not too cold)I will get back out to the shop. Then it will be time to build a workbench.

Later everyone.
Jim