Backlit signs

[Albert Nix]

I have a chance at a new customer but he is looking for something that I have not tried yet. He wants a backlit sign to hang in a window that will show good day and night. It will be about 6 foot long and 20 or so inches high. I can cut letters with the laser or I could use vinyl. I would like to use LEDs. I would like to hear from some of you that have built lighted signs before I jump in over my head. What works well for you?
Thanks
Al

[Myk Rian]

Lexan/acrylic and routed design. Lights are put on the edges of the sign.

[Joe Pelonio]

I have done many of those, and normally will buy the box with translucent white acrylic, then add my own vinyl or laser cut letters to it. If you make the electrical part yourself and are not a licensed contractor with UL approved labels you could have liability issues. It may be hard to find that size as a stock item, though.

http://www.signdisplay.biz/fullpage.asp?img=708D_7_full

[Albert Nix]

Thanks for the tip about using a contrator. I cna do the wiring and I can get a contractor to check and sign off on the wiring without a problem. Do you like using florecent lights or LEDs?
Al

[Joe Pelonio]

For a backlit sign fluorescents give a more even light to the background, though led's are more economical to run over time. Another option is to black out the background except for the letters and use LED's only behind them, for a neon look.

[Albert Nix]

Joe I like the idea of blacking out everything but the letters. I thought about doing that. I guess the best thing to use is clear plex and paint the back side black or in my dark blue right? If I do that then I guess the letters would need to be on the back side too. What kind of vinyl do you use. The supplier that is close to me recommends 8500 oracal translucent. Will the translucent show up good in the day time as well. He wants to use yellow letters with a dark blue or black back ground which normally shows well but I have not tried it with translucent so I was not sure.
Thanks for the help
Al

[Rodne Gold]

Whats the point of backlighting a black background with yellow letters , it would be a better bet and cheaper to can all the lightbox stuff , make the sign out of straight pex and just have a few spot/flood lights shining on it at night.
When we do backlit , we buy the box all wired and made up , even custom sizes, and we just digitally print on white vinyl or better still , specialised frontlit/backlit material that looks great whether front or backlit (You often have colour matching issues when trying to make the thing look the same illuminated vs unilluminated)
We are using our large format and apply the output to the opal perspex face of the lightbox. We do make our own lightboxes out of pex for interior smaller signs , but for exterior we just buy in a box. This type of signage is problematic , you need to install , build , wire and maintain it......not worth the hassle unless you in the signage business

[Joe Pelonio]

Most of the time the way I do that is to plotter cut the letters out of the dark, opaque vinyl, on the front of the clear plex. Then apply translucent
vinyl just covering the letters, on the back. That does not show up very well when off, especially if inside a storefront window. For that I will apply cut the translucent vinyl letters contoured to go slightly over the edges of the dark opaque vinyl on the front of the plex. Another option is the latter but using translucent acrylic for the letters on the front. Oracal is fine.

[Rodne Gold]

Joe , why don you use ordinary vinyl.....backlights just as well if not better than transluscents and looks good frontlit if off

[Albert Nix]

Joe what would you use to mount acrylic letters to the outside of plex that would not show? Would glue between the translucent letters and the facing show? I was thinking about lighting the whole inside of the box but it looks like I could box in the words using some white alum and attaching the them to the back panel and only lite behind the letters and it would cut down on lights and help keep down wash out around the edges of the letters. What do you think?
Al

[Albert Nix]

Thanks Rodne ! I am just tring to figure away to sell the sign and not send him down the road. He wants the sign to be backlit and it would be real hard to aim lights at it where it will be mounted.
Thanks Al

[Joe Pelonio]

Joe , why don you use ordinary vinyl.....backlights just as well if not better than transluscents and looks good frontlit if off
Maybe the brand you use? I have experimented with that and find the premium vinyl does not let nearly as much light through.

[Joe Pelonio]

Joe what would you use to mount acrylic letters to the outside of plex that would not show? Would glue between the translucent letters and the facing show? I was thinking about lighting the whole inside of the box but it looks like I could box in the words using some white alum and attaching the them to the back panel and only lite behind the letters and it would cut down on lights and help keep down wash out around the edges of the letters. What do you think?
Al

You have a good idea there.

Acrylic cement like Weld-on is clear, but avoid getting it onto the vinyl.

I'd apply a clear laminating film like 3M 467MP on the back before cutting the letters. A cool, though time consuming option is to contour the letters about 1/8-1/4" larger and pin/screw with 1/8" spacers so they float above the background, and they not only light up in color but show light around the edges. You would have to space the letters farther apart to allow for this.

It will be hard but I'll try to find a picture I had of one I did a few years ago.

[Joe Pelonio]

It will be hard but I'll try to find a picture I had of one I did a few years ago.
I never quoted myself before. :D

I didn't find the picture of the sign, but here's the mockup I did for a sample when I quoted it. It's actually a clear acrylic letter with translucent vinyl on it so the edges light up too. I just held it in front of a desk lamp for the picture.

[Albert Nix]

You are giving me all kind of neat ideas now ha. I need to do some market research and try to find out what kind of money folks expect to pay for a sign this size. Then I would have a better idea of time and material I can play around with. This will be a first for me so I know that time be way out in left field. Lets say I used LEDs and acrilyc letters. I can buy alum locally and get it bent to build the box out off or order extruded components but for an 80" by 20" kit they want $136 plus about $80 frieght and the LEDs will run about $300. Not discounting the pex I would have left over I would have close to 6 or 7 hundred bucks in it. What do you think a sign like that would sell for in most places?

[Joe Pelonio]

I would double all materials, then add your normal labor rate for the time plus your overhead and see what it comes out. I doubt I'd do anything that size for less than $1,200. Keep in mind that a simple 4'x8' plywood sign with vinyl lettering goes for $500-$1,000 these days.

I have had boxes built with fluorescent tubes inside where I just did the face
and it cost me over $700 wholesale.

On the other hand, there are internet sites where you can order a custom made neon sign for about $600, 13"x32". Probably made in China.

Do a google on custom neon pricing or something like that. I have to go do an installation now. Good luck.

[Albert Nix]

Yeah I was thinking around the same price range. If I use leds with acrilyc letters how far from the face should the lights be?
Thank for all the input
Al

[Darren Null]

If you buy the box, get the front in glass, spray paint the inside (dark blue); then just laser the paint off for your sign (remembering, or course, to mirror the image. Job done, and no messing with acrylic needed.

[Rodne Gold]

Darren , as far as I see it , the face is like 80" x 20" , thats a real big piece to put into a laser.
At the end of it all , being blunt , this is a very big and expensive lightbox for someone with no experience of doing or making them to attempt , apart from which it is not an ideal laser application. This is , IMHO , a case of everything being a nail when you have a hammer. Lightboxes are ususally extremely competitive in pricing , at least in ourt side of the world , cos every tom dick and harry that has a digital large format printer does em...
Maybe you might be chasing someone down the road to have this made elsewhere , but if your customer finds out that you were a LOT more expensive than the guy down the road and don't do as good or as professional a job , you will chase the customer away entirely. We do 100's of these for point of sale or other purposes and buy the extrusions and corners etc and can undercut pricing big time from co's that do ones and 2's of these.
I dont want to rain on anyones parade , but have had a lot of experience in the signage field and it's not any different cos I am in South Africa. Rather pass the job on to a reputable signage co , ask em to pass laser jobs to you or ask for 10-15% consideration ... rather use the time you would spend on this for more profitable pursuits.
Joe , any 2mil cast vinyl will transmit almost as well as transluscent and will avoid issues like hotspots as well as being cheaper. We use Avery , Starrex , oracal , whatever for this...
Where exactly is this sign gonna go? If its indoors , you can use off the shelf flourescent fittings for lighting and make a cosmetic casing , if its outdoors , it has to be weather sealed , properly earthed and probably needs council planning......

[Albert Nix]

Ouch!! Rod you may be right but and that is why I am doing the research. I have gotten a lot of helpful imformation and still gathering. I would tell the customer up front that he should check with a local sign shop to get a price explaining that they may have a better source for materials than I do. But if he still wants me to do it at the price that I quote him I will build a small scale prototype before jumping in to deep. You would be surprised at what folks can do given enough reliable information. Joe has been very open and willing to help and that take a lot out of the learning curve. Even if I send this guy down the road I will have learned a lot. As time goes on maybe I will be able to start helping more folks. If it was not for sites like this learning this trade would be a bear.
Thanks to all on this site and have a safe holiday:
Al

[Darren Null]

You might also consider cold-cathode tubes instead of LED...they are little 12V cold neon tubes- the sort that light up your laptop display. Mostly 12" long, they often come in sets of 2, so you're lighting up 24" per set. Better light output, but less lifetime than LED; but easy enough to swap out when the time comes if you design things that way.

[Albert Nix]

Thanks Darren. Those are new to me. I will do a google and see what I can learn about them and try to find a source.
Al

[Albert Nix]

Judging from the folks looking at this post I assume there is a lot of interest in this subject. May I am not the only one that will get something out of it.