Thoughts on #7 Jointing Plane

[Lyndon Graham]

Having never even touched one, any opinions on the Lie-Nelsen versus Lee Valley will be welcome?

[Mike Henderson]

Having never even touched one, any opinions on the Lie-Nelsen versus Lee Valley will be welcome?
You don't indicate anything about your use, but unless you're a really big hand tool user, a Stanley will work very well for you - you won't gain a whole lot by getting a LN or a LV.

Mike

[Danny Burns]

I use to think a #7 was the biggest plane I would have.

The blade width changes from a #7 to a #8 from 2 3/8" to 2 5/8" being one reason why I didn't want to go higher, since my LV jig would not hold a wider blade, but after having the opportunity to handle both planes, I decided that the extra weight of the #8 was a real advantage.

If you can try a #8 out before you buy.

[Tristan Raymond]

If you were thinking of a LN or LV you could probably get a #7 and #8 Stanley and have some money left over. I love my LN and Veritas planes, but my jointers are Stanley and they are fine.

[Lyndon Graham]

OK, here is the confession of my sins.

I have never used a plane before. Today: I am building a cabinet makers workbench. The 1st thing I need is to make it and keep it flat. and after the moisture thing happens, make it flat again.

Tomorrow: I have dreams of thick and massive type SW "rustic" furniture, starting with shelves 2" thick finished. I would love to be able to make these of Mesquite, but the cost will be a stretch so maybe a cheaper wood will be necessary.

[John Dykes]

Eh - would be tempted to buy a Stanley #7. Learn to sharpen and use it (Did I mention how much I like Charlesworth DVDs?)... Use the $350 you saved on something else.

If you are new (as we all are\were), and aren't quite sure what you might need, you may run out of money very quickly buying the very best of each tool. Good tools won't depreciate... If you take care of that Stanley #7, it's likely you'll be able to sell it for more than what you bought it for.

Learn to sharpen.
Learn to sharpen.
Learn to sharpen.

[Joel Goodman]

Another vote for a Stanley #7. I have a type 15. I added a new iron but that was mainly due to pitting on the old one and was a "luxury" touch -- not essential. Save the big $ for other planes. If you're newish to planes go to Sandy Moss or Walt or one of the other dealers you see recommended here -- you'll get a good tool with no surprises and could always return it if need be.

[Joel Goodman]

Just noticed you said you were a new plane user -- in addition to the #7 Stanley why not get a very good block plane from LN or LV -- this will be a useful tool to learn about planes with that you will need as well. Combined you'll still save $. And don't forget sharpening stones!

[Thomas Knighton]

+1 here for the #7 Stanley. However, I do have to add that looking for old hardware store brands might be a cheaper alternative. They were often made by companies like Stanley or Sargent but can occasionally get missed by tool collectors, so their prices are pretty low. I picked up my DE7 (Diamond Edge from Shapleigh's Hardware) for about $40 in really good shape.

Tom

[Lyndon Graham]

Just noticed you said you were a new plane user -- in addition to the #7 Stanley why not get a very good block plane from LN or LV -- this will be a useful tool to learn about planes with that you will need as well. Combined you'll still save $. And don't forget sharpening stones!

I now own a:

Lie-Nelsen Low angle Block
Veritas #4 Bench

I am looking for the next one: Shoulder or #7 smoothing?

as for sharpeming, I am on that like white on rice.

Thanks

[Thomas Knighton]

I'd go #7 myself. A shoulder plane's role can be done by other tools, though not as well as the shoulder plane can do it. However, when you need a jointer plane, only a jointer plane will do ;)

My thoughts on it anyways.

Tom

[Andrew Homan]

Lyndon,

You don't need a shoulder plane now. If you can get a wide chisel or a file, that will help you fit tenons for now. As for the jointer, the Lie-Nielsen is a wonderful tool but you can save a lot of money now by getting an older Stanley #7. If you want to upgrade the Stanley, order a replacement blade and chipbreaker from Lie-Nielsen, Hock, or Lee Valley.

I use a very old Stanley #7 with LN chipbreaker and blade. I've used it extensively for four-squaring boards and it has served me well. I think that it would have worked fine with the original blades, but the thicker blades made it easier for me to hone freehand. The chipbreaker, even with the old blades, gave an instantly recognizable improvement in performance.

The main thing is, get your jointer and start jointing and trying boards. I'm not sure where you are located but find out what kind of locally available woods are relatively inexpensive and fairly easy to plane, and get to it. One tip about starting out via handtools to make a first bench: watch out for bench plans that are aimed at jointing laminated tops out of a dozen pieces of wood. It's a bear of a task if you are handplaning, and no one from the era of hand-tool woodworking would have made a bench like that! If I had to start over again (hindsight is 20/20) I would have sourced 2 or 3 large slabs for the bench top. If you get a chance, check out Roy Underhill's website (The Woodwrights Shop) and look at the episode where he builds a workbench -- it's a miniature Roubo, perfect for a hand-tool-using woodworker.
-Andy

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hello Lyndon,

The only thing I would add to Andrew's great post is that if you do breadboard type ends for attaching your end caps (if you have them), is that a large shoulder plane or other plane like a moving fillister is easier to level the "tenon" than a rasp or file (which is what I use on "regular" tenons).

And there are options locally for a vintage plane in good shape. One is Pacific Nortwest Tool Collectors meetings:
http://www.tooltimer.com/PNTC.htm

Winter meets are every other month in Aurora, but through the late spring until September are at Bill's (wonderful) place outside of Hillsboro. Low cost. If you cannot wait, I would point you to another local, Jon Zimmers:
http://www.jonzimmersantiquetools.com/
Jon was one of the very first people to use the web to sell old tools. He's a top-notch person.

Another old tool person I highly recommend is Lee Richmond at The Best Things in Richmond VA. The vintage tool section:
http://www.thebestthings.com/vintools.htm

I see you are in Hillsboro. I am in Forest Grove, the shop is in Cornelius. While I no longer have my metal bench planes, you are welcome to borrow my wood jointer. That goes for any other help you may need during your build. Feel free to come by or call.

Take care, Mike

[Andrew Homan]

Hello Lyndon,

[...] if you do breadboard type ends for attaching your end caps (if you have them), is that a large shoulder plane or other plane like a moving fillister is easier to level the "tenon" than a rasp or file (which is what I use on "regular" tenons).


I forgot about that, and Lyndon will probably indeed be making breadboard ends with the style (Southwest Rustic) that he proposes to build! Still, I think that he can hold off on the shoulder plane for now. (Bench project)



While I no longer have my metal bench planes, you are welcome to borrow my wood jointer. That goes for any other help you may need during your build. Feel free to come by or call.


What a nice offer! When I built my bench, a friend's shop and use of his tools were the key to my success (and lack of frustration).
-Andy

[Mark Roderick]

I own the LN #7. It is a fabulous tool and I use it all the time.

[Mike Cutler]

Lyndon

I have the LN #7 and the LN #7 1/2, in addition I also have a Stanley #7 and #8.

Your original question was a comparison between the LN and the LV #7's. Either the LV, or LN would be an excellent choice, and I honestly don't see you going wrong choosing one from either company. Both have high quality tools, and both have an excellent after the sale reputation.

If flattening tops is your primary concern right now, I would personally be looking for a #5 in addition to the #7, and consider getting a scrub plane also. I would skip a #6 at this point, if the top isn't humungous you should be able to fo from a #5 to the #7, or #8 pretty efficiently.

I won't get into the Stanley versus LN, or LV. That's a debate that will never be satisfied. All will flatten a top/board very effectively, and have done so thousands upon thousands of times. The only compelling argument for a new LV, or LN versus an older Stanley is that out of the box, the LV and LN can be put to work immediately with confidence. Sometimes for a person new to handplanes, without access to someone experienced, this can be important in achieving initial success.

You'll know when you actually neeed the shoulder plane, but in my opinion it is a "required" plane.

[Andrew Homan]

I have the LN #7 and the LN #7 1/2, in addition I also have a Stanley #7 and #8.
I honestly don't see you going wrong choosing one from either company. Both have high quality tools, and both have an excellent after the sale reputation.


Mike,
I understand where you are coming from, regarding the overall quality of the tools (LN and LV), but does your answer really apply to the immediate uses for the tool that the original poster is planning to buy?

Reading your post, it makes it sound as if the matter is a pure toss-up, but I don't get a sense from your post of whether you use your planes frequently to dimension rough stock. It is clear that you have relevant experience to compare the planes in question.

I ask this because I use a variety of planes in my shop, including a bevel-up plane (LN 62). I don't consider this medium-length bevel-up plane to be interchangeable with its bevel-down counterpart, the #5. I do not have a bevel-up jointer, but have tried one. I'm not convinced that the bevel-up jointer would be the tool of choice for someone getting his initial kit of tools to dimension rough lumber by hand.

The comments above regarding the shoulder plane obviously related to the OP's later post, where he indicates that there is some question of whether he needs a long bench plane (#7) OR a shoulder plane. The answer is clear, whether or not he will need a shoulder plane later, that he absolutely needs a long plane if he plans to dimension long pieces of lumber without the use of power tools.

I don't believe that anyone who is suggesting that the OP could get an old Stanley #7 is intending to open up the debate about whether Stanley is preferable to LN. Personally, I prefer LN planes, and use them, but in this case, reading the OPs posts on this and other forums, I get the impression that his reading has led him to believe that he needs certain tools, when in fact the choice is much broader. On the other hand, he has also been led to believe that the choice is broader in some cases than it needs to be. (Bevel-up vs. traditional bench planes)

There is a lot of info posted on woodworking forums and tool catalogues that muddies these choices for beginning hand-tool woodworkers, and part of it is caused by unclear indications of where someone is coming from in their use of hand tools. Case in point is the reiterated point that small block planes are a must-have. Also the notion that a smoother is good place to start, when in fact the initial hurdle that a beginner will face is in four-squaring a board, for which a #6 or #7 (or a long woodie) are better suited.

-Andy

[Joe Close]

Lyndon - I have a LN #7, and love it. It works right out of the box. If you hone a quick secondary bevel on it right out of the box, it works even better. I have no experience w/ a LV plane, but I do not recall ever reading anything bad about their tools. I do plan to own some LV tools in the future.

This thread seems to have taken a turn into what is required to dimension stock, so I guess I will chime in. I’m not trying to discount any previous opinions on this thread, but just share my experience as a new wood worker.

I am new to wood working, and like you am in the long process of putting together tools and a shop. There is a lot of info out there that makes tool buying for a new guy confusing. As far as hand planes go, I found a DVD that help simplify that initial purchase of hand planes. Chris Schwarz's "Coarse, Medium and Fine: Fundamental Wood Working Techniques." The DVD breaks down plane usage, and what is really required to dimension lumber. You really only need 3 planes to do this task. Certainly, the more planes which a person has at their disposal, the more diverse work a person can perform. But initially, you can get by with 3 planes and accomplish your goals of dimensioning lumber, and flattening a bench surface.

I have followed the examples laid out in this video, and they do work, at least for me they do. I have a Stanley#5, bought from a BORG store about 12 years ago that I use for coarse work. The sole is not flat. So I ground the blade in a radius and relegating this plane to coarse. I have a LN#7 for medium work, and a LN#4 for fine work. With these 3 planes, I've been able to dimension stock, square it, and put a fine finish on it. *Sharp irons are key to any of this* If you take the time to hone your irons razor sharp, you will understand.

That said, I feel a good quality tool is an essential part of being able to accurately work stock. However, the technique/methods used play an very important role as well. Without the proper techniques, a guy can become frustrated and feel the tools are not doing what they are suppose to. My point is, put as much effort into learning how to “properly” use a hand plane, as you do in selecting the hand plane. It pays off in spades!

[John Dykes]

It works right out of the box.While there is some truth to this statement, there is a bit more to understand (speaking from experience). The finest, most expensive plane - that has been tuned by it's very maker - only works for about 20 minutes - "right out of the box."

A 100 yr old, poorly tuned, yet sharp,#7 Stanley will work 1000 times better than a brand new, finely tuned LN #7 that hasn't been sharpened in an hour.

Learn to sharpen.
Learn to sharpen.
Learn to sharpen.

[Eddie Darby]

I have never used a plane before. Today: I am building a cabinet makers workbench. The 1st thing I need is to make it and keep it flat. and after the moisture thing happens, make it flat again.

When doing this job, I reach for the heaviest bench plane that I have.
Bevel Up planes tend to be lighter than their counter-part Bevel Down bench planes.

If you are trying to save money, then learn to fettle a plane and get an old Stanley on EBay, replace the iron and chipbreaker with a modern upgrade, such as Hock, and you will be well on your way.

You can chase the high bumps with a #4 or #4 1/2 Smoother just as well as a #5 Jack, so you might want to think about an intermediate plane as well here.

Oh and sharpen it well, with Scary Sharp if you are trying to save money. Did someone already mention sharpening?:confused::confused::eek::D

Sharpen
Sharpen
Sharpen

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

A 100 yr old, poorly tuned, yet sharp,#7 Stanley will work 1000 times better than a brand new, finely tuned LN #7 that hasn't been sharpened in an hour.



I really don't understand that statement. Granted, those handplanes of years gone by are certainly better than the current (post WWII i guess) production Stanleys. But to say its "1000 times better" than a LN or Veritas? I'm younger, new to the forum, 3 years into the hobby, and maybe "wet behind the ears", but frankly, that's just bollocks.

Lyndon, a LN#7 is a beautiful plane, works fantastic with a well maintained blade. The machining is spot-on .001 flat, the fit/finish is as expected with LN. If you have the coin, don't hesitate on the LN. Otherwise, look for the older Stanley or Record on ebay, get a granite slab and sandpaper and go to work shining it up. buy a Hock or LN blade and chipbreaker and enjoy.

Personally, I went with the LN #7 because I had $150 in Woodcraft gift cert. saved up and that took a nice chunk of the hefty price tag of the LN. But, I also have a great appreciation for toolmakers right here in the USA that are committed to making tools of such high quality.

[Alex Shanku]

uhh...it seemed like a little tongue-in-cheek statement stressing the importance of keeping irons sharp. Thats all I took from it.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

uhh...it seemed like a little tongue-in-cheek statement stressing the importance of keeping irons sharp. Thats all I took from it.


Man I hope so...I'm the one scrolling for advice on these forums and rarely post...but when i see statements like that, holy bananas!

I've had one of "those" days, so i guess i gotta turn down the reaction knob.

[John Dykes]

John,

Welcome to the Creek.

Regardless of your usage of quotation marks, I didn't say what you have quoted. A sharp #7 Stanley will work a thousand times better than a dull LN. Fully accurate, and I'm sure you can agree with it.

My point was, regardless of what you spend - no plane works long "right out of the box" for very long. Sharpening is crucial. Again, I'm sure you can agree.

We'd probably disagree if a new hand tool user would be best served by spending 5-6 times more on a "beautiful" plane than a fully functional Stanley; but it wasn't my point.

The OP said he's never used a plane, but has "dreams" of building stuff... My guess is, he'll be wanting to buy all kinds of neat tools here in short order. For the price of a LN #7, he could get a Veritas shoulder plane, Stanley #7, and one of Mike's saws. But again, not my original point.

I'm sorry you misread what I wrote, but pretty sure what I said was accurate.

[Dwain Lambrigger]

I purchased a type 11 #7 Stanley from someone here on the creek. It was fettled and ready for use. All under $100.00. I am looking for an 8. I feel this is MUCH better than to buy the LN or LV. I can't imagine they work any better, and I didn't have to mess with it. I figure I paid $20 to $25 for that service. Now I have a very good jointer, and I saved a lot of money. I would only consider LV and LN if I was looking for a unique plane (#2 or a shoulder, or even a bevel up plane), and purchase old fettled Stanleys and Bedrocks for the standard lines...

[Mike Cutler]

Alex and JohnMorgan

I understand John Dykes statement, and agree with it. John is a great source of info on hand planes, and I've always enjoyed reading his posts here on the forum.

Being that John was responding to a statement I made. I think it's a good discussion point.
Any handplane must be sharp, very sharp to work effectively, regardless of the maker, or age. A blade as wide as one on a #7, or a #8 is going to require quite a bit of effort on the part of the user when used to flatten and join panel faces. There is a lot of friction involved.
The sharper the blade, the easier it will be to use. The easier it is to use, the more control the user has. A dull blade will require more effort, than a sharp one will, and thus less control is realized as the physical effort increases. Eventually you'll get tearout and chattering and have to start all over again.
When I said "It works right out of the box", the intent of my statement was that a person new to using handplanes would "probably" find the plane sharpened to a point that it could be used effectively,and also get a physical/mental "feel" for how the plane should feel as a baseline reference.
I have found all of my LN planes to be sharpened,and honed with an abrasive medium somewhere around 400 grit from the LN. I have subsequently sharpened and honed them all to 8000 grit, and can tell the difference.
They might last a little longer than "20 minutes", but they will eventually need some work as John pointed out.

I did cloud the issue somewhat when I introduced the LN #7 1/2 in my post, as pointed out by Andrew, and should not have done that The OP was specifically asking about traditional bevel down planes,and I should have focused solely on that.
In my defense I will say that the bevel ups are very nice,and do have a place, but Andrew is correct. they are different planes altogether.

[Dave Anderson NH]

John Dyke's statement is not only true, but it is absolutely key information for everyone. This is most particularly true for someone new to our hobby. Sharpening effectively is a gateway skill, without the ability to sharpen, an $8000 Holtey infill smoother becomes nothing more than an expensive paperweight after the original edge dulls. I will admit it would be a pretty paperweight though.:D Depending on the hardness and abrasiveness of the wood, his 20 minute estimate could even be a very generous one.

It is extremely important that new hand tool users find someone with really sharp tools so that they can understand what truly sharp actually is. Learning on your own is fine, but things progress much faster when you have a benchmark or better yet a mentor.

[John Dykes]

Mike -

Deja vu all over again.

My response actually quoted Joe Close's first line in a poor attempt to stress sharpening. But yes, I absolutely agree with you, and Joe, and JohnMorgan - that the LN #7 works right out of the box. The phrase is fully accurate and appropriate. Saying that the statement is "deceiving" does come across as combative. I apologize.

As you are well aware, I've got a bit of a soft spot those struggling to find the slope. My only hope, regardless of his purchase (Stanley, LV, LN), is that the OP finds success in the use - and care - of his plane. And that he learns to sharpen... ;)

Respectfully,

[John Keeton]

I logged on earlier today and checked this thread again. My thought when I read JohnMorgan's post was that he just hasn't been on the creek long enough to know some of the others that are wading around in the water.

I started to comment on John Dykes' knowledge and near obsessive nature regarding his tools, etc. But then reconsidered knowing that John Dykes was a good ol' KY boy and would be fully able to defend himself - and he has done so with the valor and dignity of a true Southern gentleman that has found himself in the shadow of the Rockies.

JohnMorgan, welcome to the creek! You have picked a fine group of people with whom to exchange opinions. Some have thin skin, but most, like John Dykes, just enjoy the exchange!!

[Charles Shenk]

I have a LN number 7 which I bought after a productive and long summer. I treated myself. Life is short. What the heck. it's not that much money in the grand scheme of things.

A bailey works great but the LN is a step above IMHO. The extra mass helps when working face grain...like my hard maple benchtop. I prep my lumber with machines but like to hand plane joints before glue up. I find I am able to get tighter seams. I also like to do final surfacing with hand planes when possible.

I say get started with a bailey and after some time, if you are still into neandering, pick up a LN or LV. :D

[Brian J. Williams]

I own two #7's and two #8's (all Stanleys). I haven't typed them, but I do use them in my weekend woodworking efforts. I really like the #7 for jointing. I've fitted a simple maple fence to the side with clamps on one of the 7's, and it does a wonderful job. (The other #7 is a new acquisition yet to be fettled.) The #8's are both oldtimers that I resurrected as workers. While I find them a little unwiedly for jointing, man do they do a job for surfacing, after which a quick trip with the 4-1/2 finishes things nicely.

Having used an LN jointer only once, I'd have to say it was pretty cool to use. But, considering I like to rehab old planes, I figure my only cost was my purchse price, and I got the #7's and #8's for less than $200 all told.

My FWIW

[Alex Shanku]

Alex and JohnMorgan

I understand John Dykes statement, and agree with it.

So do I. Did I give the impression I didnt? :cool:

[Alan DuBoff]

A 100 yr old, poorly tuned, yet sharp,#7 Stanley will work 1000 times better than a brand new, finely tuned LN #7 that hasn't been sharpened in an hour.
Yeah, so? The Stanley will be the same after an hour of working with it also...


Learn to sharpen.
Learn to sharpen.
Learn to sharpen.
This has nothing to do with owning a LN or vintage Stanley, all edge tools need to be sharpened, including hand saws. All craftsmen should know and understand how to get their edge tools sharp.

IMHO, comparing a finely tuned Stanley to a finely tuned LN, the LN is a better tools hands down. Better quality, less slop in the adjustment, a thicker blade, better quality blade (although I find the vintage blades to be good, they are not as good as a LN blade).

Clearly all of our mileage varies, but from my perspective the LN is clearly the better tool when comparing apples to apples (i.e., both full tuned and sharpened to their best).

[Alan DuBoff]

I see you are in Hillsboro. I am in Forest Grove, the shop is in Cornelius. While I no longer have my metal bench planes, you are welcome to borrow my wood jointer. That goes for any other help you may need during your build. Feel free to come by or call.
There 'ya go Lyndon, that's like hitting the lotto! :cool:

My $0.02 (i.e., take with large grains of salt), save the $$$s on that dado set for your table saw, take a ride over to Mike's place, and see if he'll let you use one of his handsaws to cut those tenons. :)

Couldn't get better help with sharpening either...in general, Mike is excellent with sharpening most all edge tools.

[Terry Beadle]

I have a #7 Record with a Clifton blade and stay set. Works like a dream. The cost was way less than a LN.

If cost is your main factor, I recommend a Steve Knight plane. I have a 17 inch razee jack in cocobolo that is too sweet. Great blade and the weight is a goer.

Less cost than that would be a Hock iron in your own Krenov woodie.

[Rob Luter]

I use a Stanley #7 Frankenplane (shown below) assembled from a number of vintage parts. It was purchased at a Midwest Tool Collectors tailgate sale for the grand sum of $40.00. The japanning is about 90%, the bottom is flat, and the tote and knob are crack free. Add in the 30 minutes of quality time spent on the iron and the result is a sweet user that looks pretty good too. Considering it only gets used occasionally the cost/benefit ratio is right where I need it to be.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=85529

I'd love to have a LN for many reasons, but the money I'd spend on that will be better used on other tools that will allow me to broaden my woodworking skills. I think it was Ron Hock that said, "when it comes down to it, a plane is a blade holder". As long as the blade is sharp and held correctly, the wood doesn't know the difference between my old #7 and a brand new LN.

[John Dykes]

Yeah, so?

/sigh

I'll just knowingly nod and say, "Merry Christmas Alan."

[David Keller NC]

Lyndon - Back to the question of what you need to flatten your bench, and what you need to do hand-tool work with rough-sawn boards.

For both your bench and 4-squaring rough sawn boards, you need 3 planes: a roughing plane, a jointer, and a smoother.

The roughing plane is generally shorter than the jointer, and is sharpened with a heavily curved iron. Opinions vary, but I use a curve with a 10" radius.

The jointer needs to fit the size of your work - typically, that's a #7 or a #8, though if you were a model maker it might be as short as a #5-1/4 (the so-called "Junior Jack"). The iron in this plane is also sharpened with a curve (for surface work - some sharpen it straight across for just jointing edges).

The smoother is generally the shortest of the three, and shaprened with only a very slight curve to the iron, with a tight mouth, and set to take a very light shaving.

So - What to get? My thought here is that, assuming you've the funds, I'd buy L-N or L-V planes. There's absolutely nothing wrong with some antique Stanley, Union Tool, Ohio Tool or Sargeant planes. Some will need tuning and a new blade. Some will be only suitable for parts (i.e., cracked mouth, sheared tote, stripped threads on the frog, etc...) While I like antique planes and use them in my shop, there's definitely a learning curve to figuring out what you need to do to a plane to make it perform well in addition to sharpening and honing the blade. That's a lot of stuff to learn before you can make the right kind of shavings, and with the L-V and L-N planes, you've only to learn how to polish the back of the blade and hone the bevel. Just that might be a bit of a challenge the first time you do it.
Moreover, if you get frustrated and decide handplaning is not for you, you can sell either for pretty near what you paid for them.

As for the specific planes to make up the set, I'd suggest a #6 for the roughing plane, a #8 or a #7 for a jointer, and a #4 for a smoothing plane. These are the most often selected sizes for general work. If you were planning on smaller work, then I'd select a #5-1/4 for a roughing plane, a #6 for a jointer, and a #3 for a smoother.

You also might consider getting a bevel-up smoother (either L-N or L-V - Stanleys are relatively rare and have a collector's premium on them) in place of the bevel-down #4. The reason is your stated preference for mesquite. As I understand it, mesquite is a tough, hard wood, with lots of grain reversals and changes. Generally speaking, a high effective cutting angle helps with that type of wood, and a bevel-up smoother will let you get a 60 degree effective planing angle.

Also - Consider that you will use your jointing plane a lot if you're doing hand-tool work. Even if you use a powered planer and jointer, the next tool on the wood will be the jointing plane, followed by the smoother. It's not a bad idea to get a very high quality plane for a jointer and smoother, and go with a lesser quality plane for a roughing (or fore) plane.

[Marcus Ward]

I have 2 #7s, one is fairly pretty, the other, not so much. It's very serviceable but a lot of japanning is gone off of it. Third from the left in attached photo. I got it for a song and would let it go for the same song. $20. And shipping, since you live far far away. Oh God, I'm offering to sell a tool. I feel sick. I'll try to get it in fine fettle before it goes out the door so you won't have to mess with it much, if you want it. The #7 to the right of it is what was used to flatten the bench they're on. They do a great job.

Let me add that if you want to buy new, I'd get a Lee Valley / Veritas bevel up jointer. It'll let you swap blades out for different effective angles so you can plane anything, the planes perform absolutely outstandingly out of the box, and do an incredible job on everything you put them to.

Doh, forgot the photo:

Edit again, pic was too big so I'll link it.

http://www.f-64.org/bench/S2010006.JPG

[Chris Friesen]

I ask this because I use a variety of planes in my shop, including a bevel-up plane (LN 62). I don't consider this medium-length bevel-up plane to be interchangeable with its bevel-down counterpart, the #5. I do not have a bevel-up jointer, but have tried one. I'm not convinced that the bevel-up jointer would be the tool of choice for someone getting his initial kit of tools to dimension rough lumber by hand.

You don't specify why you don't like the bevel-up jointer.

Chris Schwarz has mentioned that he thinks he can take thicker shavings on his #5 than on the Veritas bevel-up jack, this makes some sense due to the geometry of the situation.

On a jointer though, you're normally not taking thick shavings. (maybe 6 thou or so) so that shouldn't be the issue. One thing I've heard mentioned is that the higher center of gravity of a bevel-down jointer makes it easier to sense when you're off vertical for edge planing. This may be true, but I haven't had problems in this area with my bevel-up jointer.

Personally, I started out with the bevel-up jack for flexibility, then bought the bevel-up jointer for the additional flexibility of being able to share irons between the planes. I intend on eventually getting the bevel-up smoother (for the ability to hone steep angles for difficult woods) as well.

Realistically I'll probably pick up some bevel-down planes as well, but I have no immediate need for them.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

Hey John Dykes, I guess I misread your post - my apologies - no harm meant.

I would certainly agree that it pretty much all comes down to keeping a good sharp edge on your tools. Certainly there are other factors which may make the experience more or less enjoyable, but a sharp blade is a the real starting point.

I wonder if the guy that started the thread found his answer. 3 pages of replies later...

[Greg Cole]

I wonder if the guy that started the thread found his answer. 3 pages of replies later...
Lyndon, do you feel that you have gained anything? Seriously, not trying to stir up the bees nest any, just asking as these threads become so convoluted someone with no hands on hand tool experience gets lost easily.
My very simple advice is to take Mike W up on his offer. If nothing else take a ride to his shop and you'll be amazed at what you'll learn by "osmosis" from a chap such as Mike. And my last tidbit will be to hammer on the sharpening skills, they are paramount to using any blade holder err plane and chisel.
Marcus... you are actually going to let one of the flock leave the nest? You been into the wine today? ;):D:rolleyes: Oh, wait.. it is almost Christmas and all. Cheers!

[Marcus Ward]

Oh yeah I should have added some major jealousy getting to go over and talk tools with Mike W. You can't beat that. Go talk to him before you do anything.

[Lyndon Graham]

Lyndon, do you feel that you have gained anything? Cheers!

Let me answer that in about 12 hours, something is in the works.

[Greg Cole]

Oh yeah I should have added some major jealousy getting to go over and talk tools with Mike W. You can't beat that. Go talk to him before you do anything.
No kidding!
I'd have a $20 in an enveolpe on the way to Windsor as well. A good user for the price of a case of cheap beer is hard to pass on man. Wanna sell it to me?:D:D:D Slow Bob could use a brother...;)

[Lyndon Graham]

Let me answer that in about 12 hours, something is in the works.

Well, I bought a #7 Stanley. I paid $39 for it ($50 incl shipping).

Here it is:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=110325251150


I hope it works. But if it does not, I am only out $50. :)

[Marcus Ward]

You're out 95, it doesn't have a blade, just a chipbreaker. :\

[Tristan Raymond]

Yeah, but it'll be a better blade. A new tote would also be nice, otherwise it looks to be in good shape. And it has a nice looking knob!

[Lyndon Graham]

You're out 95, it doesn't have a blade, just a chipbreaker. :\

and should I upgrade the chipbreaker?

what blade to buy? (from who, carbide or plain steel?)

[Orlando Gonzalez]

I replaced mine with a Hock blade and chipbreaker from Craftsman Studio (reduced w/free shipping). Blades come in A2 or O1 steel. You can also get them from Woodcraft. Alternatives are the Lee Valley blades and the Lie-Nielsen blades/chipbreakes. You can't go wrong with either brand. All these blades are thicker than the original so you will need to adjust the frog to compensate for this. I'm sure more experienced members will chime in on this point.

HTH
OG

[Marcus Ward]

Hmmm...

$57 for the plane
$75 for blade and chipbreaker
$25 for a new tote.

No guarantee the sole is flat... :rolleyes:

How much is that Veritas jointer again?

[Lyndon Graham]

Hmmm...

$57 for the plane
$75 for blade and chipbreaker
$25 for a new tote.

No guarantee the sole is flat... :rolleyes:

How much is that Veritas jointer again?

The Lie-Nelsen is just under $500

[Orlando Gonzalez]

Marcus,
LV Bevel Up Jointer - $279. I got lucky and found a #7 locally with a flat sole for $40 + $65 for Hock blade/chipbreaker. But others MMV especially if buying from *_bay.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

Congrats, Lyndon - good buy. Stanley Baileys are solid classics. Don't listen to the naysayer's about the sole being flat. 300 Grit wet-sandpaper and a flat granite surface and a some scrubbing will flatten it out if there are issues.

I purhcased a LN blade and chipbreaker for my old stanley number 5 and never could get them to adjust properly...so i sent them back with no hassle's. My stanley was a 80's era cheaper one i think - had a busted up mouth anyway, so it never worked great. Now the LN 5 1/2 took its place.

[Peter Quadarella]

The Blum Tool Jointer is $255 and works beautifully out of the box. I love mine.

[David Keller NC]

"and should I upgrade the chipbreaker?

what blade to buy? (from who, carbide or plain steel?) "

Do this cheaply. That plane is an amalgamation of parts from different Stanely types (i.e., different years of production), and from what I understand, the aluminum totes were not a factory-supplied part, they were sold to the unfortunates that dropped their plane and broke the tote.

Whether or not that's true, the plane has little collector value, so I would suggest a Hock O-1 iron, and stick with the original chipbreaker. You can get hock irons cheaply at www.thebesthings.com (http://www.thebesthings.com). The O-1 iron will be easier to sharpen than an A-2. You will also need to at least test the flatness of the sole, and lap it flat if it's not in the same plane at the toe, mouth and heel. After you do this, I think you'll understand why some of us suggested the Lee-Valley or Lie-Nielsen plane - grey cast iron is really, really hard...

[Joel Goodman]

craftsmanstudio has hock blades on sale usually with free shipping. I would tune the original chipbreaker. Go with the 01 as it's cheaper.

[Rob Luter]

Stanley has a replacement blade with chipbreaker for $17.50 (http://yhst-14955502022428.stores.yahoo.net/12-325-1-02-0c-02.html) Say what you want about the quality of the Stanley blades, but I manage to get them razor sharp and they stay that way for a reasonable amount of time. The Hocks are really nice and I've installed a couple on the planes I use regularly, but I don't put enough miles on the #7 to warrant the upgrade.

My $0.02 ($0.015 after taxes)

[Alan DuBoff]

Congrats Lyndon, it was said in this thread that a sharp Stanley is a thousand times better than a LN that has been worked for an hour.

Sounds like an exceptional value once you get it ¨fettled¨.;)

[John Dykes]

Hi Alan!

While I'm not sure the point or value of your recent post, I hope you have a wonderful Christmas and spend some time with friends and family!

Lyndon, if you ship that plane to me - I've got an iron, etc - and would be happy to get it working for you.

[Lyndon Graham]

Hi Alan!

While I'm not sure the point or value of your recent post, I hope you have a wonderful Christmas and spend some time with friends and family!

Lyndon, if you ship that plane to me - I've got an iron, etc - and would be happy to get it working for you.

Wow, Kind off. I don't have it yet. I will see what I can do 1st. and thanks

[Alan DuBoff]

Hi Alan!

While I'm not sure the point or value of your recent post, I hope you have a wonderful Christmas and spend some time with friends and family!

Lyndon, if you ship that plane to me - I've got an iron, etc - and would be happy to get it working for you.
Well, I would think it would be better for Lyndon to get his own plane working. After all, in the future will he send his planes to you to be sharpened also?

Of course you don't understand the point, your earlier comments reflected that. Seems at some point Lyndon will need to learn how to take care of his own tools. It may have been your comments that sent him off to buy a plane cheaply that didn't have an iron. In some cases you get what you pay for, and this is the case with this plane...IMO.

There is no perfect tool, just like there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy...Cheers...

[Alan DuBoff]

A 100 yr old, poorly tuned, yet sharp,#7 Stanley will work 1000 times better than a brand new, finely tuned LN #7 that hasn't been sharpened in an hour.
John,

I couldn't help but think about this as I was working a piece of maple today, and in the context of this thread, I really have to wonder about this statement even more than when I first read it. The above statement is such a general statement, without much context. I know I agree with some of your points, but this to me is a statement that has little if any meaning.


Learn to sharpen.
Learn to sharpen.
Learn to sharpen.
This part I absolutely agree with, a sharp tool is better than one that is not, most any day of the week. I also advocate a sharp tool, and that people invest the time to learn how to sharpen them, all of them, including handsaws.

If I look at the plane that Lyndon bought, it does fit your description pretty good, although hard to get it "sharp" without a blade. Is it worth one's time to then go find a blade, spend the time to fettle it, and have a decent tool???? What if it gets it and there's a crack? What if there are other problems? If that is the case, I wonder if it will be such a wise investment...

As I pointed out above in the thread, if you want to compare, it seems best to compare the planes both all tuned up and sharp, and the LN is clearly a better tool in most cases. Either plane will do a decent job at what needs to be done, as long as the blade is sharp (I think we probably agree on that one point, if nothing else). Neither will do a decent job without a sharp blade, so what is the point in comparing one that is sharp and one that is not? That is where I take exception to your statement.

Speaking for myself, I have a couple Stanley planes that I wish worked as well as the few LN planes I have. I don't have a lot of LN planes, oddly, but I do admire the ones I have because they work better and offer me a better tool than the vintage Stanleys. Yes, at a price, but that's all relative as well. Cost doesn't make the tools offer any less value, LN makes quality tools period. If you judge both tools side by side, working the same wood, both tuned in tip top shape, the LN planes are a joy to use.

I have Stanley planes that have more than 1 revolution of slop in the adjuster, in fact I have one that is closer to 2 revolutions. Doesn't make it a bad plane, but it would be easier to adjust if it didn't have that slop to begin with.

That said, the majority of my bench planes are vintage Stanleys...I'm not trying to be hypocritical, I'm trying to be fair. I have a Type 11 No 8 Stanley which I use for jointing, it was refurbished by rarebear. It goes dull just like the LN planes, when used...that should be no surprise...Lyndon may have got his plane cheaper, but he'll pay with time and/or parts to get it working correctly. No amount of sharpening will do any good without a blade...;)

[Lyndon Graham]

If I look at the plane that Lyndon bought, it does fit your description pretty good, although hard to get it "sharp" without a blade. Is it worth one's time to then go find a blade, spend the time to fettle it, and have a decent tool???? What if it gets it and there's a crack? What if there are other problems? If that is the case, I wonder if it will be such a wise investment...


I understand. But when I buy something on ebay, I know that there are risk. I may save a few bucks on this purchase or I may wind up being penny wise and pound foolish. It is not a morgage we are discussing but only a dinner out. And even though I am a novice at this new hobby, I now have a new LV #4 plane and new LN low angle block plane to compare the old Stanley too. If the Stanley works, I saved a few. If it does not, then I will save a few for another day. :)

[Alan DuBoff]

I understand. But when I buy something on ebay, I know that there are risk.
Sure, and this holds true for all of us. The time and energy we put into tool acquisition is for ourselves to decide for each of us.

I will be curious to hear your opinion after you can compare all of your planes.

Try some flea markets Lyndon, you'll find better deals, but will not have the selection...but if you go to them, you will find stanley planes most likely. I've found used LN planes before, just that most folks hang on to them.

I agree with John in regards to sharpening, every craftsman should check and sharpen his tools before use. However, it holds true for most all tools in general and brand/make has nothing to do with it. It is true for Stanley planes just as much as it is for LN planes, as much as it is for old woodies...a dull edge has no conscience in regards to make/brand/style. For some reason me and John seem to get caught in the ether, probably best for me not to reply to him.

[John Dykes]

Alan - I'm an ice hockey player yet also member of the Baptist church. Those two sides war within me as to how to respond to your posts. Christian graces compel me at this moment...

As stated repeatedly, my only point was to focus on sharpening - the tool is of no importance whatsoever. Only that it provides some service in the pursuit of skill. My value here is not of skill or a deep pool of a craftsman's experience - that's what everybody else here is for.... My only value to this board is of one who has stumbled forward with minimal guidance. My value is borne from ignorance, not of education. Feel free to relish in that statement, but realize, my posts aren't meant for you... it's for those who are walking the path I've trod, the one alone searching for help. And the sage wisdom that comes from this board is so very valuable. And I too provide a service - "I hear you Lyndon. I just walked that path. I felt this, I tried that - this worked for me, and these many things didn't. I know where you are at, and this is what helped me."

Many neophytes and normites buy tools and are immediately successful. It takes no skill to cut perfectly on a Unisaw. Hand tools are not this way... The hand tool practitioner, must be patient - and must seek skill before success. I learned this the hard way. That is my experience, that is my value. I'm sorry that my words cause you so much heartache - but they aren't meant for you.

As a more practical matter, the hockey player in me invariably wins my own internal struggle. And of all things to do to me during this Holiday Season, this broke my heart:

there is no Santa Claus

If you're ever in Denver, call me up for a coffee or beer - my treat. We'll try and work out whatever differences that seem to have developed between us. Until then, the struggle within me requires that I regulate you to the killfile.

Till we meet on the ice, God Bless and Happy Holidays!

[John Dykes]

Lyndon,

It's common for folks to post an ebay auction number and ask for input. "Hey, I was looking at this (#123456789). What do you fellas think?" You may have a fear that some here would jump on to eBay to outbid you - but don't worry about that at all. As you've seen, Marcus has a great eye - and many others have forgotten more about planes than I could ever know.

That said, you've made the purchase. The focus now is getting it up and running. I'm pretty confident, with some work - you'll be very happy with it. Not only so, from my experience - those planes that require a bit extra in the beginning are always my favorites in the end...

Keep us posted on the progress. We're here for every step. And again, if you aren't satisfied, ship it to me - and I'll give it my best as well....

Best wishes -

[John Keeton]

So, the traveling John Dykes has apparently reached his KY destination and reconnected to cyberspace!!

[Douglas Brummett]

Interesting read. Nothing really that hasn't been said before. Sharpening is a skill to have. I have been honing that skill for the last 6 months.

That No7 looks like it is pretty clean. The high shipping, metal tote, and missing blade kept the bidding low and the rest of the plane looks to be in good shape. Throw a Hock iron and chip breaker on it and you will be ready to roll. If aesthetics are of concern you can get a replacement tote for minimal investment. All things considered I think you will have a nice jointer for around $150.

I think the best advice given in this thread is that the wood doesn't know what it is being planed with and a sharp blade trumps most other options.

[Bill White]

I use a Stanley #7 Frankenplane (shown below) assembled from a number of vintage parts. It was purchased at a Midwest Tool Collectors tailgate sale for the grand sum of $40.00. The japanning is about 90%, the bottom is flat, and the tote and knob are crack free. Add in the 30 minutes of quality time spent on the iron and the result is a sweet user that looks pretty good too. Considering it only gets used occasionally the cost/benefit ratio is right where I need it to be.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=85529

I'd love to have a LN for many reasons, but the money I'd spend on that will be better used on other tools that will allow me to broaden my woodworking skills. I think it was Ron Hock that said, "when it comes down to it, a plane is a blade holder". As long as the blade is sharp and held correctly, the wood doesn't know the difference between my old #7 and a brand new LN.

Got some fine lookin' "arn" there.
I'm also on the side of rehab in that I have enjoyed the process of finding, fettling, and using those older tools that I have had to understand before using. Just seems more meaningful to me. Of course I used to own and repair European motorcycles too. Had to know how to work on 'em before you could ever ride 'em.
Bill

[Mike Henderson]

To keep cost down, you can make a tote yourself if you have a bandsaw and a couple of rasps. And you could probably substitute a jig saw for the bandsaw if you had to. Making the first one will take you longer but it will be a good learning process. Cherry makes very good knobs and totes and is pretty easy to shape. Walnut can also be used, as well as a bunch of other woods.

Also, if you want to save a few dollars, buy a blade for the plane on eBay. It won't be as thick as a new Hock or LV iron but on a jointer, the old blades work well.

Mike