Am I being too anal?

[Todd Burch]

I've recently had an email exchange with a prospective client who will remain anonymous. It didn't result in business, as you will see below. My question to you is should I have given this person a price based on the information that they supplied?

My feelings are that some clients want me to be a designer, an engineer, a magician, a mind reader and be low cost producer, all for the low cost producer price. You read the exchange and offer me your candid and objective opinions.

THANKS!



From Prospect:
I need 35 slide lid boxes. They need to be 18"w x 18"l x 4"d - with the lid on the 18 x 18 side! Can you help me?
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From me:
I don't know if I can help you. What's your budget? What material? What finish? What joinery? What timefame?
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From Prospect:
I am looking to you for a price to create my budget. Pine would be fine. Joinery-I don't care as long as it has a slide lid. No finish. How long would it take?
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From me:
I cannot give you a price until you give me either plans or full specifications for the box. I'm sorry, but I don't have time to design a box for you for free. If you want to send me a check for $60, I would be happy to design your box and create plans.
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From Prospect:
I need 35 wooden slide lid boxes, pine stock, join then as simply as possible (we are going to paint them). The box needs to be 18" x 18" x 4" with the slide lid being on the 18 x 18 side. I don't have a budget, I need a price. I would need the boxes 3 weeks from the date we place the order.
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From me:
Are these disposable boxes? Are you wanting an heirloom or cheap as possible? Do you care that 18" wide pine lid will warp or that the bottom will split? How thick material? Do you care about exposed nails, or do I fill, and sand? What grade of pine? Do you care about knots or placement of knots? To what grit do you want these sanded, or do you want them sanded? Do you want sharp corners that will splinter or rounded over? If rounded over, what radius or profile? What type of grip do you want on the sliding lid? Do you want them nailed or nailed and glued or just glued?

There I go - designing your box. :-)

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From Prospect:
So sorry to take up your time. Just wanted a price range. Please forget I contacted you.

[Greg Heppeard]

LMAO....I think you scared them. I think the questions you asked were legit. The only thing I might have done different was to suggest a simple box with rabbet joints and using clear pine or possibly poplar. Poplar takes paint better. From the sound of the prospect, they are probably a tole (sp?) painter, they tend not to be too picky about the unfinished product. They're pretty good at taking a crappy little thing and making it look pretty. Not that they do crappy work, just that they are good at making things look nice with paint.

[Mark Singer]

Todd,
You don't need to get every project. You are a true crafstman and the your clients are lucky....you have to go with your gut feel.

[John Weber]

I think he may or may not have had the cash, but didn't really know what he wanted. I might have shot him a high dollar for a middle of the road paint grade box, primed and ready for paint. No spend to much time, but a decent quality unit. Tough call, you might have also said a prototype would be available after the deposit was made. Could have been a corporate flunky, trying to buy something he knows nothing about, or a craft group looking for the cheapest thing they can fine, who knows. I think you handled it fine, asking for more info so everyone is on the same page is never a bad thing, your prospect just needed a clue.

John

[Tony Falotico]

Todd, if there was one thing I learned after 6 years as a freelance consulting engineer, it was that there were some 'clientèle' out there that I just didn't want. My Dad & I had some deep discussions about that, his theory was that you take everything that comes your way.

If you want to be a professional ______________ (fill in the blank: engineer, woodworker, architect, craftsman ........) you have to stick to professional clientèle. There are way to many creeps out there who will gladly drag you into the gutter with them.

Todd, you are a professional who does outstanding work, As Mark said above "go with your gut feel" and don't waste your time and talent looking back.

[Dennis Peacock]

Todd,

You prospect was a little vague on details. I belive I would have figured up a poplar box with dado joints for the dividers and simple butt joints for the box sides, figured materials for each box and provided a higher than normal price quote for the job on a per box basis. A simple square wooden handle for the box lid and nothing more.

As much work as you have, I don't think I would worry about this too much. I feel you did just fine and remained in the true craftsman area of questions and expertise. The prospect just really didn't know how to correspond with you clearly enough to provide what you were asking.

Don't worry about it....you did fine.

[Mark Singer]

Todd,
The interview process is a 2 way street. The potential client gets a feeling for you and you formulate one of them. If they get negative feelings during the interview....you don't get the job. If you get negative feelings you shouldn't want to do the job. A few years ago, I was designing an ocean front home for a couple. Each meeting with them was worse than the previous until I sent the retainer back and said, "I am not enjoying this experience, Please find another architect" Two days latter, I got a call from a wonderful repeat client....they just bought an ocean front lot! It sounds a bit like Depac Chopra....but it is true and it has worked for me repeatedly over the years. I won't do a project if I don't get my fee, don't like the people, don't like the site, don't think the budget is ample, etc. Now that sounds pompus. Actually what happens is you start getting great projects that lead to other great projects and you don't have to do the mediocre crap. It takes a while to achieve...but it is the direction you want to go 100% . It really works. You will love your projects ...your clients will appreciate you and as with all great craftsman you will rise to the top ...where you Todd should, without question,be.

[Perry Schmidt]

One of the most frustrating things I experience is calling and trying to get a 'ballpark' on a car repair. 'I know it's the AC compressor...give me a broad range as what it will cost to replace it...'. Or 'cost to replace the side mirror'. I'm just trying to figure out how much $$$ I'll need before taking it in. And the 'big shops' won't give you any figure to work with at all. (I've 'fired' 2 shops in the last 10 years b/c they stopped giving me ballpark numbers. The last one I very specifically asked what it would cost to replace an alternator on a Chev. Blazer. They wouldn't even give me that w/out bringing it in and charging me $50 to 'figure out' that was the problem. But I digress...)

Point in this?? Maybe he was looking for a range. Now given that he had enough specifications (a pretty exact size, lid, etc.) I would think he could have answered your questions better. So in this specific case - I think you saved a lot of headaches by walking away.

BUT I can sort of see his side - many times I'm looking for a really rough estimate JUST to get some idea. So some response like "basic box, joinery w/ nails, pine...$XX/box. To a nice finish, heirloom joinery, etc...$XX/box". Some rough box type/range quotes might have been helpful to him.

I think - given he wasn't answering any questions, not even a 'I'm using it for this' to try to help you out...I'm thinking this would have been trouble.

My 2 cents (from a customer point of view :)

Hope that helps.

Perry

[Martin Shupe]

Todd,

It seems to me, that if you are going to give a quote, which the customer will expect you to honor, that you cannot do so without accurate information about what is expected of you.

Having said that, you might have high balled the heck out of them, and, if they were a corporate representative, "looking to create a budget", they might have created a budget to cover your "high" estimate.

Then again, they might have been somebody looking for the cheapest price, and they would have taken your estimate to someone else and said, "Todd can do it for $xx.xx, can you beat his price?"

Todd, those of us on this board admire your professionalism and your outstanding work. I am sure once a few people look at that ceiling you posted, you will have more work than you can stand.

Were you too anal? I vote no.

P. S. Don't forget to claim your "free stuff".

[Ian Barley]

Todd

First thing to say - you did the right thing. Giving ballpark figures based on very limited information is always too risky and leads to arguments.

Your prospect should at least have given you the details of intended purpose - from that it becomes possible to deduce lots about the construction.

From the stuff that I see you make this doesn't sound like the kind of work that will best use your clear skills in design, construction and finishing.

The only thing I wouldn't have done is the sentence "There I go - designing your box. :-)". I'm pretty sure that you were being friendly and trying to lighten the exchange when you put it there but read in an email (even with a smiling emoticon) it looks sarcastic. As a customer I don't spend my money with sarcastic suppliers. Thats the problem with email as communication - no facial expression - no tone of voice.

You and I both know that we don't need to get every one and this looks like it had the makings of a nest of trouble - who needs it?

Ian

[David Klink]

I build and sell lighthouses for people's yards in the summer. I generally build them and prime them, and let people paint them as they will, unless they're cedar. Then I seal them and sell them natural.

Last year, I had 2 that people reneged on advertised in the paper to get them out of here. A man called, and he wanted a custom one. He wanted it 6 feet tall, and he wanted it painted. I explained to him about the priming part, but he wanted it finished. I told him I would charge him $30 over the price I quoted him for the cost of the paint and the time to do it. He said fine.

He came to pick it up after it was done, and started to back off because he didn't like the shade of the paint. The kicker? He wanted it painted white with black trim. He said it didn't look like the white was very white, and the black wasn't the shade he had in mind. I showed him the paint cans, which clearly stated WHITE and BLACK on them. He proceeded to describe how he had painted his house white with black trim, and how the colors didn't look the same.

He ended up taking it, but if he hadn't driven 25 miles to come get the thing, I wonder if he would have.:rolleyes:

[Tyler Howell]

Todd!
The term "pinched-up" is more politically correct. :p
When I hung out a shingle for "other stuff" and had a PIA customer that I wanted to go away, I ran the price way up. Everytime they took it, I delivered.... my way and they were happy???? Go Figure.
You're a pro. Don't dumb down your quality for the PIA. Give them the price for the good stuff.;)

[Glenn Clabo]

Todd,
From what I've seen you are far better than just a cheap box maker. If you did anything wrong (which doesn't matter now) you tried to explain what you are. If it were me...I would have presented a price for boxes of a quality that fits your talent. If it was out out the "budget" range...so be it.

I've said it before to you...don't go below your talent...charge what you need to...and you'll continue to get work and more importantly make yourself happy. Don't let the paycheck become the reward for your work. You're too good to go cheap.

[Donnie Raines]

Todd,

What they said, plus....

My feelings when reading the thread was that this person was not really on the market for these boxes...they were doing the "leg work" for someone else. I provide quotes all day long(insurance), and some will say yes, some no and some will say yes, but you can tell it is really a no...simply through "buy signs". And I seen no buy signs in this persons statement to you. Heck, i have had people tell me that they would do buisness with me, I get all the papers in line for the closeing, and then they call and say that their comapny is going to lower my rates becuase they "appreciate my buisness". Well..it does not work that way. Companines cannot "rebate" their rates to gain or maintain a client. Bottom line..they were lying. And I susepct this person was misleading you too.

You did the right thing....

[Earl Kelly]

Todd, the one thing I would have done is, tell them to call me @ xxx-xxx-xxxx And have a face to face over the phone. This is so much better than email. It sounded like a "junk" job you wouldn't want anyway, but you never know.

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi Todd

I have been there just like this (no, not this exact person!). My read is this. Someone is trying to get you to commit to something without knowing what you have really committed to do. What is worse, they may not even know what they want, although people like this seem to be experts at knowing what they DON'T want. Then they lower the boom with all sorts of excessive expectations, changes, and other hassles designed to put you in a hole. Don't feel like you dropped the ball. You are much better off without "business" like this.

Bill

[Dan Mages]

LOL It sounds like some of the calls I get here at work:

Me: So you want to buy some radios
Customer: Uh... yeah
Me: How many radios do you need?
Customer: Im not sure yet
Me: Do you know what frequency?
Customer: frequencies?
Me: Yes, radios require frequencies to function
Customer: Oh...
Me: Do you have a price range?
Customer: Not yet
Me: I'm sorry, but I need more information to help you.
Customer: What do you mean you can't help me?
Me: We make many types of radios and systems. I need specs to narrow it down
Customer: You expect me to know this stuff?
Me: I reccomend talking to a local radio shop. They can help you figure out what you need.

At this time, they typically hang up. I just love working with people....

Dan

[Greg Heppeard]

A fair quote for his project? $20 - $500 :eek: per box. Depends on the details. :D

[Aaron Koehl]

Rule of Design: "The client usually never knows what they want."

That said, I think he was looking for you to sell him a box (albeit, he didn't formulate his proposition very well)--just have to recognize which class of clientéle he fits into.

The large companies usually know what they're looking for, and just need some refinement. The middle-tier and small businesses usually pose the questions like, "So how much for a web site?" The only answer to that question is, "It can be $300 to $30000, depending on what your requirements are."

Of course, that response usually won't go anywhere--the client will be even more confused (and possibly frustrated), and you won't have moved any closer to a sale. In this case the client is looking for you to push some decisions to him. "There are three broad categories. A low end, middle-of-the-road, and high end."

That all said, I would prefer to stay away from the low end clients. Not that what they want is particularly unimportant, but playing "salesman" and being forced to educate the client for low-end prices (that they scoff at anyway) will wear you out quickly.

In sum, this (potential) client needed to be recognized for being a middle to low-end "shopper." Even without good specs, it's possible to take a stab at a price. Either he scoffs at it and takes it, takes it, or leaves it--but 2/3 of those outcomes are positive.

[Mike Scoggins]

Todd,

I agree with Earl's statement regarding having a verbal conversation over the phone. After the second round of e-mails, it seems to me that the potential customer didn't really know what they wanted. This could be honest ignorance on their part (or it could be they're just hard to get along with). If you give them the benefit of a doubt and assume it's just ignorance on their part concerning how much the price can vary depending on joinery/material etc., a phone call would have allowed you to find out pretty quickly. Verbal communication better facilitates "getting on the same page" when the specifications are unclear.

Verbal and written communication both have strengths. It just seems a verbal conversation would be better at this stage of the discussions. After something is agreed to, it can always be confirmed in an e-mail. Having said all this, the outcome might have well been the same. I have a feeling the customer wanted the most basic of boxes as some have suggested. If so, the quality of the work you do is so beyond the scope of such "basic" work in my opinion.

Mike

[Steve Clardy]

One-- glue and nails, slammed together with no sanding. xxxxx price.
Two-- one nice fine heirloom box. xxxxx price.
Then let him decide which one.
But-- I don't do CRAFT piece work anymore. It wouldn't hardly pay the bills let alone make any money.
So stick to your fine work Todd, and stay away from the production get them out the door work. It doesn't pay in the long run.
Steve

[Steven Wilson]

Todd,

I've been on both sides of the incomplete specifications / budgetary quotation fence for too many years now and it sounds like the problem started during the second round of correspondance. At that point you two needed some "face time" to discuss things - email is great but sometimes you just need to meet (in person or the phone). You need to remember that the client likes to see the forrest while you need to spec each tree. At some point you should have been able to give a very rough budgetary quotation stipulating that a proper quotation would be prepared once the final specs are agreed to.

[Pete Lamberty]

HI Todd, First let me say that you got a lot of good advise here. I don't think that I can add anything except this. When I read through the emails, and imagined that I was you, I got a bad feeling from them. Be glad that this person is gone. I guess that is just my intuititive feeling. Pete

[Roger Fitzsimonds]

Todd
THis is all very good advise. But you always need to be true to yourself. and you were in this case. You are to fine a craftsman for production work.

Roger

[Chris Padilla]

Todd, we know your work and kinda know you so all our replies will be biased to a certain degree.

You MUST look at this exchange from the prospect's point of view and you must give them the benefit of any doubts you may have or will form as the "conversation" marches. Your experience means a TON here on how to read people quickly. You a poker player at all? :rolleyes:

Don't expect the prospect has studied your web page very much and even if they did, they may still know diddley about the thousand's of ways a box goes together along with all the intermediate steps like sanding, finishing, joinery, wood type, handle style, lid style, etc. Cost and timeframe are probably the two most important things to most prospects. This was true of this prospect as evidenced by the first two emails.

My first response to the prospect would have been to ask the FUNCTION of the box. From this information, you would have been in a better position to figure out the answer to the questions you posed the prospect later on.

After that, I like the live conversation...one NEVER knows how an email will be taken or read. 10 different people will read your email 10 different ways and react in 10 different fashions and they will remember 10 different things from that email.

You may have done well to pass or passed up a good opportunity...you will never know and as they say, it is all water under the bridge now and hopefully you are now wiser from the experience.

Were you too anal? No. Could you have handled it differently? Obviously yes.

[Donnie Raines]

Chris,

I have to agree to some extent with what you said. Looking back through the "conversation", Todd could have taken the steps to make a phone call or set up an appointment to establish a better degree of dialogue. But I still do not see any true buy signs from this person. Todd would ask a question...and it would not be answered(this is when the conversation should have started). I get e-mails all the time from prospects...most of which are just browsing. Most do not know the coverages they have...so how do compare apples to apples? You can't. Its a tuff call...make money or not. Some times you take on a customer that, simply put, was just not worth it. Sounds really bad I know...but it is the reality sometimes...and I suspect the same would be true for Todd in this case.

[Chris Padilla]

Well, I don't know anything about woodworking for a living but I am one who might call someone like Todd to do something for me. I may not have a budget...I may not have a freaking clue what it will cost. Is it $500 or 3k? I may be that clueless and therefore I will need to fish for costs in order to determine if that is the way I will go.

I don't know what you mean by "buy signs" but contact was made and some specs were given and emails were exchanged. We don't know the outcome because things ended too quickly. The prospect never got a price and Todd never got all the information he required. Both parties came out with a sour taste and nobody happy.

[Donnie Raines]

Buy signs are any signals the buyer may express during the coarse of a conversation..written or oral(though the process is far easier to determine when face to face) that would lead the sealer to seriously beleive that the buyer is truley on the market for.............whatever. When one ask for a quote(I would think this should apply to whatever one may be trying to buy) and they are truely intrested in comapring rates, they are armed with the facts. One must comapre apples to apples...unless he/she is trying to get a feel for the aproximate cost of something..which is not a postive buy sign(if they are not arme with the facts). If the seller makes an inquiery and the buyer does not deliver the response, the seller can not make a sound quote based on facts. I tell you, if you give someone a number not based on facts, you could a) tick them off when the reality of the cost comes to the surface(in my buisness..they tell me thier driving record is clean..turns out they have some speeding tickets...there goes any good driving record discounts..thus the rate goes up).

I know my example is not really apples to apples, but the theroy is the same. The entire process could have been avoided had a phone call been made(on this we agree... :p )

Now...do you think I am being over the top...or is I being cordial??? :confused: :cool: :rolleyes:

[Ian Barley]

Todd is a clever and talented bloke. He does not have to take all the deals that he could just because he is talented. But I do agree with Chris that the one question which might have short cut a lot of discussion is "What will the boxes be used for". The answer to this question may have enabled Todd to formulate a estimate along the lines of "Well my guess would be in the range of $X to $Y. If you would like me to work a detailed spec I will be happy to do so for $60. That way I get the time to do the job properly and even if you don't proceed with my final offer you will at least have better information to approach other possible suppliers".

I would stress that I don't think that this is the right way and Todds was the wrong way. There is no right and wrong way - there are just ways.

I hope all this helps Todd. There have been some good responses here which I certainly find interesting and relevant to me. Good thought provoking post.

[Arvin Brown]

Probably I would have given him some specs (i.e. wood, joinery, finish, etc). I would tell him that the first box would be built (to included design time) for a time and material price with a not to exceed number. I would then send it to him for approval. I would then, after approval, give him a final quote. I think that I would have given him a "ball park number" based upon your specifications. Remember - it will be a "ball park number" (typically high) and the actual bid would follow.

[Paul Downes]

Todd, I think some folks get married that way! :D . It doesn't seem that this person was interested enough to give you enough information to complete the job. It must be that they have a secret market for those boxes and were afraid that you would see their wisdom and steal their business. :confused: Seriously, I wouldn't have played it any different. If they had a clear idea they should have communicated that clearly. I have built a ton of boxes (insect drawers) of similar design for my entomologist dad. There was serious design considerations to take into account even though the boxes themselves were relatively cheap. We kept working to streamline the process. If you want to know how to build cheap sets of 18 x 18 x 1 drawer cabinets let me know. :D

[Todd Burch]

Thank you ALL for your wisdom, advice, counsel and suggestions.

The dialogue, as I posted it, was 95% complete. The only thing I edited out was that in my last email to this person, I had offered them my personal cell phone number if they would care to call me to discuss since I was going to be working onsite that day. The prospect never included any contact info other than their business email address. I went to the www. address and saw that it was a non-local (out of state) marketing-type firm. So, perhaps they were looking for a package for some product they were pushing. Who knows. (Actually, a marketing-type firm that paints boxes in their spare time. :) )

I've been mulling over the emails too, and a couple things come to mind. I was asked for a "price", not an estimate, and not a ballpark guess, and not a range. This person did elude to the fact that it was a range they were looking for in their final email. Had "range" been in the first or second exchange, I would have provided that. I was hung-up on "price", therefore I needed more info.

Also, when asked for more information, this person simply restated what they had already said. I could have taken this as a good exit point, answering the question "could I help them", with a "no".

Yes, the "there I go - designing your box" was sarcastic, and not putting my best foot forward.

I did consider asking the function of the boxes, but didn't.

Again, thank you all. Good feedback.

P.S. Now, this is the kind of email that I LIKE to get; homework has been done and they are ready to make a purchase decision!! (Came in today, with phone numbers included.)

"Todd,

I happened upon your website and am very impressed with your work. I
recently purchased a widescreen tv and need to have either a tv stand or
entertainment center built for it. Please look at the attached photos and
call to discuss when you get a chance. Thanks!"

[Mark Singer]

Todd,
See I was right...it happens often! There is a power and justice in the universe....I have given up on our own justice system

[Tom Sweeney]

It seems to me that this type of work is really beneath you & probably would not be worth your time. . .
However, what if this person was legit just didn't know exactly what they wanted except cheap & fast. What if same person told his boss or FIL or whoever what a great job you did on the cheap & fast boxes & that you also do fine finish work and have some incredible samples on your website? Suppose said person called you 3 weeks later to do a full custom Cherry library?

I guess what I'm saying is you answered everything absolutely correctly from your point of view & the end result is PROBABLY the right one. & from the sounds of the prospects emails was not a good fit for you anyway.

Perhaps in the future you could set up a boilerplate response for this type of "prospect" one that you could easily change a few words to make it fit the particular situation. This way you would not have to spend a lot of time dealing with them & if they actually call you then you have good idea that they are legit.

IE:

We here at Burchwoods sincerely appreciate you taking the time to contact us. In order to quote you an accurate price on a product that you will be happy with we will need more information. We take pride in our work and would not be able to ethicly deliver you a sub standard product where we had to cut corners to meet the original estimate. By working out all the details, in advance, we are certain that we will be able to deliver you a product that you will be pleased with. Please contact me at xxx-xxx-xxxx at your earliest convenience in order for us to better evaluate how we can help you.

In all likelyhood how you would help them would be to refer them to one of us meer mortals who might be better suited for this type of work ;)

I just threw this together quickly but you get the idea - a little bit of tact, even if you reject the job might pay dividends in the future. Of course this is coming from a guy who decided to get out of real estate after he told a PITA client, who was paying cash for a $130,000 house (no not ocean front Mark ;) ), to go $%^&& himself :eek: so take it for what it's worth.

[Jim Becker]

I'll tell you the same thing I've told sales people who have worked for me and with me...."Sometimes you need to know when to fire the customer." This is one of those times. It is very, very likely that this would have been a nightmare project that you would have lost money on as well as sleep. Clearly, this person was not looking for work of your caliber.

[Mark Singer]

There you go! Jim and I agree 100%. Good clients make your work better and in turn you get better new clients! It really works!