cyclone blower fan question - excuse ignorance please

[Ed Moehlenpah]

I just received today my impeller from Sheldon's engineering. I have the Leeson 5hp motor already. There is an arbor on the impeller, but I'm a bit confused as to how to tighten the arbor if the fan is mounted on the shaft of the motor.
Here's a
<a href =http://ednlina.com/~edm/sheldonimpeller/sheldonimpeller-Pages/Image3.html>picture</a>
of the impeller. Are the allen screws reversed (i.e. should they be mounted with the heads on the inside (fan side) of the blade?)?

Thanks in advance.
Ed

[John Christiansen]

Not sure I completly understand your question, but if you are asking "how does it work"........ Just slide that impeller on the motor shaft and evenly tighten the three bolts. the taper forces the collar to tighten down on the motor shaft. If the problem you have is that you want to place the collar toward the motor and then you can't get your allen wrench in to tighten things, just replace the three allen head bolts with three hex head bolts and use an end wrench.

[Ed Moehlenpah]

The problem was what you identified second, that is, how do I tighten these allen bolts? I hadn't thought of replacing the bolts. That would probably work good. The shaft on the Leeson motor isn't very long, so I need all the room I can get (I think). I have yet to construct my blower housing, and corresponding metal plate.

Ed

[Bob Johnson]

Ed, My cyclone is the same set up as you have. Take the three allen screws out and put them in from the other side, they go in the other side of the impeller from where they are in your picture. You may have to turn the hub a bit to get the screws to line up in the other set of holes.

Bob

[Chris Padilla]

Ed,

Maybe you have this all figured out but I finally pulled some stuff out of the boxes and took a few pics.

That metal blower housing is made from 14-gauge cold-rolled steel while the mouting tabs and motor mount is made from 3/16" thick steel.

Steve King recently posted that his impeller came loose within his housing. It made me glad to have my impeller well-caged! :eek:

[Ed Moehlenpah]

I elected to still try to build my own blower housing. It seems like nobodies fan came out through the mdf/plywood, so maybe I'm still safe. If it bounces around on the metal, I should be ok. I've got somebody building the top metal plate now. Then, on to the construction of the blower housing, then...

Ed

[Chris Padilla]

Yea, the parts on my bench above are the easy ones to assemble! :) I still need to drag the cyclone out of its shipping package! :D

[Ed Moehlenpah]

Hopefully that's all it will take. I still would like to photograph the process for those who may dare to follow. I would like to build my blower housing this week if all goes well.

Ed

[Chris Padilla]

Yeah, we can do that...build the cyclone together and take copious pics. I am not any where near ready to install the DC system but I want an idea of the cyclone size since I'm in the middle of a garage remodel.

[Sparky Paessler]

Chris

I have just started assemblying my cyclone (I have the cone and dust chute together). The advise about removing the hex head screws and putting them in from the other side of the impeller worked for me.

Sparky Paessler

[Chris Padilla]

When you guys moved the screws from how they are pictured in Ed's post to the other side, how far down were you able to push/pound the impeller on to the motor shaft. In Clarke's instructions, he said to lay down a couple pieces of 1/2" plywood.

Upon doing all this, there is no way to get the impeller down far enough to meet those plywood blocks...the split hub bottoms out on the motor shaft plate. Further, the set screw is now down too far to ever engage the key on the motor shaft.

WTH am I doing wrong?? I must be doing something wrong. It almost seems that the split hub should go in from the other side of the impeller...the vaned side. Please clear me up.

[Scott Coffelt]

Chris where did you get the metal housing again? I built mine with the plans, but sure like the idea of a metal housing.

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.cleanshopair.com/

This is Clarke Echols' new website for the DC system he and Bill have put together. I just emailed Clarke my problem with installing the Sheldon impeller on the motor and he included a PDF with new instructions for assembling the blower housing/motor/impeller. I was doing it correctly but just putting the split/tapered bushing on too far and putting it on with it connected to the impeller. You need to remove the bushing first from the impeller, install it and tighten the set screw at the very bottom of the square key, and then install the impeller over that and tighten the 3 screws (inserted from the top so they are easy to reach) to 6 ft-lbs. Whew!! :o

[Chris Padilla]

Hey Ed,

Guess I started without you! :p

[Earl Kelly]

Hey Chris, what is the Dia. of the fan wheel you have from sheldon's? Also if you would I would like the height of the blades. I'm comparing to my Powermatic fanwheel which is about 13 3/4. Wondering if there is enough diff. to change wheels.

[Chris Padilla]

Earl, I'll get those measurements tonight and post back in this same post unless someone beats me to it. I'm pretty sure the wheel diamter is 14" but will confirm.

[Ed Moehlenpah]

Chris, how did you "scribe" the line where you are doing the bends on the tabs? Did you use a marking gauge?

Over the weekend, I got a 1/8" spiral upcut bit to groove the top/bottom portions of the budget blower. I'm behind in this project :-)

Take plenty of pictures for the metal challenged ones among us :)

[Ed Moehlenpah]

http://www.sheldonsengineering.com/download/14MH.pdf

This shows the dimensions of the wheel. I took my measuring tape to the wheel, and it looks pretty close. Mine measured 14 1/16" across as opposed to the 14", but other than that, things appeared as they are in this pdf file.

Ed

[Chris Padilla]

Ed,

For what I pictured above, a piece of 3/4" (reallly 23/32") plywood worked well and a green permanent Sharpie with a fine tip. For others, it is nice to have some hardwood on hand to cut gauges from or make rabbets on.

For the joint above, it helped to have something like the below pic. Those vise grips are from my Kreg kit and worked beautifully to grip the rabbeted block for hammering over the second bend on those tabs.

[Scott Coffelt]

Awwww, I remember those days of working the metal for my cyclone. Looks like your making good progress. Cuts, sore hands, that's the life of a metwl worker. Fun when its done though.

[Chris Padilla]

Ya don't say!? :(

[Chris Padilla]

Steady as she goes...little by little each evening. That flap next to the rectangular inlet is next to be bent this evening.

[Sparky Paessler]

Chris

It looks like we are both at about the same stage in assembly. I worked on installing the inlet last night also.

Sparky

[Chris Padilla]

Hey Sparky...yep...it is nice completing the steps and so far, pretty good. However, if last night you suddenly stopped and thought you heard something in the wind it was probably me cursing like crazy for a foul-up I did! It turned out to not be a big deal but I wasn't happy about it! :(

Pic 1 is a little gauge I cut to get the 60* bend on the long tab of the inlet cutout in the cylinder. Set the TS to 30* and I had my gauge!

Pic 2 is the rectangular inlet being slid onto the cylinder. Some minor metal clearance cutting was necessary to allow this to slide on.

Pic 3 is where the profanity came from. If you notice, you can see a slight crease in the inlet piece (rectangular piece poking into the cylinder). When I drilled the first hole (top hole in pic), I neglected to place any support under it. Hence, when the drill bit pierced the first piece of sheetmetal, it rode up the drill bit, didn't pierce the second piece of sheetmetal thus bending the #$^%!#$ out it! So I bent things back, properly supported the metal, and finished the hole although the darn drill bit still kept walking the first piece up it...just had to get the bit running fast and then plunge it a bit...sigh.

Rest of the pics show the inlet securely fastened to the cylinder. I will later replace these screws with pop rivets...once I get a rivet gun! :D

[Chris Padilla]

Next is the helical ramp that goes inside the cylinder...should be a ball! :)

[Ed Moehlenpah]

Thanks for posting these pictures. Between these and the ones that Jay has been sending me, I should be able to figure out how to build this cyclone! I'm anxious to get started, but I don't even have my blower housing complete. I'm still waiting for my friend to build the motor mount plate.
Ed

[Chris Padilla]

I have TONS more pictures...I try to take several of all steps along with the little issues that one needs to deal with. :) It has been fun building this and posting as well!

[Sparky Paessler]

Chris

I have made some foul ups on mine also but have been able to fix them so far. I haven't drilled the holes for the screws yet so I will learn from your experence and back them up with a board when I do. Hopefuly tonight I will get the inlet completly installed and start on the air ramp (which does look like it will involve a lot of cursing!) :D

Sparky (no cuts so far!) :)

[Mark Bachler]

Sparkey: Glad its working out for ya.

Chris: Nice band saw!

[Chris Padilla]

Mark, I like the MM20...works real nice! :)

Last night was quite frustrating for the DC kit: I decided to replace all the screws with pop rivets since Clarke supplied with quite a few. I am not very experienced with rivets so after work I dashed over to the local h/w store and picked up a rivet gun to handle these 3/16" steel rivets. The packaging on the gun specifically recommends against using 3/16" steel rivets (smaller size is fine apparently) but that is all they had to pick from so....

My very first rivet I installed backwards! :eek: :o !#$%^&!*! The pics show clearly the hacksaw marks on the sheetmetal. Perhaps there is an easier way to remove a rivet but for some reason, drilling wasn't helping so I went the slow/arm aching route. Anyway, after the first one, all the rest went rather smoothly...until the very last one! :mad: For some reason, the gun wouldn't grip the lead for the final pull to break it no matter what I did. I ended up hacksawing off that one and it was it a cramped spot so it sure put me in a bad mood and more profanity was coming out of the garage last night...:rolleyes: I ended up putting the machine screw back in that hole so oh well. I never even got to the helical ramp...tonight for sure!! :D

[Chris Padilla]

Thanks for posting these pictures. Between these and the ones that Jay has been sending me, I should be able to figure out how to build this cyclone! I'm anxious to get started, but I don't even have my blower housing complete. I'm still waiting for my friend to build the motor mount plate.
EdEd,

You don't need to have the blower housing finished to begin the cyclone section of the DC. Get going on it and quit waiting around! :)

[Chris Padilla]

I didn't get as far as I wanted to last night as it took longer than expected to get the darn plywood with an 18" hole in it to fit nicely around the circumfrence of the cylinder. My PC-121 oscillating spindle sander inverted in my workbench came in handy but I wanted a snug fit so I took my time...too much!

Anyway, the neutral vane (helical ramp) was started on. I got all the tabs bent correctly (the last 15 go down, not up! :) ) but I have to admit that I'm about a 1/16" shy of the recommended 18 7/8" to 18 15/16" outside diameter called out in the instructions so I hope this doesn't adversly affect the fit...we'll see tonight! :o

[nic obie]

I logged in to get my daily dose of cyclone pics but none got posted.

Sure hope you guys aren't slacking off!

:D :D :D

[Chris Padilla]

Just a little late tonight but you'll get a double-dose here! :D

Pic 1 is messing around with the neutral vane to get it bolted to the cylinder side. Notice I have two screws securing it to the top of the rectangular inlet.

Pic 2 is the spreading around of the polyurethane caulk to protect this section of the cylinder wall from wood chips/dust impact...obviously this is located just aft of the rectangular inlet. This should prevent any premature failure of the galvanized metal over time.

Pic 3 shows a couple marks to bend these tabs on the cylinder to prepare it for mating to the cone.

Pic 4 is the bending of the tabs. They'll need two bends to create an L-shape.

Pic 5 shows the first fitting of the cone to the cylinder. Continued in the next post....

[Chris Padilla]

Pic 1 and 2 shows the first fitting and how the cone isn't perfectly circular. I marked the spots needing rounding and took the cone back to the bench for some hammering/bending.

Pic 3 and 4 show the final mating of the cylinder to the cone. I'll be darned if it isn't starting to look like a cyclone dust collector!! :eek: :D

The last pic is the polyurethane caulk I used. The directions stress not using silicone and to make sure the caulk is paintable if you plan to paint the DC. I'm not sure if I will paint it so I chose grey-colored caulk to somewhat match the galvanized metal color.

[Jim Becker]

Lookin' great, Chris! It really does look like a cyclone now... :D So...you gonna paint it a pretty color?

[Chris Padilla]

Jim,

I was thinking to paint it some kind of a white (gloss, semi-gloss, flat?) as I plan to paint everything in the garage white for good light reflection but who knows! It could end up Bronco orange with a number 7 in the middle! :eek:

[nic obie]

Nice job Chris.

It doesn't look too difficult, maybe even I'll be able to put one together. I think I'll go ahead and order the kit for my birthday (leave hint to wife ;))

[Jack Diemer]

All those pictures sure brings back memories.

[Chris Padilla]

Good memories, Jack? :confused: ...or just memories! :eek: :D

So now I am putting together perhaps the most difficult section of the DC: the dreaded rectangular (9" x 4.5") to circular (6" dia.) transition. :(

Yeah, it wasn't fun and didn't go together very smoothly at all but with some paitience and conscious effort, I got it to work:

Pic 1 is the two donuts used earlier (18" outer dia. with a 9" dia. hole cut from the middle) being glue together. The inverted cone of the cyclone made a handy clamping station! :D I went back and forth on whether or not I should have just glued two >18" square pieces of 3/4" plywood together and then cut out the circles. I decided not to waste more plywood and just glued what I had. They weren't perfectly matched up but close enough. As it turned out, I was fine....

Pic 2 is me getting ready to hammer the seam of the transition tube together. I took the donut holes from earlier and cut them into smaller pieces so I could ram them inside the tube to help pull the seam tight so I could hammer it flat and tight.

Pic 3 is readying for the making the short side (4.5") of the rectangular portion of the transition tube. Noitice I still have a donut hole deep in the tube to keep that end round as much as possible. Notice I mortised out a section of the clamping block. This area goes over the seam to keep the blocks flat and tru to the bend I was trying to make.

Pic 4 is what you have left after gently hammering the two sides nice and square. Kinda looks like a view of the Milky Way galaxy! :rolleyes:

Pic 5 is my attempt to hammer it more into a square shape using a piece of plywood cut to just fit inside. I am not sure if I made things worse or not! :eek: :( I kinda think I did! :o

[Chris Padilla]

Well, this part was a pain. It took some time, bending, little bit of cutting, more bending, time, patience, several cuss words, some pinched skin on my inner thigh, more profanity, but I finally was able to insert the transition tube into the cyclone. Whew...but the fun had just begun! :eek:

The first 4 pics are shots of how everything looked from the outside and the inside. It was pretty, it wasn't flate, it wasn't nice. Oh well. (Did you catch the cameo shot of the BMW!? :D )

Pic 5 shows about a 100 screws I put into to connect the tube to the cyclone and to flatten it. I went through the pain to put the head of the screws inside the tube as the other way around didn't seem as air-flow resistant no to mention shavings would probably catch on the protruding bolt and nut. Doing this is a lesson in contortion of the human arm, wrist, elbow, and shoulder not to mention flipping your body and cylone about the get the right position! I have all kinds of scrapes and red marks on my arms from this. If you have meaty arms, you mind find this difficult to do but on the other hand, I could have used arms about 2-3 inches longer! :)

Oh, yeah...I purchased my second tube of polyurethane caulk and put A LOT of it around the transition tube to seal it well. It wasn't pretty, but I got it to work and I'm happy in the end.

Can you feel the end is near!!?? :D :D :D

[Allan Johanson]

Hey guys,

I'm not sure how to post pics here (I even have a hard time viewing new messages on this forum)....but I'll try to give it a shot.

My cyclone is a Bill P design made from scratch and I wanted a transition from the rectangular inlet to an 8" duct. So I made one from scratch. But I followed the advice of a friend of Bill's as posted on his web site.

1) Make an 8" wooden disc (or however big you want the round part)
2) Make a rectangular piece of wood the size of the other end of the transition.
3) Join the two wooden pieces with a dowel in the center of each (I used some masking tape wrapped around the dowel to make a snug fit - NO GLUE) - and make it the length of the transition you want (see pic 1...if it works!)

4) Now take some posterboard and roll the wooden form on the paper while tracing the perimeter. Cut it out with scissors and lay it over the wooden form. I stapled the paper onto the form to make a tight fit and trimmed the excess paper with a razor knife. See pic 2...once again, if it works!

5) Remove the posterboard from the wood form and lay it out on the metal, but remember to allow for adding on whatever seams you want for soldering, rivets, etc.

6) When forming the metal on the wood form, it helps to make a short cut with tin snips at all 90 deg corners. Then use a bunch of clamps to start the soldering (or in my case, welding) procedure. I also stuck on an 8" x 7" reducer on the end to help make sure the 8" end stayed round. See pic 3.

7) Have fun removing the form from the metal if you glued up the form. I tapped out the dowel from one end so I could remove the wooden pieces.

8) Add on some sealant to ensure a good seal and attach it to your cyclone. See pic 4.

It took a little time, but it turned out fairly well in the end. I'm going to use this process to make any kind of transition I want in the future.

Allan

[Chris Padilla]

Okay, coming to the final stretch...for now! :)

This part wasn't too bad. Roll a piece of sheetmetal into a 9" diameter cylinder and then insert into the middle of the 1.5" thick donut. Then attach the metal blower housing with carriage bolts, plop it on top of the cyclone, and you are done!!!!! :D :D

Pic 1 is an obligatory shot of my Festool CDD-12 with right-angle attachment and a 3/32" drill bit inserted. :rolleyes: I used it to drill pilot holes for the screws securing the cylinder to the donut.

Pic 2 is a rather important shot as it show two things I found absolutely necessary to achieve good fitment of the donut to sheetmetal. For starters, I needed to sand the donut hole carefully with my inverted PC-121 oscillating spindle sander several times in order to get the cylinder to fit. Next, I used a roundover bit to ease the edge to further allowing fitting of the cylinder to the donut hole. Also notice that the outer edge of the donut required roundover-ing and sanding to get a nice fit.

Pic 3 shows the donut not fitting so well...it take a bit of manuevering and positional pounding to get things seated. Further, this was a test fit so don't pound the sucker in there too far or guess what!? Yeah, you won't get it back out!!:eek: Fit it just so you are convinced it could be pounded home without too much bending of the sheetmetal or splintering/delamination of your donut (assuming you used plywood).

The last two pics show more or less the final step of the cyclone project: the attachment of the blower housing to the donut/cylinder contraption. 8 5/16" carriage bolts with nylon-inserted nuts complete the mating. I don't get to used my impact wrench much in woodworking but I couldn't resist it here! :D

Since I'm not planning to actually install the cylone right away (perhaps in a month or two), I am going to stop here. I don't know exactly how the intake and exhaust will mount so I don't want to bolt up the motor and impeller housing to the cylone just yet. Besides, it'll make moving around everything easier with the 3 separate pieces.

I hope everyone enjoyed the pictures...I know there are lots of them but I hope they help you out if you are taking on the DC kit designed by Bill Pentz and distributed/designed by Clarke Echols. If you have decent hand/tool skills and are patient and if you read the directions thoroughly through at least TWICE, you should do okay putting this kit together.

I estimate 4 solid days on the weekends plus about 1-2 hours every evening for a total of 9 days and somewhere around 30-40 actual hours of work went into this project.

Of course, having built the first one, I am sure I could easily knock the number of hours down at least 33%...maybe 50% if for some strange reason I would ever build a second one.

[Rich Konopka]

Hey Chris I hope you let your neighbors in on what you are building. Those not familiar with DC's might mistake it for a WMD:D .


Seriously, how many hours do you have invested in it?

Best Regards

[Chris Padilla]

Hi Rich,

Quoted from above:

I estimate 4 solid days on the weekends plus about 1-2 hours every evening for a total of 9 days and somewhere around 30-40 actual hours of work went into this project.

Of course, having built the first one, I am sure I could easily knock the number of hours down at least 33%...maybe 50% if for some strange reason I would ever build a second one.

:D

I'm trying like mad to come up with what WMD might stand for but I'm 0 for 10 thus far.... :o

For those curious, here are my costs thus far:

Metal Blower Housing: $150
Cyclone kit: $150
Shipping for all that: $25 (picked up the cyclone kit in person)
Leeson 5 HP motor: $235 incl. shipping
Sheldon Impeller: $160 incl. shipping

I have some other incidentals like polyurethane caulk (two tubes, $5 ea.), rivet gun ($23), contactor ($18), remote control unit ($27), metal box for contactor/remote control unit ($13). I haven't gotten the mounting stuff for the DC but estimate $60-80 for all that. I still need ducting! Still need filters! Still need gates! Still need 6" hook-ups to machines (or whatever size they are)! Still need flex hose! Still need a chip bin!

Sigh... :rolleyes:

[Chris Padilla]

Hey guys,
My cyclone is a Bill P design made from scratch and I wanted a transition from the rectangular inlet to an 8" duct. So I made one from scratch.
Hey Allan,

Thanks for your addition. I read about that trick on Bill's site but it is nice to see picture of it. I guess I am ready to invest in some sheetmetal to try such a thing but I had a terrible time with the rectangular to 6" transition tube as you could tell! I think I need to visit an HVAC place and look at how the pros do these transitions. :)

[Jim Becker]

I'm trying like mad to come up with what WMD might stand for but I'm 0 for 10 thus far....
"Weapons of Mass Distruction"

[Chris Padilla]

Doh!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I just *knew* I'd regret posting I didn't know it! :p How quickly I forgot what that meant...sigh....

Thanks, Jim! :rolleyes:

[Jim Becker]

I wish we "could" forget what it means, Chris...but let's not go there! Nice job on the cyclone...can't wait to see the finished unit up and running. But don't let your small daughter near one of the hoods...she may be mistaken for wood chips and end up in the bin!

[Rich Konopka]

Hi Rich,

Quoted from above:

I estimate 4 solid days on the weekends plus about 1-2 hours every evening for a total of 9 days and somewhere around 30-40 actual hours of work went into this project.

Of course, having built the first one, I am sure I could easily knock the number of hours down at least 33%...maybe 50% if for some strange reason I would ever build a second one.

:D

I'm trying like mad to come up with what WMD might stand for but I'm 0 for 10 thus far.... :o

For those curious, here are my costs thus far:

Metal Blower Housing: $150
Cyclone kit: $150
Shipping for all that: $25 (picked up the cyclone kit in person)
Leeson 5 HP motor: $235 incl. shipping
Sheldon Impeller: $160 incl. shipping

I have some other incidentals like polyurethane caulk (two tubes, $5 ea.), rivet gun ($23), contactor ($18), remote control unit ($27), metal box for contactor/remote control unit ($13). I haven't gotten the mounting stuff for the DC but estimate $60-80 for all that. I still need ducting! Still need filters! Still need gates! Still need 6" hook-ups to machines (or whatever size they are)! Still need flex hose! Still need a chip bin!

Sigh... :rolleyes:

Wow !! That is a time commitment. It looks great and I can't wait to hear how it performs. 5HP ??? You better have everything bolted down when you fire that bad boy up.

Good job !!

[Chris Padilla]

I was thinking about this a bit more and it is probably closer to 25-35 hours. There was time in making jigs: various blocks for bends, cutting circles. Bending 80-120 tabs, however, does take some time! Sometimes I just sat there reading the next step 40 times to try and figure out what it is trying to tell me.

Like I said, if I were to do it again, it would go significantly faster so if I help Ed out, he'll be in good shape and we should be able to knock it out with a solid day's work. You still out there reading this, Ed? :D

[Ed Moehlenpah]

I'm still out here. Unfortunately, I haven't had any time to spare for woodworking recently. Summer can be busy with the kids being out of school. I'm hoping to get some free time in a few weeks. I'll see if I can get the LOML
to clear something up in the schedule! I'll willingly accept an offer of help!

Ed
:rolleyes:

[Jack Diemer]

25-35 hours sounds about right. I might have done even more. If you figure $20/hr for your time ($200/hr for you San Jose guys), the Oneida/Woodsucker/Penn State units starts looking very attractive. Scott Coffelt and I enjoyed doing it once (to say we did it), but the consensus of most (not all), is that we probably wouldn't do it again knowing the time commitment involved. Those other units I mentioned go together in minutes, not hours.

With all that said, the one caviat I did not mention is that the cyclone these guys are building will perform better than about anything you can buy under $2000. But I will also say that I am not sure that being able to suck a 2 foot long 2x4 through your ductwork is all that important (insert 3 Tim Taylor grunts) :cool: .

Good Luck.

[Chris Padilla]

I never liked putting a dollar sign on time spent doing a project. It is a way to measure things but not the only way. I can tell you that I did it because I wanted a superior-performing device than what I could buy for reasonable money (reasonable being very subjective, of course). I also did it because I wanted to more or less build it myself because, well, I like doing that sort of thing. I learned a lot and it really was fun and you always get that satisfaction of having done it yourself when you step back and look at it.

I will admit, however, that had there not been a precut kit, I most likely would not have tried my hand at this DC design...I would have settled for an Oneida or Woodsucker. I think if I had done this from scratch, I would have taken me 10x longer and I would have quit 5x the way in--hence, I wouldn't have even attempted it!

All in all, it was fun (and frustrating) and I look forward to helping Ed with his when he is ready. :D His will go soooo much smooooootttthhhheeerrrrrrrrr :p :D

[mike lucas]

Thank you very much Chris P for the great write up and picture display. I now believe that I have a much better picture for building one now. I have been looking and reading here and at other sites (Including Bill Pentz`s site) thring to get a grasp of what exactly was involved in building a cyclone. But until I found this thread, I had not seen any detailed pictures of the inside. (I am not saying there are no other pictures, just that these are by far the best, and most detailed I have seen,)

I know this thread is some weeks old, but I did not want too start another thread on this subject.

I need to know a couple things that may have been talked about already.
1) Has anyone built a heavy duty Cyclone? I plan on building one based on Bill`s design, but 125% to maybe 133% in size compared to the 18" ones being built. And much more heavy duty. A 55 gallon drum is aproximately 22 1/4" inside diameter (Or about 23% larger then the 18" model. I am thinking that with a 17.5" blower this would work (25% larger then the 14").
2) How about using spray on bed liner for an insulator on the outside of the unit? (This is something that you can have tinted pretty much any color you like) I plan on using this, not for sound deading, but to help protect it due to being outside

My shop is 32x42x10' And I have 14" tablesaw, 16" radial arm saw, 24x9" planer, and several other pieces of wood working machinery. What I plan on doing is to have the main unit outside, (This means that everything needs to be water proof, and heavy duty. All tools/machinery are single phase. Many times I have a helper (My 14 year old daughter) so the dust collector is taking a real hit if the planer and shaper are running.

I already have a Baldor 15hp, single phase, TEAO, farm duty, 3500rpm, 230V only, with a 1.00 service factor.
With a motor this size, and it being a 215Z mounting bracket, I am thinking that it needs a 3 or 4 belt setup.

I am looking for a larger blower, one that is either 17.5" or 18"" and is the same design as the one Bill recommends. If need be, I can build one myself. I am hoping I can buy one that has been tested and proven to work.
I will be building the blower housing out of 3/16" and 1/4" plate steel.

I have a Plasma cutter that cuts 1" stainless steel, Arc welder, Tig/mig welder, and good old fashion torch, and soilder gun. So I think I have all the bases covered here. I have 6 years of Army experiance that I need to get out of my system in order to be a good steel fabricator;)

For the duct work, I plan too use 12" main run, with 8" secondary runs. All machinery will be setup to have either 6" or 8". I am not scared of cutting bigger holes in my machinery in order to have much better dust collection, I will not have anything in the 4" size.

For all you experts, and not so experts; Am I way out in left field during a basketball game, or can this be done?:eek:

As of right now, I have a 3hp dust collector with a 12" radial design blower, and have 6" and 4" duct. This setup fails meseribly, and at least once every 12-16 hours of work, I have to take something apart to clear a clog.

Sorry for making this so long!

Thanks!

[Chris Padilla]

W O W, Mike! You have some SERIOUS/BLOODY tools! :)

Since you have some s/b tools and I assume you know how to use them ( :confused: ), I don't see why you couldn't make this work but I've got to tell you, it is quite a bit of work. Is buying a super-duty commercial unit out of your budget or do you simply want the challenge of doing this from scratch?

I *think* you can simply scale up Bill's design like you are thinking but I've no clue about performance. "Simply scaling" might not be enough if you don't have all the equations in front of you. Have you tried contacting Bill for help? If you get the subject right in your email, he might be persuaded to respond to you. I think he gets so many emails that he has about stopped answering...understandably so, I think.

Good thought on the truck-bed lining. I have a place that shoots the Rhino brand very close to my house and I've been thinking about hauling my cyclone over there for a quote. I would do it mostly for noise but it sure would look cool and be darn good for weather protection, too, even though my cyclone would be in a garage.

Where are you located, Mike? Oh, BTW, welcome to the Creek! Head over to the OT section and pick yourself up a hat! :D

[nic obie]

Mike,

One thing I've picked up about DC designs is that the bigger the cylinder part of the cyclone, the longer the cone needs to be. I think it needs to be way more than the 25% you are talking about.

You might ask Terry Hatfield If Bill Pentz doesn't reply to your email.

BTW, welcome to the Creek. You'll find it a much friendlier place than that 'other' forum. A person can ask a silly question here without getting flamed.

[Greg Mann]

Thank you very much Chris P for the great write up and picture display. I now believe that I have a much better picture for building one now. I have been looking and reading here and at other sites (Including Bill Pentz`s site) thring to get a grasp of what exactly was involved in building a cyclone. But until I found this thread, I had not seen any detailed pictures of the inside. (I am not saying there are no other pictures, just that these are by far the best, and most detailed I have seen,)

I know this thread is some weeks old, but I did not want too start another thread on this subject.

I need to know a couple things that may have been talked about already.
1) Has anyone built a heavy duty Cyclone? I plan on building one based on Bill`s design, but 125% to maybe 133% in size compared to the 18" ones being built. And much more heavy duty. A 55 gallon drum is aproximately 22 1/4" inside diameter (Or about 23% larger then the 18" model. I am thinking that with a 17.5" blower this would work (25% larger then the 14").
2) How about using spray on bed liner for an insulator on the outside of the unit? (This is something that you can have tinted pretty much any color you like) I plan on using this, not for sound deading, but to help protect it due to being outside

My shop is 32x42x10' And I have 14" tablesaw, 16" radial arm saw, 24x9" planer, and several other pieces of wood working machinery. What I plan on doing is to have the main unit outside, (This means that everything needs to be water proof, and heavy duty. All tools/machinery are single phase. Many times I have a helper (My 14 year old daughter) so the dust collector is taking a real hit if the planer and shaper are running.

I already have a Baldor 15hp, single phase, TEAO, farm duty, 3500rpm, 230V only, with a 1.00 service factor.
With a motor this size, and it being a 215Z mounting bracket, I am thinking that it needs a 3 or 4 belt setup.

I am looking for a larger blower, one that is either 17.5" or 18"" and is the same design as the one Bill recommends. If need be, I can build one myself. I am hoping I can buy one that has been tested and proven to work.
I will be building the blower housing out of 3/16" and 1/4" plate steel.

I have a Plasma cutter that cuts 1" stainless steel, Arc welder, Tig/mig welder, and good old fashion torch, and soilder gun. So I think I have all the bases covered here. I have 6 years of Army experiance that I need to get out of my system in order to be a good steel fabricator;)

For the duct work, I plan too use 12" main run, with 8" secondary runs. All machinery will be setup to have either 6" or 8". I am not scared of cutting bigger holes in my machinery in order to have much better dust collection, I will not have anything in the 4" size.

For all you experts, and not so experts; Am I way out in left field during a basketball game, or can this be done?:eek:

As of right now, I have a 3hp dust collector with a 12" radial design blower, and have 6" and 4" duct. This setup fails meseribly, and at least once every 12-16 hours of work, I have to take something apart to clear a clog.

Sorry for making this so long!

Thanks!
Mike,

When you first talked about scaling up this much my first reaction was, "I wonder if this guy knows how much power this will take?" Having 15HP avalable is good. However, while your diameter is 23% larger, your area (pii*r*r) is 50% greater. You will also need to be careful in picking a speed as the periphery of your impeller will be travelling almost 6ft. per revolution. At 3500rpm, simulating a 1 to 1 ratio, you would be traveling at 21,000 rpm or 240 mph!! You may not be out in leftfield but that is where I would put this sucker! I suppose with the resulting air flow, you could probably get away with it out there as well. I think your biggest obstacle will be fabricating a good impeller, balancing it, and picking the optimum safe speed. I may be speaking out of school but you will probably want the periphery of the impeller to be travelling no faster than Chriss' unit, which will mean fewer rpms than his unit. You should still see an increase in volume if the other design aspects are maintained and scaled correctly. Perhaps the safest path, literally and figuratively is to commision Bill's buddy to make and balance the impeller. I really don't speak as an expert here on DC. Any help or response you get from Bill would be very helpful to filling in any gaps you may feel exist in your own perceptions and experience. Please be careful.

Greg

[Scott Coffelt]

I'm with many on this subject, I built mine from the DE and BP plans, works great for most mid size shops, but seriously you need to consider a large commercial grade unit. I have seen them where you add sections as you need.

Also, Bill spent many years with folks figuring the right combination, any change in requires precise changes in other pieces. Finally, I would strongly recommend that you have someone fabricate the blade housing and out of some thick stuff.

[Bill Pentz]

Mike,

First you go to the CFM Requirements table (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/DC4Dummies.cfm#CFMRequirementsTable) on my web pages to see how much CFM you really need. Based upon the tools you listed, you do not have anything that requires over 800 CFM.

Next you go to the Static Pressure Calculator (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/StaticCalc.xls). A worst case would be the cyclone in one corner and a machine in the opposite for a total of 74' with 4 right angle bends, 1 hood, plus 3' of flex. Use 3" for my cyclone design and 0.25" for a pair of cartridge filters. That gives a total static pressure of 9.09".

To determine how much impeller and motor you need for that, go to the Fan Table (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/DC4Dummies.cfm#FanTable). Looking across the top you will see that 9" puts you in the larger shop category needing at least a 13" impeller with 8" inlet or 14" impeller with 10" blower inlet. That table also shows you the minimum duct size is 6" with a maximum of the same as the blower inlet. For the 14" impeller that is only 10" maximum ducting diameter.

Because air at typical dust collector speeds and pressures will barely compress at all, it is more like water. Opening a water valve part way will kill flow. Similarly, using anything but all 6" ports on your machines will have the same effect and kill the airflow. If you upgraded to all 6" ports, but then went with a larger diameter ducting, you create the same problem, not enough airflow in the larger diameter pipes to ensure you do not build up piles in the mains. Those piles tend to slam into impellers and filters when more airflow becomes available, so contrary to what many advise, I do not recommend graduated ducting sizes. Go with one size and stick with it all the way through. The smallest you can use that will meet your machine needs is all 6" duct.

With a 6" ducting setup, my standard 18" cyclone is near ideal for your needs as is.

If you were to step up to a larger duct, multiply the ducting size by 3 to get the cyclone diameter. Everything else automatically calculates for you from the MS Excel spreadsheet on my web pages.

This also works in reverse. I am making a cyclone for my vacuum system. It uses all 2" pipe so ends up with a cyclone diameter of 6".

Hope this helps.

I do answer all of my email except SPAM and those who send me emails with an invalid return address.

bill

[mike lucas]

Thanks for the replies! It looks like I will be saving the monster motor for yet another project.

No hard feelings here, I know how to cut and weld steel, I know nothing about cyclone`s. That is the reason I posted! I wanted/needed to find out from the one`s here that know about how Cyclones are built, and how they work.

The reason I was looking in to up sizing this was because sometimes two machines are running at once, and I thought that you add the 2 together to figure out how much dust collecting power one needs.
As for buying a large one, the one I looked at was more then $4500, and that did not include any duct work.

If you all (Mainly the resident expert Bill Pentz) think the 5 hp 18" is about right then, that is all bigger I want. I was not real excited about the 46 Amps that 15 hp motor was going to pull.

If I read you correctly Bill, you are saying that I need to neck down the duct some? If all the trunk line is 6", should I use the dust pickup that came with the machine? even if it is 2", 3", or 4"?

Thanks again!
one more thing, how about having it outside? Isn't the Leeson 5hp open drip proof? Would you recommend building a roof over it?

[Scott Coffelt]

No, actually what I believe Bill was saying is run 6" to all machines if at all possible. Now, some machines just aren't adaptable for 6", so design it that it still gets 6" of air (i.e., have a wye that opens both if you need to compress to a 2" adapter like a CMS or something). Alternative is to open two gates at once, I do this from time to time when I need to use a tool that can only accept a 2" or 4" port.

[Bill Pentz]

Scott is correct on the machine port sizing. Go to each with 6" and if you cannot connect, then use an open wye connector.

The open-drip proof Leeson 5 hp compressor motor (really 3 hp) that I recommend is not what I would pick for outdoor use, even with a cover. I personally would go for a TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) motor of the same size. Ask Barry at Electric Motor Warehouse what he would recommend.

bill

[mike lucas]

Scott is correct on the machine port sizing. Go to each with 6" and if you cannot connect, then use an open wye connector.

The open-drip proof Leeson 5 hp compressor motor (really 3 hp) that I recommend is not what I would pick for outdoor use, even with a cover. I personally would go for a TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) motor of the same size. Ask Barry at Electric Motor Warehouse what he would recommend.

bill Thanks Bill!
There are many woodworkers that Appreciate all that you have put in to the dust collecting subject. It is an honor to read your work.
Thanks again!

Mike Lucas

One other thing;
On the system I currentlly use, I have to open all the gates a very small amount in order to help stop the hose/pipe from getting plugged. Will Bill`s design Cyclone have this problem?

Also, several years ago, when I first started using a dust collector, I had a fire under the table saw caused by what looked like blue lightening inside all the hoses. (which I quickly put out) After that I placed 14g bare wire in all the hoses. (Most of my duct was 4" plastic hoses) I have now read through Bill`s pages what seems like a dozen times, and if I understand it correctly, The wire needs to be on the outside. Is this correct?

Thanks once again!

Mike Lucas

[Bill Pentz]

One other thing;
On the system I currentlly use, I have to open all the gates a very small amount in order to help stop the hose/pipe from getting plugged. Will Bill`s design Cyclone have this problem?

This problem is caused by using small downdrops going to a larger main. All should be the same size in a hobbyist system where only one duct at a time is open.

Also, several years ago, when I first started using a dust collector, I had a fire under the table saw caused by what looked like blue lightening inside all the hoses. (which I quickly put out) After that I placed 14g bare wire in all the hoses. (Most of my duct was 4" plastic hoses) I have now read through Bill`s pages what seems like a dozen times, and if I understand it correctly, The wire needs to be on the outside. Is this correct?

Although I don't doubt you had a fire, I strongly suspect it did not come from static electricity. It is more likely than not that you either launched a spark from cutting through a nail or other piece of metal.
No that is not correct. Plastic is an insulator so attaching a grounding wire will only bleed off a little of the static charge in a local area. Putting it outside the pipe only helps take care of the outside. If you look at my Ducting Pages - Static Electricity (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Ducting.cfm#Static%20Electricity) you will see the only way I have found or heard of that reliably drains off the static and does not cause ongoing problems with building up dust piles and debris on the interior wires.
bill

[Scott Parks]

and I came accross this thread. I've been following Bill's website for 3 years, and plan to buy Sheldon's airfoil impeller, and use the Delta 2hp motor. The reason for me choosing this combo is because I only have a 15amp 110v circuit for my DC. If I use an extension cord accross the garage, I could use a 20amp curcuit. I'm severely power limited in my garage.

Just wanted an update from those who have built this. Anyway, my question is, for those who have done this combo, is it still working out okay? How is your performance? Is the Delta motor good and reliable? Or is it worth stepping up to the Leeson 5hp motor? I'm hesitant to go to the Leeson 5hp due to my lack of electricity power.
Thanks...

[Norman Hitt]

and I came accross this thread. I've been following Bill's website for 3 years, and plan to buy Sheldon's airfoil impeller, and use the Delta 2hp motor. The reason for me choosing this combo is because I only have a 15amp 110v circuit for my DC. If I use an extension cord accross the garage, I could use a 20amp curcuit. I'm severely power limited in my garage.

Just wanted an update from those who have built this. Anyway, my question is, for those who have done this combo, is it still working out okay? How is your performance? Is the Delta motor good and reliable? Or is it worth stepping up to the Leeson 5hp motor? I'm hesitant to go to the Leeson 5hp due to my lack of electricity power.
Thanks...


Scott, I'm no motor expert, but I think that if you use the same diameter size impeller the other guys are using and try to run it with a 2 hp motor, it will still try to pull the amps necessary to turn that impeller, which will probably exceed it's design amperage, overheat, and probably self destruct,.... Unless, that 2 hp motor has a much greater effeciency rating than the 5 hp compressor rated (probably 3 hp actual) motor, and I don't think it does.

The amp draw shown on a motor plate is what it is expected to draw at it's rated hp, but if the LOAD the motor is trying to pull requires more hp than the motor in use, the motor will continue to draw more and more amps to try to pull that load, hence the over amp situation.

Hopefully one of the motor experts will get on here and explain it better.

Cheers, and Saw Safe..........Norm

[Ron Schweitzer]

Scott,
If the 2 HP delta motor you are referring to is the one goodmember (?) sells/sold it is a 220 volt motor, I think any true 2 HP motor will be the same.
My model number is 62-185.
Here is a picture of the plate.
Ron
Edit: I pulled the pic as I was having problems posting pic in another thread, I thought I might be using to much space, it didn't help.:o

[Bill Pentz]

I have carefully tested the Sheldon's impeller and many other 14" impellers in different cyclone configurations. The highest amperage draw I have been able to get a Sheldon's 14" material handling (MH) impeller to pull when connected to a cyclone without filters or ducting was only 9.2 amps. The average draw at working pressures ranges from 6.2 to 8.8 amps. All are well within the 10 amps that the Delta 2 hp motors are rated. In short, that motor should run this impeller all day long without a problem from trying to move too much air. You still should use an amp meter to verify there is not a problem with your particular configuration.

Unfortunately, I still recommend the much heavier Leeson 5 hp compressor motor (really 3 hp). Single phase induction motors take a huge beating when starting even with minimal load. When you add a really heavy impeller with large vanes on it, you significantly increase the startup loads. I have seen my digital meter show startup draws for an instant well over four times running amperage. These loads are typical in a compressor and compressor motors are built to start with these kinds of loads. Frankly, so is the Delta 2 hp motor to a degree because it was engineered to start while moving a heavy planer cutter assembly.

I have not heard of anyone having problems with the Delta motors dying during use, but have heard people have killed the Delta, Leeson, and even Baldor motors if they constantly turn their dust collection on and off. At one time I found on both the Baldor and Leeson motor sites information that said you can damage the motor if you cycle them on and off more than six times an hour. One recommended to limit the start stops to no more than four times an hour.

It kind of becomes your call trading off cost versus reliability and available power in choosing between these motor solutions. Although I have both Delta and Leeson motors for testing, I personally prefer and when my cyclone is up, use a larger Baldor pump motor (also made for high startup loads), because it makes less noise.

bill pentz

[Ron Schweitzer]

Thanks Bill, I bought the Delta 2 HP thinking I'd build your airfoil blower but then I bought the Clarke blower housing and found out it was designed for a 14" MH impeller.
I didn't think the 2 HP could survive the load a 14" Shelden impeller would place on it.
I'll give it a try and I guess I won't be out anything other then my labor if it smokes.
Ron

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Bill and others,

With my 5HP Leeson and Sheldon 14" impeller my amp draw is around 15 amps with no filters and about 10 feet of 8" ducting. This is also sucking around 1700cfm at that point too.

The amp draw numbers will come down when the ducting and filters are in place, but I thought I'd mention it to reinforce the fact you really need to have an ammeter in your hand when you play with this stuff.

The 5HP Leeson motor is a little different from the 2HP Delta with the fact that the Leeson will draw almost 7 amps with NO load. I found that during testing and was shocked. :eek: I went to the Leeson web site and their info matched my results.

So you can't always compare amp draw between completely different motors.

Just thought I'd throw more confusion out there to make you use an ammeter. Better safe than sorry! :D

Cheers,

Allan

[Chris Padilla]

I understand that 3-phase motors do just fine with constant off/on situations as one might find in a hobbyist's shop/garage. Too bad most of us do not have easy/cheap access to 3-phase power.... :(

[Chris Padilla]

Hello Folks,

I thought I might as well continue my cyclone put-together in this thread so I'm bringing it back from the depths of the GW & PT forum! :rolleyes:

I'm now in the hanging phase of the cyclone and thus have been working with the impeller housing.

My first attempt to hang this didn't go well and in the end, I tore it all down to do it "more correctly." Had I been thinking correctly, I would have had this all done before having the drywall put up but oh well.... :o

To do it "more correctly," I ended up removing a small section of drywall to access the rafters more cleanly and attached cross-members and hang threaded rod (3/8" 16 tpi). I plan to add some vibrational hangers as well but the threaded rod served to get the placement correct.

[Chris Padilla]

Next, I wired up the electricals and remote control for the DC.

The use of a simple lamp or light control module and a contactor with a 120 Vac coil controlling a 240 V, 30 A switch and I now can turn on my DC with the touch of a remote control! I decided to hang the light control module out on a piece of 2x4 to ensure good EM access for the remote control. Some of the drywall I used in the garage is a special soundproof kind and it contains some metal layers in it so I wanted to keep this module away from it.

The extra white rip cord is from a small 8" fan that I will place up near the motor to keep some air on it in hopes to keep it from ever overheating on me. Since I'm cramming the motor as near the roof as possible, I thought this might be a good idea. The fan will also be on the same remote control.

The wiring for the motor will connect to the two terminals at the top of the contactor and enter in the lower right section of the box. The 120 Vac coil is connected to the light control module (the black/white/green 16/3 orange cord) and the 240 Vac line in (black/red, #10) connects to one side of the switch.

Next, hanging the fully-assembled cyclone! I still need to figure out my ducting (I've decide to go PVC for mine) and pick up some filters for the exhaust.

To continue....

[Jim Becker]

Looks good, Chris. I'm sure you already thought of it, but you might consider having a few very brawny friends available for the "hanging"...that's a LONG way up!

[Mike Weaver]

Thanks Bill, I bought the Delta 2 HP thinking I'd build your airfoil blower but then I bought the Clarke blower housing and found out it was designed for a 14" MH impeller.
I didn't think the 2 HP could survive the load a 14" Shelden impeller would place on it.
I'll give it a try and I guess I won't be out anything other then my labor if it smokes.
Ron

Ron,
Have you killed the motor?
The reason I ask is I have the same motor and using it would save coming up with a motor mount for the HF motor I also have...

Any regrets using the 2HP delta?

Cheers,
-Mike

[Allan Johanson]

Good job so far, Chris. I did the same remote control method - works great! I love it.

I mounted my cyclone motor 1" from the ceiling. I thought about a fan of sorts to help blow air at the motor, but I don't think it's needed in my case at least. There is no way a pocket of warm air would stay in that area. At least not warm enough to hurt the motor.

Keep the pics coming!

Cheers,

Allan

[Chris Padilla]

Jim,

Yep, I'm starting to think about how to best get the whole she-bang mounted. I think controlling the whole thing will be easier once I get the cyclone's body mounted to the impeller housing/motor. It will be very top-heavy like my compressor. My neighbor will help me out along with SWMBO. We'll get 'er! :D

Alan,

I tested out the remote--seems to work from everywhere so I'm quite impressed. Now I just need to NOT lose the remote or spend time hunting for it in the future!

Since the motor will be elevated in a vaulted ceiling at about 12 feet, I think heat can easily get trapped up there so I picked up a cheap little fan at the hardware store that I think will work nicely.

No problem with the pics...I think you know that about me by now! :D :D

[Bill Pentz]

Chris,

You again have done an incredible job with your sharing and posting. Your building and documentation are excellent. Thank you for sharing.

I’d like to add a few thoughts.


Mounting your motor up high above the sheetrock can cause cooling problems. Please ensure you have enough clearance, at least 1”, above the motor for cooling. Some find they must add a small cooling fan because a small inset area traps heat. Here is the mounting option I currently use:
http://BillPentz.com/Woodworking/Cyclone/CycloneHangingWithMotorShocks.gif

My doctor has asked me again to remind all who use dust collectors, cyclones, and exhaust fans that these units move so much air they can and often do draw deadly carbon monoxide out of the vents from our water heaters, furnaces, heaters and other wood, coal, charcoal, oil, gas, etc. fossil fueled appliances. He strongly recommends all woodworkers buy and use carbon monoxide monitors in their homes and shops.


Your light control module with contactor is the same circuit that Jim Halbert built for me and shared out on my web pages back in 2001-03. I pulled that circuit down after the second person got hurt. I still recommend woodworkers not build these units unless they know what they are doing or have a licensed engineer or electrician to help.


Not only do I agree with you on the value of building things yourself and not making time an issue, frankly today, meaning the first of August 2005, hobbyists still have little other choice to provide good fine dust collection than to build their own system just as you have done.




When commercial firms were required to clean up their air back in the late eighties, the medical folks gave us new standards and air engineers had to redo their standards to ensure good fine dust collection. The government agreed on a standard that required 0.5-micron filtering in spite of the medical experts recommending 0.2-microns. Going through the air physics calculations shows it takes 800 CFM to provide good fine dust collection at most hobbyist tools and woodworking activities. Careful testing of each particular machine by air engineers verified this was the case. A few machines that make dust over a wider area need more airflow and those that have blade guards, tables, and other air limiting designs sometimes need a little less. They also found that most existing machines needed larger ports and internal ducting to carry the needed airflow, plus better designs and hoods to keep the fine dust under control before it could escape. Regardless, almost all fine dust producing activities and most hobbyist machines need 800 CFM with real 0.5-micron filters.


When my doctor convinced me to share with other hobbyists what I learned about fine dust collection and my personal solutions in 2000, there was not one single hobbyist vendor except Felder who offered a good fine dust system. All dust collectors had some combination of too small a motor, too small impeller, too little filter area, too open filter bags, bad blower housing design, poor separation ring, or some combination of these problems that left them unable to move enough air or provide the filtering needed for good fine dust collection. Most also had gravely inflated claims for horsepower, filtering efficiency, pressure, and airflow. Frankly, only Jet and Powermatic cited ratings that actually proved true in my testing labs.

The cyclone situation was worse. Every hobbyist cyclone that was available was a downscaled version of the same huge cyclones we see outside large woodworking facilities. These units use very high internal turbulence powered by huge blowers to separate fine dust from chips. They do that well achieving about 85% separation efficiency by weight, almost exactly the same as a hobbyist trashcan separator lid. Downscaling these for hobbyists to use indoors requires a 7.5 to 15 hp motor with a 13.5” diameter cyclone that only sits about 54” high. With hobbyists unwilling to buy these huge motors and not having the power at home to run them, hobbyist vendors began making compromises and came up with designs that move too little air, leave the ducts building up dangerous piles of dust, and end up putting close to 100% of the fine dust into the filters. That filter loading quickly kills the airflow needed for good fine dust collection and cleaning the filters wears them out quickly, plus gives us dust baths every time we clean.


Disgusted with that whole game, I filled lots of time in bed putting my engineering degrees to work doing the research, studying the physics of swirl tubes of which cyclones are a special case, then designed and refined a better solution scalable for any sized woodworking shop. Concurrently and independently Larry Adcock developed his WoodSucker that proved an excellent unit for smaler shops. I gave my information and solutions away for free on my web pages. My email and site interest grew beyond what I could maintain, plus, too many complained about lacking the tools or experience to build metal cyclones. My son and I in 2002 began providing cut metal kits to help. The numbers of requests grew too high for us to keep up, so I hired the cutting of these kits out. None of those I trusted worked out. When my son returned from school he resumed supplying metal kits, but negativity on the woodworking forums left sales dead. Unwilling to keep his cash tied up in unmade kits, my son and I built the ones we had into completed cyclones. Demand exceed our available time and my health precluded running another business, so we called time. My son still sells a few metal kits, but I turned over making the completed units to Ed Morgano with his Clear Vue Cyclones. Ed is a delight to work with and does great work.


I recommend others follow your lead and do the homework first to make an informed decision before committing to a dust collection system that works poorly. Again thanks for your posts.

Bill Pentz

[Chris Padilla]

Thanks, Bill...good to hear from you.