Plane Iron Experiment

[steve swantee]

I have a Type 4 Stanley No.8 which I aquired in the last month or so. Now this plane was not a pristine prelateral jewel when I got it. The japanning was all but gone, the knob/tote required refinishing, and there was a slight bend in the upper corner of the iron. Fortunately there were no signs of rust and all the proper vintage parts were present and accounted for. You may have remembered the thread "Latest Addition to the Fleet". Since all signs of its original finishes were erased by time, and subsequently replaced by yours truly, it does not really have much value as a collectible, other than it's value to me, so I am considering embarking on an experiment to install a Lie-Nielsen .175 (3/16) No.8 replacement iron in this little (big) beauty. I plan to open the mouth up to accomodate this monster iron, and use a LN chipbreaker screw to attach it to the original chipbreaker. As for iron adjustment, I am thinking of soldering tabs on either side of the adjuster slot so that the yoke will engage the chipbreaker to advance/retract the iron. If neatly done ,this should result in an awsome jointer. I know I could just use a LN replacement for a Stanley, but thats no fun. Has anyone attempted this? What were your results? I an still in the consideration stage, but am leaning heavily towards it. Any comments welcome.


Steve

[Jim Koepke]

You may find that the mouth does not need opening, depending on how thick a shaving you want to make.

jim

[Joel Goodman]

You also may have an issue with the depth adjuster not reaching the slot in the chipbreaker. I put an almost 1/8 iron (from TWW) in a T15 #7 and it's just about as much as I think will work. The mouth is tight for a jointer with the frog all the way back but I haven't opened it up yet. You might want to try a mockup with a piece of plywood to see whether the adjuster will function correctly. If you decide to go 1/8" LN may be able to make you a blade.

[Tristan Raymond]

Seems to me someone once said something about a LN yoke? Maybe you can just replace the yoke with a longer one that will engage the chip breaker with the thicker blade. I also recently bought a type 4 No. 8. I have a 7 with a Hock blade and chip breaker so I'm holding back on putting lots of money into it for now, but very interested in how it goes for you.

[Johnny Kleso]

If you buy the iron from LN ask for a No8 Yoke last time I bought them they where $5.00..

Your yoke may mork but what I fine is that you will have much more back lash in the depth adjuster wheel because the yoke end is tapered and the thinner part is in contact with the cap iron (chip breaker)....

[Barry Vabeach]

Steve, I have used the solder on tabs on either side of the cap iron slot a few times and it works fine. One tip is it is easiest to solder the tabs right on the edge of the slot or overhanging the slot slightly. Then once it has cooled down, use a small file to adjust the opening so it fits the adjusting yoke with the iron you have. It takes a couple of tries to file it to fit just right, but if you solder the tabs too far apart, that is much harder to correct. I used regular plumbing solder and a propane torch and it worked fine. BTW, I have used this technique with irons up to 3/8" on a Stanley transitional.

[Michael Sobik]

Hey Steve,

I just installed the thick LN iron and the LN improved chipbreaker in my No 7. I did have to open the mouth, but just a little bit. Maybe 0.010". My yoke barely engages the cap iron slot, but since it moves at an angle it only engages during part of the blade travel. I'm going to silver solder a piece of steel onto the end of the yoke, basically making it 3/16" longer. I think that should work fine. If not, I may call LN and try and buy a yoke from them.

[steve swantee]

Thank you all for your informative and open minded replies. I half expected someone to tell me I was nuts-maybe that's yet to come??. As a result of your encouraging replies I have decided to order the LN .175 iron and longer LN chipbreaker screw, which the nice man @ LN threw in for free, I might add. It will probably take up to 1&1/2 weeks for these to arrive at my doorstep, so lots of time for contemplation. Thank you for your reply in particular, Barry. I had read about soldering tabs on either side of the depth adj. slot somewhere, but can't recall where, so it's very encouraging to hear from someone that has actually done this and can confirm that it does indeed work. Any pictures of your modifications Barry? The throats on these earlier planes seem tight compared to later models, so I beleive I will have to open the mouth a bit. I will try to keep you all in the loop on my progress (once I finally have parts in hand). I missed the friday deadline for shipping to Canada, hence the extra wait time.

Steve

[Tony Zaffuto]

Whichever path you take, please post some pictures tracking the project!

Thanks,

T.Z.

[David Keller NC]

Steve - Sounds like you've already ordered a blade from Lie-Nielsen, but if you wanted to try a high-end blade in a Stanley Bailey-type plane, these sound intriguing:

http://www.galoot-tools.com/life/blades.html

My assumption is that it would not be necessary to re-engineer the yoke/slot interface with one of these irons.

To All: Has anyone purchased one of these irons and tried it out? I was considering it for a Bailey #6, but went with a Hock because I needed the plane and it was immediately available.

[steve swantee]

Wow, looks expensive David (premium iron $229), but I think It says they're only available for No4 & 5. I'll stick with the LN iron @ $55.00-and yes, I did already order the iron and c/b screw. I've been toying with the idea of shoehorning one of those thick buggers into a vintage stanley for some time. Sounds like a few of you are interested as well-I'll try to take some pics and keep you informed on my progress. Here's the plane in it's present condition.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=102274&thumb=1&d=1227980288 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=102274&d=1227980288)http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=102273&thumb=1&d=1227980288 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=102273&d=1227980288)

Steve

[David Keller NC]

Yeah - No doubt. I wouldn't buy one of their "premium" irons just to stick in a user Stanely. But it looks like you can get a very similar steel in a laminated blade for a lot less. I'd definitely be curious if anyone's bought one and what their impressions are, especially in light of the observations I've had about L-N irons. Many are good in my fleet, but some are not so good - they either chip with moderately hard woods, or the edge rolls over in even soft secondary woods, like poplar.

BTW- I think a #8 and a #5 are the same width, but I could be wrong on that point.

[steve swantee]

Hello David, a No5 iron is 2" wide and the No8 iron is 2 5/8" wide.

[Jim Koepke]

Wow, I like my Hock blades. They were set up to try before the buy.

For that kind of money, my expectations would be so high that it may not be possible to meet them.

jim

[steve swantee]

Hey Jim, after your earlier reply I took a few measurements and even with the frog all the way back I will have to open up the mouth.

Steve

[Barry Vabeach]

Steve, I hesitate to post the pics, the work is so flawless you might be intimidated, - but I will throw caution to the wind. On the right, I soldered 2 tabs, you can see they are a little off, then I filed through the slot to fit. On the left, I was smarter, I made a piece with a slot ( like a capital letter C ) that way I didn't have to worry about the two pieces moving when I soldered them. Also on the left, you can see I soldered another tab , and threaded it, so I didn't have to buy a longer screw. The plane iron on the left is the standard Stanley, and the one on the right is a much thicker O-1 that I used, just to give you some idea about the difference in thickness. I only used plumbing solder and that was plenty strong enough, silver solder is too much work for this because the forces are really mimimal. Looking at it again it looks like I went with the tabs slightly outside the slot on the cap iron, then filed to fit, so you might want to disregard my earlier advice to line up the tabs with the slot. The tabs I did were about the thickness of the plane blade which meant they were closer to the yoke than standard - the standard cap iron slot rests the thickness of the standard plane blade above the yoke, by making the tabs fit below the top of the thicker blade, you can end up closer to the yoke, hope that makes sense. Again, the photo shows the work of a true craftsman solderer, don't expect to be able to get the blobs of solder everywhere, get the tabs going at different angles, then letting it get so rusted it had to be sanded down and a shot of primer, on your first try. Barry
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/barryvabeach/capironmod.jpg

[steve swantee]

Hi Barry, thanks for the pics. The c/breaker on the right is what I had imagined that I would do, especially since the LN crew threw in a free long c/breaker screw for me. When the time comes I will post some pics of my progress. You have set the bar high but I shall do my best not to be discouraged ;). Thanks again for the pics Barry, I'm getting a pretty good idea of what my plan of attack will be once I get my parts.

Steve

[Barry Vabeach]

Good luck Steve, I am sure it will turn out great. Barry

[Michael Sobik]

I wanted to follow up with the results of my soldering experiment on the yoke. I don't know what the yoke is made of, but you can't seem to solder it. The solder melts, but just beads up and runs off. I think I'll try welding it instead.

[steve swantee]

Sorry to hear that Michael, I thought about trying this approach originally, but I had my doubts about soldering a piece onto the cast iron yoke, so I am going to try soldering a tab on each side of the slot on the c/breaker as Barry has done. I was at the hardware store yesterday and picked up a piece of steel bar stock to cut the tabs from, and hopefully over the holidays I will get a chance to try this approach out. Nice thing is that if it doesn't work out it's completely reversible. Good luck with your welding Michael, let us know how it turns out.

Happy Holidays
Steve

[Douglas Brummett]

Hello David, a No5 iron is 2" wide and the No8 iron is 2 5/8" wide.
You're nuts :)
Okay, maybe not nuts but definitely heading that direction. I don't entirely get adding the most massive blade possible to the jointer. It is still a mid-level plane, not a smoother. About the only reason I could see to put the effort in for is if you are trying to go straight from jointer to finish and skipping the smoother. Otherwise it seems overkill.

True on on the blade sizes. Nothing is as wide as a No8 in the stanley lineup. The 6,7 and some latter versions of the 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 all share the 2 3/8in blade though.

[steve swantee]

You're nuts :)
Okay, maybe not nuts but definitely heading that direction. I don't entirely get adding the most massive blade possible to the jointer. It is still a mid-level plane, not a smoother. About the only reason I could see to put the effort in for is if you are trying to go straight from jointer to finish and skipping the smoother. Otherwise it seems overkill.

True on on the blade sizes. Nothing is as wide as a No8 in the stanley lineup. The 6,7 and some latter versions of the 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 all share the 2 3/8in blade though.


Finally!!! The voice of reason :D:D:D. Yeah, I know it's not necessary and it's probably overkill, but it's an idea I've toyed with awhile and I just can't get it out of my head until I do it......and I'm probably a little bit nuts too.

Have yourself a Merry Christmas Douglas




Steve

[steve swantee]

Hello all, hope you all had a great holiday, and wanted to give you a small update on my progress. I got a chance to do some filing to open the mouth for the thicker iron on the 24th. I don't have the 3/16" iron in hand yet, so I moved the frog as far back as possible and made a blank out of some scrap stock the proper thickness so I could gauge how much to open the mouth. I made a thick block of hardwood to use as a guide for my files and clamped it to the bed of the plane, then clamped it in the face vise of my bench. I stopped just short of the final opening size until I have the actual iron, in case there is any variation. There's a lot of filing involved (a cutting disc in an angle grinder would have been a lot quicker, but I didn't want to risk a disaster), and the sole of this No8 is thick, but all is going well and is looking very good so far. The block of hardwood for my filing guide works a lot better than going at it freehand, it keeps the opening square, and the results look good too. Will try to get a pic of my setup for all interested parties in the next day or so. Happy holidays.

Steve

[Jim Koepke]

Steve,
Not sure where you are filing the mouth, but I have seen some recommend to file a bevel on the front of the mouth for better chip clearance.

Just a thought,

jim

[steve swantee]

Hi Jim, I have seen this as well. So far I have been filing it at 90 degrees to the sole, but during final fitting I may put a bevel on the inside for chip clearance. Although this surface originally did not seem to have any bevel to it, just the rough cast surface, and that worked ok, so I'll probably wait to see how well it works without it and if I think it will make any difference. Time will tell. I have a very early (Type 2) No 7 and the front of the mouth is fairly thin and there is a bevel cast on the inside, but the Type 4 No8 does not have this feature. That's partly why there is so much filing, as the front of the mouth is about 1/4 inch thick right up to the front of the mouth opening.

Steve

[Jim Koepke]

That sounds like a massive piece of iron.
Most of my planes did not have a bevel on the front of the mouth either. Some had a slight curve at the top. Those that have new, thicker blades have had the mouth opened and a bevel added when the blade was not going to work as is.

I usually stop fettling a plane when it works very well. Some of my planes could use a little bit of fettling, or more fettling, but I just have not gotten a round tuit, yet.

I like to use them awhile before doing anything to them that can not be undone.

jim

[steve swantee]

Well I guess I'm officially stopped in my tracks for at least a week or more. Got an email from LN saying that my parts were supposed to be shipped on the 24th with the Canadian shipment (Cdn. shipment normally goes out on fridays, but was planned for wednesday the 24th because friday was Boxing Day) but their carriers did not inform them this would not be possible until the last minute. So, they won't be shipped until this friday coming. Sigh... Guess I'll have to wait until NEXT YEAR :rolleyes:.

Steve

[steve swantee]

Well my replacement iron finally was delivered yesterday, and I was able to finish fine tuning the mouth of my No.8. It came out really well. They had sent me a free chipbreaker screw, and when I checked one of my other planes before ordering, I thought they had the same thread, but after receiving it I realized the LN screw seemed a tad smaller. But besides that the screw they sent was the wrong length, as it was too short to reach all the way through the iron to the c/breaker. No matter, I went out to the shop and grabbed one of my old wooden planes which was pretty much junk anyway, and to my surprise, it's screw was the same size and just the right length. So after chucking it up in the drill press and buffing it up like new I now had my c/breaker attached to my new iron. The next hurdle to overcome is attaching some tabs to the c/breaker so the tip of the depth adjuster yoke will be able to engage with it to advance or retract the iron. I was originally thinking of soldering these tabs to the steel c/breaker, but I read about someone using an industrial strength epoxy to attach them, and I think maybe I will try that instead. Apparently it works well, and five yrs later it is still holding firm. So maybe on the weekend I will give that a try. I'll keep you posted.
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Steve

[Bill White]

Steve - Sounds like you've already ordered a blade from Lie-Nielsen, but if you wanted to try a high-end blade in a Stanley Bailey-type plane, these sound intriguing:

http://www.galoot-tools.com/life/blades.html

My assumption is that it would not be necessary to re-engineer the yoke/slot interface with one of these irons.

To All: Has anyone purchased one of these irons and tried it out? I was considering it for a Bailey #6, but went with a Hock because I needed the plane and it was immediately available.

but I would have to carry my galoot-ironed plane around in a Maseratti. It SURE wouldn't ride well in my truck. Way off the charts in my poor, weak mind.
Bill

[Douglas Brummett]

Good find on the screw. Real proof of concept will come once you put that thing to the wood. That iron is way thick. Don't really get a grasp until you post a picture and it smacks me in the face :)

[Jim Koepke]

JB Weld may be the epoxy you are looking for.

My previous Dodge broke the web in the cooling fan. It was put back together with JB Weld. Worked until the car couldn't pass smog.

jim

[Barry Vabeach]

I thought I had read a review of the galoot irons by Steve Elliot or Brent Beach but just checked their sites and didn't see it.

[steve swantee]

Thanks for the tip on the JB Weld, Jim. Maybe I'll pick some up at the hardware store this weekend and give it a try.

Steve

[steve swantee]

Well, I got off work at 7 AM and stopped @ the hardware store in town before heading home and picked up a tube of two part epoxy. They did not have the JB Weld, but had another epoxy especially for steel and concrete, so I figured that would be fine. I was going to use some steel bar stock for the tabs, but I found a short piece of brass bar stock so I decided to use that instead. I hacksawed and filed the tabs to size, approx. 1/8" thick, and epoxied them on either side of the c/breaker's adjustment slot. After I let the epoxy cure ( I left it alone for about 45 mins. ) I assembled the chipbreaker and iron and installed it in the plane and tried out the depth adjuster, and it seems to operate flawlessly. I have about 1/2 turn of backlash, about the same as the plane originally had when I aquired it. So far I'm pretty happy about how this mod has gone, and the plane still looks original except for the massive iron. When I get the chance I will hone the iron and take this sucker for a test drive. I'll post some pics of the c/breaker mod and the final results when I get things honed up and tried out, probably tomorrow. Thanks everyone for your ideas and encouraging remarks, and I'll keep you posted.

Steve

[Barry Vabeach]

Steve, sounds good so far. The brass is a great choice since it is easier to file, if you have to.

[steve swantee]

Had a little free time last night so I honed up the iron in preparation for it's test drive today. As promised here is a picture of my chipbreaker modification with the brass tabs epoxied in place so that the depth adjuster would engage the c/breaker through the thicker iron.
106442
And here is the c/breaker and LN iron assembled.
106443
I took it for a test on a scrap of yellow birch this morning to see how it handled. It has great heft with the addition of the extra thick iron, and can really power through the wood. I had filed a very slight bevel on the inside of the throat to help aid chip clearance, and in my test drive the shavings cleared the throat with no problems. Here's a shot of the plane at work.
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And here's a shot of the happy little guy all cleaned up and feeling very victorious after his inaugural workout.
106446
Thanks again for your suggestions and comments. It was a fun project to do and I'm very happy with the results. If anyone else feels compelled to try this and has any questions just fire away, I'm happy to answer, or PM me if you like.

Steve

[Barry Vabeach]

Steve, though you missed the clean and machined look that I achieved, that is not suprising since this is your first attempt. Seriously though, congrats on a nice job. Barry

[steve swantee]

Thanks Barry, I know I've a ways to go before I'm able to match your level of craftsmanship. That's probably why I backed out and went with the epoxy instead of soldering the tabs-I just knew there was no way I could compete:).

Steve

[steve swantee]

Hello All...long time since I posted here. I was going through some of my old posts and realized I never updated this thread. The epoxied on tabs on the chipbreaker never did hold up, I ended up using the same brass tabs and drilling holes through the chipbreaker and tabs together and inserting a couple of pieces if brass rod and peening the ends. Once I did that I filed the ends flush with the surfaces and it was permanently attached-you can see it in the pictures. It has been an awesome plane to use and was a lot of work but definitely worth the effort!!
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