Failed Joint, How to repair ( with pic now)

[Craig D Peltier]

I have a table 45x96x1.75 rock maple. One one end 10" in length a glue joint failed.Finish is on it. Its a precatalyzled lacquer made by deft.The seperation is minimal, meaning the joint line looks tight, theres no sunlight.So clamping may not bring it it much.
I had thought of routing a bowtie into it but dont think that the clamp pressure will pull it in enough to make a difference when plug is in.

I cant dowel from end grain or do anything on the top.

My thoughts on repair are:

From underside drill some 1/8 holes max depth ( 1 5/8) in joint line.Inject glue. Im not sure of this procedure if it should be clamped before or after. I would also send pocket screws in each direction and putty.

Any other ideas or opinions on my idea?

Thanks

PS I will post pics of the tables in project forum.They have walnut inlays in them.Theres three tops and 2 total tables.

[Dewey Torres]

I have an idea but I will wait for your pics in the project forum.

[Frank Drew]

Craig,

Don't beat yourself up; hard maple is more prone to glue joint failure than other woods I've used.

If you can close the gap with clamp pressure, you could try to suck some glue in there with a vacuum cleaner nozzle below the joint while applying glue to the topside, pushing it in with your finger as it's sucked in. I've had success with this technique a time or two. The smeared glue on the table surface shouldn't stick to the finish, making cleanup not too difficult.

[Chris Padilla]

Why not post the pic in this thread? You shouldn't start two separate threads with the same topic.

[Pete Bradley]

What's on the end of the joint that failed? Is there a cross-grain situation that might have triggered this?

Pete

[Craig D Peltier]

Why not post the pic in this thread? You shouldn't start two separate threads with the same topic.

Theres no pic of glue joint failure.The pics would just be of finished table.I will post now.

[Craig D Peltier]

Heres pic. Its on the lower left in picture.

103775

[Craig D Peltier]

Craig,

Don't beat yourself up; hard maple is more prone to glue joint failure than other woods I've used.

If you can close the gap with clamp pressure, you could try to suck some glue in there with a vacuum cleaner nozzle below the joint while applying glue to the topside, pushing it in with your finger as it's sucked in. I've had success with this technique a time or two. The smeared glue on the table surface shouldn't stick to the finish, making cleanup not too difficult.

Its gone through majpr temperature changes here.From 70 to as low as 20 and then back to 70. Plus the driving on the frozen roads might of jarred the joint lose.In picture the joint hadnt failed totally.It was still together. After some putty on the end an clamping it together with some glue I could get in it failed enroute a few days later.

[Lee Schierer]

It sounds like the board may not have been jointed correctly and were pulled together with clamp preessure or the wood wasn't dry and te wood has dried since it was joined.

How to repair it.

The best way would be to separate the end and joint the boards before gluing it back in place. This would require at least some refinishing.

Or, pull the joint together with a permanent clamp. I don't think the routed in bow tie will hold for the long haul. Dowels also will not work and pocket screws might, but migh not work.

I would suggest using a couple of counter top draw bolts on the underside to pull the crack together and hold it permanently.
http://www.mcfeelys.com/img/zipbolt-product-photo-FSC-2600.jpg
Once the hardware is installed, draw some glue into the crack and then tighten the bolts. You can work glue into a very small crack with dental floss.

[Pete Bradley]

Looks to me like the ends are unfinished. If this is the case, you're likely to get behavior similar to checking, where the ends of the table dry (and shrink) faster than the middle.

Pete

[Chris Padilla]

Craig,

Is that walnut (?) inlay or solid? The joint line is not where I'd expect it to be.

[Craig D Peltier]

Craig,

Is that walnut (?) inlay or solid? The joint line is not where I'd expect it to be.

walnut inlay is 1/8th by three inch.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Craig,

Turners experience this all the time. Typically they rough turn green wood and then let it dry in a controlled atmosphere. Then they return it to the lathe and finish turn it.

When I have cracks in my turnings I often mix crushed instant coffee crystals with epoxy and fill the cracks. The coffee is just to color it and give it some contrast. You can thin epoxy with denatured alcohol and use it that way for thin cracks.

You might try epoxy.

[Craig D Peltier]

It sounds like the board may not have been jointed correctly and were pulled together with clamp preessure or the wood wasn't dry and te wood has dried since it was joined.

How to repair it.

The best way would be to separate the end and joint the boards before gluing it back in place. This would require at least some refinishing.

Or, pull the joint together with a permanent clamp. I don't think the routed in bow tie will hold for the long haul. Dowels also will not work and pocket screws might, but migh not work.

I would suggest using a couple of counter top draw bolts on the underside to pull the crack together and hold it permanently.
http://www.mcfeelys.com/img/zipbolt-product-photo-FSC-2600.jpg
Once the hardware is installed, draw some glue into the crack and then tighten the bolts. You can work glue into a very small crack with dental floss.

Lee that may have been the issue. The board were 9 feet an 2 inch thick when jointing.I may have taken off a tad too much on that end of one board.Im not sure.

As far as making this hole, does a forstner bit an a straight bit on a router work for this?
Thanks for tip on dental floss.

Cutting the board apart would reguire alot more than refinishing.It would include cutting a new inlay and getting the old out as well.The inlays are 45 degrees in corners. Plus trying to get that back together afterwards where inlay is to a tight fit might be real tough.Plus more C&C work etc.

Thanks

[Todd Crawford]

"As far as making this hole, does a forstner bit an a straight bit on a router work for this?
Thanks for tip on dental floss."

Yes on the forstner bit and router. That is what I have used for those types of holes anyway.

The dental floss tips works GREAT for getting the glue in!!!!

[Craig D Peltier]

"As far as making this hole, does a forstner bit an a straight bit on a router work for this?
Thanks for tip on dental floss."

Yes on the forstner bit and router. That is what I have used for those types of holes anyway.

The dental floss tips works GREAT for getting the glue in!!!!

There is alot of pressure on this type of countertop fastener.Im not sure it would hold up over time.

[Craig D Peltier]

Like to ad, If I drilled holes from the underside and injected with glue. I think it would be stronger to add 1/8th inch dowels in the holes.So its wood to glue bond without having a 1/8th glue cylinder.

[Chris Padilla]

So does clamp pressure close up the break? Assuming it does, epoxy is the way to go, I think.

Since it broke along the glue line, the glue appears to have failed. If you used white/yellow glue, that doesn't stick to itself very well whereas epoxy sticks to just about anything.

I think I'd do something like this:

PRACTICING with some epoxy (whatever you get), try warming it up in a bath of hot water to get it more fluid similar to the viscosity of water and see if you can pour it reasonably well. Some epoxies will skin over and start to dry too fast if you warm them up too much to get them more fluid.

You may wish to even spray some scrap with that finish to see how the epoxy reacts with it in terms of removal and wipe up.

In a nutshell, you want to protect the surface from squeeze out when clamp pressure is applied and when pouring the warmed, fluid epoxy into the crack from underneath (i.e. the show side is down when doing this).

You may still need to steel wool the whole surface and respray depending upon the outcome.

Does the separation appear to be getting wider or still moving? The walnut inlay appears to be over the glue line of the maple and may be saving the rest of the joint from failing...perhaps.

After (hopefully) successfully closing this gap with epoxy, you may wish to go a step further and reinforce the joint either mechanically as Lee suggested or even to put in the bowtie as you were thinking. It might help future movement.

[Warren Clemans]

What kind of glue were you using originally? Whatever it was, there's a good chance that new glue won't bond to it even if you can get it into the crack. Bob Smalser posted an excellent study on the topic here: Are Your Glue Joints Repairable? (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=21822). That leads me to think that you have two choices--a mechanical bond like the countertop clamp/screws, or a strip of wood or other filler of some sort to disguise the gap. Good luck!

[Chris Padilla]

Warren,

I guess my memory is bad as I was thinking of Bob's excellent thread.

Craig,

My idea won't work unless you can REMOVE all the old glue in the crack. Perhaps you can use a router bit to chew out as much wood as possible without breaking any show surfaces and then glue in a filler strip underneath to restrengthen the joint. I think I'd still use epoxy as it's the strongest glue out there.

[Jay Jolliffe]

Use really low air pressure & blow the glue in if you can't suck it through from the other side. Worked for me

[David G Baker]

I purchased a small table from an Amish furniture store. I had the table approximately 6 months before it stated separating at a glue joint, the separation looked similar to the one the OP has. I took it back and they gave me a replacement. The replacement table split just like the original in approximately the same length of time. I gave up and have kept the table. I have had the second table for around 4 years and the split is not any worse.

[Warren Clemans]

My idea won't work unless you can REMOVE all the old glue in the crack. Perhaps you can use a router bit to chew out as much wood as possible without breaking any show surfaces and then glue in a filler strip underneath to restrengthen the joint. I think I'd still use epoxy as it's the strongest glue out there.

That's an excellent idea--how about running a 1/4" router bit from the underneath side maybe 3/4 of the way through the table, starting an inch or so from the edge and ending where the joint separation ends. Then pull the joint closed with clamps, size a spline to fit the gap you cut with the router, and glue it in place. Good thinking, Chris.

[Steve Clardy]

Flip table top bottom side up.
Attach straight edge and use a skilsaw set to depth within a 1/4" of the top.
Cut slot past the crack length.
Make a filler strip from same material.
End of saw cut will be arc'ed, so round off end of fill strip.
Add glue to joint and try to work it clear through the crack. Air nozzle may do that. Drive in fill strip and clamp top together.

Flush off fill strip after it has dried.

[Gene Howe]

gluing the repair could be accomplished by turning itn over and applying the glue from the bottom side witha shopvac providing suction on the top. Saves on dental floss.:D

[Doug Shepard]

My first choice any time I'm trying to fill a gap is to try and get more of the same wood in there. I've never done this on anything quite as thick as your table, but I'd run the finest jewelers saw blade you can through that crack to clean all the glue out. Then get a wide iron (2-3/8") plane and start making some shavings of various thickness from an area of a board with the same color and grain. Add glue and slide them into the crack.

[Dewey Torres]

Craig,
I think Lee has the best answer... that is what I was going to post once I saw the pics.

Now for the hard part and I REALLY HOPE I AM DEAD WRONG on this one:

It's going to be a coin toss as to the stability of your table if you glued the entire length of those 1/8" deep inlays across that kind of an expanse. Your inlays are wide and will act like a steel strap. When the top expands and contacts it is likely your inlays or there in proximity will crack.

They are beautiful, don't get me wrong but this type is inlay is normally accomplished over stable substrate or can be over a solid if pencil thin and glued with scarf joints to allow movement. I once did a similar application and it never lasted a full season before it cracked and failed. It was a commission too so that made it doubly bad for me. A real heart breaker:( Time will tell. Again I hope I am wrong.

I say, fix the immediate joint and wait. We will be here to assist if needed.

[Craig D Peltier]

So does clamp pressure close up the break? Assuming it does, epoxy is the way to go, I think.

Since it broke along the glue line, the glue appears to have failed. If you used white/yellow glue, that doesn't stick to itself very well whereas epoxy sticks to just about anything.

I think I'd do something like this:

PRACTICING with some epoxy (whatever you get), try warming it up in a bath of hot water to get it more fluid similar to the viscosity of water and see if you can pour it reasonably well. Some epoxies will skin over and start to dry too fast if you warm them up too much to get them more fluid.

You may wish to even spray some scrap with that finish to see how the epoxy reacts with it in terms of removal and wipe up.

In a nutshell, you want to protect the surface from squeeze out when clamp pressure is applied and when pouring the warmed, fluid epoxy into the crack from underneath (i.e. the show side is down when doing this).

You may still need to steel wool the whole surface and respray depending upon the outcome.

Does the separation appear to be getting wider or still moving? The walnut inlay appears to be over the glue line of the maple and may be saving the rest of the joint from failing...perhaps.

After (hopefully) successfully closing this gap with epoxy, you may wish to go a step further and reinforce the joint either mechanically as Lee suggested or even to put in the bowtie as you were thinking. It might help future movement.

As long as it was here it wasnt moving.Its at clients now.
Thanks for tips, someone here said use denatured alcohol to thin epoxy?

[Craig D Peltier]

What kind of glue were you using originally? Whatever it was, there's a good chance that new glue won't bond to it even if you can get it into the crack. Bob Smalser posted an excellent study on the topic here: Are Your Glue Joints Repairable? (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=21822). That leads me to think that you have two choices--a mechanical bond like the countertop clamp/screws, or a strip of wood or other filler of some sort to disguise the gap. Good luck!

Titebond II

[Craig D Peltier]

Looks to me like the ends are unfinished. If this is the case, you're likely to get behavior similar to checking, where the ends of the table dry (and shrink) faster than the middle.

Pete

This pic just had mineral spirits on it.Its now sealed with pre catalyzed lacquer by deft.

[Craig D Peltier]

Craig,
I think Lee has the best answer... that is what I was going to post once I saw the pics.

Now for the hard part and I REALLY HOPE I AM DEAD WRONG on this one:

It's going to be a coin toss as to the stability of your table if you glued the entire length of those 1/8" deep inlays across that kind of an expanse. Your inlays are wide and will act like a steel strap. When the top expands and contacts it is likely your inlays or there in proximity will crack.

They are beautiful, don't get me wrong but this type is inlay is normally accomplished over stable substrate or can be over a solid if pencil thin and glued with scarf joints to allow movement. I once did a similar application and it never lasted a full season before it cracked and failed. It was a commission too so that made it doubly bad for me. A real heart breaker:( Time will tell. Again I hope I am wrong.

I say, fix the immediate joint and wait. We will be here to assist if needed.

Well its done, I hope not. Generally the weather around here lacks all humidity and stays under 85 and above 32 in winter. Alot of moist air, not usually dry , with the exceptions in the winter.

[Craig D Peltier]

Well I like all the ideas. What I have liked best so far is routing out a mortise 3/4 wide and filling with like wood. Like a patch.

My question on Lees post: Are countertop clamp hardware strong enough
to hold a 1.75 thick maple top together an keep it there?

Again, Thanks all.

[Dewey Torres]

Well I like all the ideas. What I have liked best so far is routing out a mortise 3/4 wide and filling with like wood. Like a patch.

My question on Lees post: Are countertop clamp hardware strong enough
to hold a 1.75 thick maple top together an keep it there?

Again, Thanks all.

Heck yes they are. Those things are made to draw thick counter tops together. Yes they are very very strong.

[Lee Schierer]

Lee that may have been the issue. The board were 9 feet an 2 inch thick when jointing.I may have taken off a tad too much on that end of one board.Im not sure.

As far as making this hole, does a forstner bit an a straight bit on a router work for this?
Thanks for tip on dental floss.

Cutting the board apart would reguire alot more than refinishing.It would include cutting a new inlay and getting the old out as well.The inlays are 45 degrees in corners. Plus trying to get that back together afterwards where inlay is to a tight fit might be real tough.Plus more C&C work etc.

Thanks
I have only used similar clamps when installing counter tops and they are plenty strong. I imagine they come with instructions. I found them at McFeeleys site. You could ask them what tools are needed.

Generally it is a good idea to check fit all boards prior to glue up. If you see gaps, work on the jointing.