Found a Sawstop Issue, from an owner.

[M. A. Espinoza]

I don't know if anyone saw a previous post about some quirks I had found as I was getting acquainted with my Sawstop Contractor.

By themselves a couple I wouldn't consider to be major.



The saw doesn't lock securely when bevelled. The hand wheel locks but unless you are against a stop there is gear lash and the blade if free to move 1/32" or so. There is no provision for adjusting the lash out nor is there an arbor lock. I just figured a well placed C-clamp when I'm cutting staves would take care of it, not thrilled but not a show-stopper.
There is an electronics glitch that gives an error when using a dado blade, but only when it is spinning down. Has to be reset before powering up again. They have a "smart" switch so it must have something to do with the motor spinning so much longer after power is off. The saw is running on a 25' 12g cord until I run a new hard line so that could be it. Spins a standard blade fine so also not a show stopper.
This is my main beef; the carriage has a twist to it that causes to blade to move out of parallel around .020" from low to near full cutting height. I've been working with their tech support to address this issue and their latest response was this.
Direct quote from e-mail "After discussing the issues with your saw with all the appropriate persons, we have decided that we are not going to be able to accomplish getting your saw back into calibration in the field. We simply do not have the procedures, and the saw is not designed to be adjusted once it leaves the factory. If you package up the saw and send it to us, we would be glad to evaluate the saw and insure that it is back into calibration, and then send it back to you. If it is determined to be defective due to a manufacturing defective we will choose to send you a new or remanufactured saw and refund your expenses for the shipping."

What? The saw is not designed to be adjusted once it leaves the factory? Its a contractor saw that uses torque rods to connect front and back trunnions. They NEVER have problems? Having owned a little Grizzly that used the torque rods the dance required to readjust these is something I'm familiar with. Delta even has a service bulletin available to tell someone with a torque rod type carriage how to realign.

So all I have to do is package up my saw and send it to them from Hawaii to Portland and they will address the problem. That shouldn't cost too much.

I put this out there for any other Sawstop Contractor owners to be aware of. If you have a tweaked carriage (this one was like this from the factory box) you will have to ship the saw to Portland to be adjusted.

I suggested I would like to predetermine if this is a factory issue (which it is) by either providing them the information or they can send someone over to determine it. No way am I paying to get this from Hawaii to Portland so they can "decide" if this was a factory issue. Especially on a design that is well-known to sometimes twist (torque rod carriage). BTW I learned on the Grizzly to make sure there are no obstructions when bevelling the saw and there was no cartridge brake incident.

Its just hard for me to believe that they didn't expect to have this be a service issue so I'm a little hot.

[Chris Padilla]

At the least, they should agree to pay for shipping both directions, no?

[Mike Heidrick]

Have you tried talking to the Sawstop techs in person? Have them walk you through everything they would do maybe?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

To their credit they said they'd refund you of the thing was messed up at the factory.

Send it back what's your risk, a couple hundred dollars?

Send it back.

[Steven DeMars]

I would send it back . . . . tell them, they can either refund your money or give you 150% of your purchase price of the Contractors Saw toward their cabinet model . . .

If they say there is nothing the can or will do . . . tell them to read about it in your new "SAD SAWSTOP" blog . . .

In todays economy, I'll bet you will have a new cabinet saw in short order . . .


Steve

[Casey Gooding]

I agree you should send it back. They should also pay shipping both ways.

[Paul Ryan]

I think I would lean on there tech support a little more. And if you don't get any place that way call customer support. The was the economy is right now, I cant believe there products are flying off the shelves. And now one wants a bad reputation when it comes to customer service. A faluty saw is not your responsbility. Godd Luckl

[M. A. Espinoza]

My main beef is that they can't advise how to adjust this issue and want me to send it back for evaluation.

If I still lived in Portland it would be a hassle but doable, but sending something from Hawaii to Portland is no small chunk of change.

Even if it were from the Midwest to Portland it would still be in the couple hundred dollar range and outlandish. If this were an older tool or if there had been a cartridge fire, or if I had some incident to misalign I would understand but it came this way from the factory.

I suppose the other thing is how can you tell that it was improperly assembled at the factory? I guess there could be something that wasn't machined properly but with the torque rods they could simply be assembled out of alignment so how do you prove that was the case?

The kicker for me is the idea that their torque rod design will NEVER go out of adjustment so its reasonable to expect that the saw can only be serviced by their headquarters. Thats nuts. This is a problem with torque rod type carriages, but what is shocking is that they have no way of addressing this in the field.

As of yet.

[John Ricci]

My main beef is that they can't advise how to adjust this issue and want me to send it back for evaluation.

If I still lived in Portland it would be a hassle but doable, but sending something from Hawaii to Portland is no small chunk of change.

Even if it were from the Midwest to Portland it would still be in the couple hundred dollar range and outlandish. If this were an older tool or if there had been a cartridge fire, or if I had some incident to misalign I would understand but it came this way from the factory.

I suppose the other thing is how can you tell that it was improperly assembled at the factory? I guess there could be something that wasn't machined properly but with the torque rods they could simply be assembled out of alignment so how do you prove that was the case?

The kicker for me is the idea that their torque rod design will NEVER go out of adjustment so its reasonable to expect that the saw can only be serviced by their headquarters. Thats nuts. This is a problem with torque rod type carriages, but what is shocking is that they have no way of addressing this in the field.

As of yet.

This will be an interesting one to follow. If there is a problem with a new saw, the repairs along with the shipping really ought to be on their dime. The cabinet saw has had nothing but glowing praise from owners thus far and one should expect the same type of QC with any of the Sawstop tools. I hope they do resolve this with no additional expense to you given the cost of the unit to begin with, otherwise the "price of Gass" may prove to be a bit too high for the product value provided.

J.R.

[Mike Heidrick]

Shoot a note to the owner. PM sent.

[Dewey Torres]

Alight folks,
I have been thinking about this for some time now but I just have to get this out there.


First, what I am posting here is a mere comparison for folks to view. I have only owned one of the said saws.


I used to have a Black and Decker BT2500 saw and it was good to me until a pimped it out as far as it would go and then got a UNI.
When I first laid eyes on the SS contractor I thought it looked similar to my old saw. I am sure the SS has a nice electronic package, brake yada yada but I will say that the fence for sure and most importantly, the problems you describe here (and other minor features) have me comparing it (almost exactly) to the same problems I personally had with my B&D. This may be a coincidence but just food for thought.


I thought of this when I posted a reply to a thread about the TREND T-4 router as being possible competition to the Bocsh Colt because it has plunge capability when a creeker posted this pic in response noting the similarities and informing me that his Freud was terrible.


Again… No allegations here just very interesting IMO.

[M. A. Espinoza]

I'll post however this resolves.

I'll admit I got a little hot with the "just pack it up and ship it back to us and we might reimburse you." But I've spun down some and did want to mention that I've been working with their tech support for a few days trying to get this issue taken care of and they've been cooperative.

Also hopefully this won't go in the direction of talking about Sawstop's business history etc. Thats been beaten to death and if anyone is curious a search will give them days of reading.

I posted this because it is a service issue that seems unique to them, an alignment issue that "is not designed to be adjusted once it leaves the factory". It is not welded nor is it cast as a single piece. These parts are bolted together.

We'll see how this goes but the idea that torque rods can't be adjusted still sounds screwy. If it weren't for the brake and the fact that their elevation mechanism is unique I wouldn't have even contacted them; I know what the problem is.

The front and rear trunnion are not aligned so the carriage isn't traveling in the same plane as it elevates=twist. It ain't rocket surgery.

Hopefully they will generate a "factory approved" solution, its really hard for me to believe they thought their design would never go out of alignment or their manufacturing would be flawless.

I should also add that this was one of the first saws they made #53 I believe. I had it on pre-order for several years and they honored the original price; I thought that was a pretty decent thing to do since I hadn't signed a contract or anything. I've only heard good things about their customer support and have had positive experiences until this issue.

[M. A. Espinoza]

Dewey,

Checked out a diagram of the Black & Decker and its only skin deep.

Guts are totally different.

Besides the brake the elevation design of the Sawstop carriage is unique to their contractor. Its not even very similar to their cabinet saws.


Alight folks,
I have been thinking about this for some time now but I just have to get this out there.


First, what I am posting here is a mere comparison for folks to view. I have only owned one of the said saws.


I used to have a Black and Decker BT2500 saw and it was good to me until a pimped it out as far as it would go and then got a UNI.
When I first laid eyes on the SS contractor I thought it looked similar to my old saw. I am sure the SS has a nice electronic package, brake yada yada but I will say that the fence for sure and most importantly, the problems you describe here (and other minor features) have me comparing it (almost exactly) to the same problems I personally had with my B&D. This may be a coincidence but just food for thought.


I thought of this when I posted a reply to a thread about the TREND T-4 router as being possible competition to the Bocsh Colt because it has plunge capability when a creeker posted this pic in response noting the similarities and informing me that his Freud was terrible.


Again… No allegations here just very interesting IMO.

[Mike Goetzke]

M.A.E. - If I were the service rep I would be on the first plane to Hawaii to inspect your saw.

(I'm in the Chicago area and this morning woke up to about 3" of frozen slush in the driveway - with 4-8" of snow to follow)


Good luck getting your saw fixed,

Mike

[Chris Padilla]

Mike,

Good point!

SawStopTech: Boss, PLEASE let me got to Hawaii to take care of this guy...PLEASE!!!

:D :D

[Phil Thien]

Mike,

Good point!

SawStopTech: Boss, PLEASE let me got to Hawaii to take care of this guy...PLEASE!!!

:D :D

I might even be willing to take vacation days if corporate picked up the flight and hotel. :D

[Randal Stevenson]

I'll admit I got a little hot with the "just pack it up and ship it back to us and we might reimburse you." But I've spun down some and did want to mention that I've been working with their tech support for a few days trying to get this issue taken care of and they've been cooperative.

Also hopefully this won't go in the direction of talking about Sawstop's business history etc. Thats been beaten to death and if anyone is curious a search will give them days of reading.

I posted this because it is a service issue that seems unique to them, an alignment issue that "is not designed to be adjusted once it leaves the factory". It is not welded nor is it cast as a single piece. These parts are bolted together.

We'll see how this goes but the idea that torque rods can't be adjusted still sounds screwy. If it weren't for the brake and the fact that their elevation mechanism is unique I wouldn't have even contacted them; I know what the problem is.

The front and rear trunnion are not aligned so the carriage isn't traveling in the same plane as it elevates=twist. It ain't rocket surgery.

Hopefully they will generate a "factory approved" solution, its really hard for me to believe they thought their design would never go out of alignment or their manufacturing would be flawless.

I should also add that this was one of the first saws they made #53 I believe. I had it on pre-order for several years and they honored the original price; I thought that was a pretty decent thing to do since I hadn't signed a contract or anything. I've only heard good things about their customer support and have had positive experiences until this issue.

I don't know who you have been talking to, but am wondering if you have a video camera?

It seems to me, that you could film the saw and how you checked it, for a LOT less then shipping the saw. This video, could be up and downloaded, or sent to them, where they could have their engineers and customer service and the CEO, review it and their possible fixes and procedures as well.

Just throwing out one more idea, to try to cost effectively get you served, as well as them (and any needed procedures, instigated).

[M. A. Espinoza]

Video probably would have been best but I sent a series of photos along with several explanations to their tech dept showing the blade movement with a dial indicator.

Sawstop did reply and told me how to adjust the torque rods.

Loosen and realign, retighten; I already knew this.

However their method is based on trial and error as you cannot put a flat reference surface across the torque rods with their carriage design. Honestly I was hoping they had alternate reference surfaces milled to help with realignment or a jig design to aid with the process. But they don't. Also wanted to make sure nothing I would be doing would affect the brake, doesn't seem that it will.

I attached the photos I sent them, I thought it was pretty clear what is happening. But then I have the saw in front of me so maybe they weren't as explanatory as I thought. Dial indicator references the saw blade plate.

Low setting, blade is relatively parallel. Raise the blade and it moves towards the fence at the front by around .020"

Anyhow I'm going to have to get the saw out of the station, remove the motor, flip it and start messing with it to realign. It sounds like at least a half-day process mostly dealing with getting it out and back in the workstation. And there is the old "first time is the worst time" factor.

PITA but hopefully a one-time deal.

[John Lucas]

Have you read your owners manual to know what the official return policy is? If covered, pack it up and send it back. The SS is suppose to be safe...and I guess that if it isnt being used, it's safe. But you paid a premium for SS...it should work. In the mean time you are without any TS...next time ask them where you should send the rental charges for the TS you had to get while your new SS is being repaired.

[M. A. Espinoza]

Have you read your owners manual to know what the official return policy is? If covered, pack it up and send it back. The SS is suppose to be safe...and I guess that if it isnt being used, it's safe. But you paid a premium for SS...it should work. In the mean time you are without any TS...next time ask them where you should send the rental charges for the TS you had to get while your new SS is being repaired.

I understand the sentiment, I spent Friday working in the shop and mulling it over. Yeah, losing my tablesaw while it went in for "adjustment" on a slow boat from Hawaii isn't a very good option. I need this tool however so I would have had to find some kind of stopgap or figure out some kind of workaround.

Frankly I decided it wasn't worth the fight and I would just figure it out.

Adjusting it really won't be worse than a lot of automotive mechanical work I've done. Really what blows my mind is that Sawstop didn't have a clear procedure to realign their design in the field. Having to realign a torque rod type carriage twist isn't as common as adjusting stops but it really isn't that obscure.

But then my Grizzly really taught me all I wanted to know about torque rod carriage twist. After every few bevels it would need realignment, however I think it was all of $200-250 when it was new many years ago; not really in the category Sawstop prices their stuff.

I do want to make clear that besides the quirks that the Sawstop seems decent for what it is; a contractor saw. It will be a hassle to realign but that is because of the requirements of the brake and dust shroud. Two aspects of the saw that made it my choice.

I'm just surprised they didn't plan on the need to realign the carriage and can only offer "hit or miss" unil correct as the fix. I think I can come up with something better than that but will only know after I get access to the guts.

[Scott Myers]

I noted in the photos that you are not rotating the blade when you check it in front and back. You need to do this to insure you are not getting error due to the blade having some warp. You have to put a mark on the blade with a sharpie marker and check it in the same spot every time by rotating that spot from the front to the back. I don't think this will give you the kind of error you are seeing, as you don't get it when the blade is down, but you should do it to be consistant and insure you are not introducing any error. I would expect just about any blade to be off by a couple of thousandths, hence the need to the mark on the blade.

Also note the stock blade is just a cheapo $20 Chinese blade, by SawStop's own admission.

My 2 cents.

[M. A. Espinoza]

When I set it to parallel (how I discovered that it changes with height) I did use the same tooth as reference.

For the photos it was the difference between the parallelism between low and high that I wanted to show. So even with a warped blade the readings should be nearly the same at different heights or at least change by the same amount front and back as long as the blade is in the same position.

At least that was my line of thought.

[Jonathan Spool]

I didn't see any reference as to where or who you purchased the saw from. Is there a dealer you shjould be "dealing" with in the picture?
I would strongly suggest using a master plate or similar to do your alignments, not a blade.

[M. A. Espinoza]

Purchased directly from Sawstop.

Although I can see how a master plate can be helpful, I've always aligned with a blade using the "same tooth" method. Usually can get you within a couple thousands reliably.

Just noticed a thread on another forum a guy has a tweaked contractor saw and many have replied telling him about "rod coplanar adjustment".

Still blows my mind Sawstop's plan was to tell people to ship their saws back to Portland for this adjustment.



I didn't see any reference as to where or who you purchased the saw from. Is there a dealer you shjould be "dealing" with in the picture?
I would strongly suggest using a master plate or similar to do your alignments, not a blade.

[M. A. Espinoza]

For anyone that might have this saw wanted to report the saw is in alignment and it didn't require removing it from the stand or turning it on its table or doing it in a "hit or miss" way as directed by Sawstop.

I did have to fashion a jig to give reference as to whether the critical parts were coplanar.

The bolts holding the torque/connector rods were only tightened to 20-30 ft/lbs or so. In other words I didn't have to work to get them loose, and I was only using a 6" long wrench. Bad day at the factory?

With the alignment jig doing this again would probably be a 15 minute operation. Longest part of it this time was the head scratching, making the jig, and fine tuning the process.

[Chris Padilla]

Write it up! (?) and send it to SS and see what they say. Maybe they'll show you their gratitude...who knows?!

I'm glad you got this fixed but what a pain!!

[Don Bullock]

Write it up! (?) and send it to SS and see what they say. Maybe they'll show you their gratitude...who knows?!

I'm glad you got this fixed but what a pain!!

Chris has the "right idea." I'm glad you figured out a solution to your problem.

[M. A. Espinoza]

I sent an e-mail to Steve Gass (Mr. Sawstop) filling him in on the issue and that I had devised a working solution and my willingness to share the information if they are interested.

I'll repeat , this ain't rocket surgery. It seems their engineer should have been able to figure this out and tell me the process; not other way around. I'm sure their engineering department is more than capable of addressing the issue had they taken the time.

This had nothing to do with the brake mechanism or electronics. No way would I have messed with that system. Simply an alignment problem regarding the torque shafts (trunnion connecting rods).

[Jason White]

I'd try your tests with a different blade, just for schlitz & giggles.

JW


When I set it to parallel (how I discovered that it changes with height) I did use the same tooth as reference.

For the photos it was the difference between the parallelism between low and high that I wanted to show. So even with a warped blade the readings should be nearly the same at different heights or at least change by the same amount front and back as long as the blade is in the same position.

At least that was my line of thought.

[Jason White]

I wonder if you should use some Loctite on the bolts to keep them from loosening up again. Otherwise, you might keep having to readjust everything.

JW


For anyone that might have this saw wanted to report the saw is in alignment and it didn't require removing it from the stand or turning it on its table or doing it in a "hit or miss" way as directed by Sawstop.

I did have to fashion a jig to give reference as to whether the critical parts were coplanar.

The bolts holding the torque/connector rods were only tightened to 20-30 ft/lbs or so. In other words I didn't have to work to get them loose, and I was only using a 6" long wrench. Bad day at the factory?

With the alignment jig doing this again would probably be a 15 minute operation. Longest part of it this time was the head scratching, making the jig, and fine tuning the process.

[M. A. Espinoza]

I've heard back from Mr. Gass and I'm satisfied with the response.

I have used the saw since I realigned the carriage, had to realign the blade to the slots again but I expected that after shifting the carriage. Everything is now as it should be.

Then I put one of my better blades on and the results were very good, nearly a polished cut with blade low or high. I should add that the saw would have given a polished cut with the same blade before but only at a specific blade height. Raise or lower the blade and you would get scratches from a "double cut".

FWIW I never expected great cuts from the factory blade but I had only been doing rough work with the saw in the few weeks I had it up and running. And as a side note the blade is a thin kerf 50 tooth Freud and I was surprised how much quieter the cuts were, I had forgotten what a difference those dampening slots make.

I'm going to keep an eye on the carriage alignment, it will probably need attention from time to time so I hesitate to put locktite on the bolts. I might upgrade the hardware or use a lock washer if they seem to creep loose on their own.

I plan to add some PALS front and back. I haven't checked parallelism when the blade is beveled and I expect to do some shimming to adjust that so I figured I would add the PALS at that time.

Living with a contractor saw just requires some attention if you need it to be in "furniture tune". Since the SawStop was a new tool in the shop some of this is just the pains of learning the quirks.