Wet tools!!

[Jim Kappel]

Minnesotan here. Trying to do some work in the garage usually means cranking up the propane heater during these chilly winter months. Past few days I ended up with a very wet jointer bed and table saw. INSTANT rust and a serious pain in the arse.

Question is, what do I do to cut down on the condensation or rust? Obviously it's gonna happen but thought maybe someone out there had an idea how I can get around some of it. Is there a way to treat the surfaces to cut down on it?

[Gary Breckenridge]

Use some of the car wax that you normally use on your Rolls Royce on all unpainted cast iron tool surfaces. It won't cure the problem with moisture in the air but it will help with the rusting.:cool:

[John Keeton]

Propane is a combustion heat and the byproduct is moisture. If you can get some other form of heat, that would go a long way toward helping the problem. Hope you can get them cleaned up OK. I had a similar problem related to a really quick damp front that came through one day last year when I had my shop door open. Fortunately, I was there when it happened. Everything was dripping wet. Took about two hours to get everything dry and cleaned up.

[Myk Rian]

Use some of the car wax that you normally use on your Rolls Royce on all unpainted cast iron tool surfaces. It won't cure the problem with moisture in the air but it will help with the rusting.:cool:
No. Car wax has silicone. That's the last thing you want on your wood.
Use furniture wax.

[Mike Heidrick]

Furniture wax - Johnsons paste wax specifically is what I use. I buy it at Lowes.

[David Keller NC]

John is correct. All organic chemicals (including propane) when burned primarily give off CO2 and water vapor. Because the machine surfaces are cold, you'll get instant condensation. Such a rapid swing in humidity isn't good for your lumber or work in progress, either.

One relatively inexpensive solution is an electric oil heater, though it will take longer to warm your garage to working temperature. These units are totally sealed and do not put water vapor into the air. A kerosene heater, by the way, will do the same thing as the propane heater.

[Jim Kappel]

Wow. Thanks for the tips. I never knew the huge condensation problem propane created. Man, it was amazing to see. I'd fire it up and within 15 minutes the tools were literally sweating! Very frustrating!

I just thought of something and want your advice. How about adding a few electric baseboards. Would that help? I could flip them on or off as I need them. Isn't that a pretty efficient source (electricity versus a gas source)? I'm not worried about how long it takes to heat up but rather saving the tools and limiting the condensation.

Thoughts?

[Myk Rian]

Even though I keep my iron surfaces well waxed, (furniture wax) hurricane Ike brought a ton of moisture to Michigan. I had surface rust overnight.
I used a wire wheel in my drill to remove it, and reapplied the wax. 3 thick coats of it. WD40 works great too, but I didn't have any at the time.

[Tom Esh]

Boeshield T9 is one of the better protectants. However you might also want to think about reducing condensation to begin with. Unvented propane heaters are notorious for raisling humidity because the main by-product of propane combustion is water vapor. That combined with all that cold cast iron is a formula for rust. So in addition to applying Boeshield, paste wax, or some other protectant, some suggtestions:
Cover your cast iron tools with old bedsheets or blankets.
Consider replacing the propane unit with an electric or a real furnace (i.e. with a heat exchanger).
Limit the amplitude of those thermal cycles. With the presence of humidity, letting the shop go totally cold just invites another condensation cycle. This can be a problem in most climates with just normal humidity levels. I try not to let my shop go below about 60 deg.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Propane is a combustion heat and the byproduct is moisture. If you can get some other form of heat, that would go a long way toward helping the problem. Hope you can get them cleaned up OK. I had a similar problem related to a really quick damp front that came through one day last year when I had my shop door open. Fortunately, I was there when it happened. Everything was dripping wet. Took about two hours to get everything dry and cleaned up.

Not so sure thats what caused it John. Unless the propane heater vents directly back into the shop, which sounds like a really bad idea, I'd bet the moisture is condensation. Probably something to do with now warmer air being able to hold more moisture, making contact with cold iron surfaces, which are below the dew point.

Could be wrong, but irreguardless, the tools need protected. The best fix is to maintain a more constant temperature. Insulation, and some sort of climate control works wonders.

[Ron Bontz]

I don't know how well your shop is insulated. But my first outside shop was a 30 x 40 ft. x 10ft. garage. I finished it out and insulated it. I was able to keep it reasonable with three of those electric radiant heaters. The ones that look like little radiators. They helped to prevent condensation in the first place. Good luck.:)

[John Keeton]

Jim, I have baseboard heat in my shop and it works fine. However, if I were doing it again, I would combine some of the overhead radiant heaters. You see them in places that are open to a lot of air exchange - lumber yards, etc. I think I could work in a cooler environment with that type of heat.

[Heather Thompson]

Jim,

When I first started out it was with a kerosene heater, suffered the same raining effect, today I have a very well insullated shop with a 220 volt heater. When I leave the shop at the end of the day I turn the heat down (57-60), in the morning it only takes a few minutes to be back up to 70, also running the tablesaw, jointer/planer, bandsaw with the cyclone really moves the air and keeps it very pleasant. Get rid of the propane, make sure you are well insullated and your woodwork will be muck more enjoyable.

Heather

[Bryan Cowing]

Seems this was talked about somewhere else , and it was mentioned a fan left running all the time kept the tools rust free.

[Paul Ryan]

Jim,


I'm with you in MN right now it is -5 and getting colder. It is also blowing like mad. I think the proplem you are having is more the fact that the cast iron and by that mater the whole shop was so cold and then you warmed it up with propane. I think the water you found was more a matter of condensation than a by product of the propane burning. The propane burning will give off some mosture but not the amount you are talking about. I think the real soulution is to keep the shop at a more constant temp, keep the air moving around, and protect the tools. I use the past wax when the tools are going to be down for awhile and bostik when they are being used regularly. My shop is unheated so I dont face the mosture problems right now. I have to wait to work until it warms up alittle. I usually will wait until 15 and warmer. I dont mind working then, if I keep moving I dont get cold. I have the biggest problems in the spring when it is warm out side and still snow on the ground or roof. It creates lots of condensation issues. Tools are still cold and the air is warm. That is the biggest reason I opted for the granite table saw.

Good Luck

[David Keller NC]

"I think the proplem you are having is more the fact that the cast iron and by that mater the whole shop was so cold and then you warmed it up with propane. I think the water you found was more a matter of condensation than a by product of the propane burning. The propane burning will give off some mosture but not the amount you are talking about."

From the standpoint of someone that has a couple of Chemical Engineering degrees, I can assure you that open-flame combustion of any organic fuel (propane, kerosene are common ones) will dump a huge amount of water vapor in the air. Moreover, if you heat the air in the garage by an indirect or non-combustion source, the relative humidity will drop like a rock, usually far, far below the condensation point at above 50 degrees or so.

Propane heaters and kerosene wick-type heaters are great things to have in a garage where you want to change the oil in the car, but definitely not so good for a Woodworker's shop.

From the standpoint of energy efficiency, electric resistive heat is nearly at the bottom of the scale. That would include baseboard and overhead, radiative-type heaters. Slightly more efficient are forced-air electric resistive heaters. Enclosed-oil type electric heaters are about as efficient as forced-air electric resistive heaters. Moving up the scale, electric heat pumps are considerably more efficient than the resistive types, though considerably more in initial outlay than a resistive heater.

Finally, currently one of the most efficient heat sources you can buy is a condensing natural gas furnace. Not only is the natural gas combustion very efficient (these units, by the way, don't vent the combustion directly to the heated space, so they don't contribute to increased humidity), but the unit uses a small heat pump to remove the heat of condensation of the water vapor in the combustion gases, and re-cycles that heat back to the heated space. They're nearly 95% efficient, but fairly expensive for the installation - I think I'd only do something like that if I had a very well insulated space that was going to be my permanent shop.

[Wade Lippman]

I left my lathe in an unheated garage one winter and it rusted. Not badly, but enough.
So there is certainly more to it than either heat or propane, since I didn't have either.

The cars bringing moisture and salt in can't be good.

I moved enough of my wood to the garage so I now have room in the basement for my lathe. No rust!

[Steve Leverich]

Propane produces a LOT of water - from this document

http://www.engr.uga.edu/service/extension/ventilation/tips/2001/vol13n2.pdf

"burning one gallon of propane requires 850 cubic feet of air and
produces 108 cubic feet of carbon dioxide and 0.8 gallons of water."

I have one of the "jet engine" type propane heaters but stopped using it in the shop for just that reason.

Now, I keep individual 100 watt bulbs up inside major power tools so they stay warm, will eventually change these to hard-wired with "rough service" bulbs so they can stay put.

I also modified a dead LARGE upright freezer into a "warm box" by running a power cord thru the drain and into a "keyless" light socket and box, installed a 50 watt bulb, drilled a 3/8" hole in the top of the freezer (warm air/moisture escape) and keep all the measurement, router accessories, saw blades, planes, chisels, etc, in that. Works really well, it's 32 degrees here right now and the box is about 75 degrees inside and DRY and dust free.

To keep the chill off the shop itself I use a couple small quartz heaters spread out.

I have another dead reefer that's slated for the same treatment, running out of room in the first one... Steve

[Larry Edgerton]

Jim, I have baseboard heat in my shop and it works fine. However, if I were doing it again, I would combine some of the overhead radiant heaters. You see them in places that are open to a lot of air exchange - lumber yards, etc. I think I could work in a cooler environment with that type of heat.

John, if you are talking about the radiant tube heaters, don't. I had a couple in my last shop and they were awesome to work under, economical, and not all that expensive to buy, but....

They would warp a board in 10 minutes! I really got tired of setting everything up so that wood was never under the heaters. If you left it 10 minutes under the heat it would be so cupped that you couldn't fit it in a rabbit until you turned it over and heated the other side for 5 minutes, but then you would get busy and ........

I had 10 foot ceilings in that shop. They were great for heating you lunch though. Put a sandwich in tinfoil on a ladder and in five minutes it was toasted golden brown!

I would use them in a finish room to speed curing. There would be no open flame in the room, and they cure finishes fast.

Oh yea, propane. When a house is drywalled we use propane heaters to keep it from freezing, but it will not dry without dehumidifiers in the house as the propane adds so much water to the air. Even in a dry house, when you turn on a propane heater the windows will almost instantly bead up on the inside. You need to vent somehow, or go electric as suggested.

[Tom Esh]

From the standpoint of energy efficiency, electric resistive heat is nearly at the bottom of the scale

I think you're confusing efficiency with how well or evenly they distribute the heat within a space. Essentially all types of electric heaters are 100% efficient. Even the tiny amount that escapes as accoustical energy (fan noise) or light (element glow) is converted to heat as soon as it's absorbed by something.

[Steven Hardy]

Besides the various suggestions of covering with oil shields,waxes etc...the best thing you can do is to slow down the heat up cycle in your shop and cover your tools with an old blanket while it is heating up.I would allow at least two hours of constant temperature before uncovering.

[John Keeton]

No doubt Jim's original post had more to do with the propane heater and the moisture vapor produced.

But, on the expanded topic, the only times that I have had difficulty with condensation are when I have allowed warm, moist air to enter my shop after a cold spell and my tools are cold.

My shop is well insulated and tight. In the winter, I do not let outside air in unless I have heated the shop. I keep my tools waxed and rarely have an issue with rust.

It seems that air exchanges would be difficult to control in a garage shop, and I think that is a real problem for most in that situation.

On the topic of baseboard heat - it certainly is not the cheapest, but I am a hobbiest, and it works well for me. I can heat my shop to 55 deg (a comfortable temperature to work in for me) within about 30 minutes. It will hold that heat for several hours - possibly overnite if it doesn't get too cold.

Were I to use my shop on a daily basis my choice would be a wall mount heat pump - although I would love to have a wood stove. It just seems fitting!

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I doubt that propane caused the problem. Even though its primary combustion bi-product is water vapor, when you heat air that is very cold, its relative humidity drops like a rock and becomes very dry. The humidity in the propane would actually make things more comfortable for short periods but is very unhealthly due to other dangerous bi-products that are present.

My guess is that your garage is kept cold most of the time. Therefore, when a warm, moist winter day comes along that is common in early and late winter, all that cold iron is like a glass of sweaty ice tea on a summer day.

The best defense against condensation:
- Keep your garage as sealed as possible (i.e., a good garage door gasket),
- Consider electric heat with a minimum setting around 50 degrees when you are not there,
- Add insulation/vapor barrier if possible, apply a good quality garage floor sealer,
- Paste wax what you can, and cover with a cotton drop cloth what you can't.

Keeping it warmer is the primary goal.

Sorry, it's not an easy fix.

-Jeff :)

[Jim Kappel]

Thanks folks! Although I only get into the garage a few times a month at most, this information will go a long way in helping me.

I am planning to tighten things up in the attic, as insulation is still needed in most of the garage ceiling. The garage doors are also not insulated. The only fix I have for that, short of new expensive doors, is to put pink styrofoam insulation in them and hope that helps. I'm also thinking of going with a Modine Hot Dawg natural gas heater. I've got natural gas in the house so that's the easiest and probably cheapest fix for me.

[David Keller NC]

"Essentially all types of electric heaters are 100% efficient. Even the tiny amount that escapes as accoustical energy (fan noise) or light (element glow) is converted to heat as soon as it's absorbed by something."

This is actually not correct. The reason is that for an electric resistive heater, the amount of power that flows through the circuit is determined by the voltage and the resistance through the circuit. The electric heater would, in theory be nearly 100% efficient if the resistance was infinite, because all of the energy flowing through the circuit would be dissapated as heat. However, virtually no current would flow through such a system. Because the resistance (technically, impedance for an AC circuit, but for the sake of simplicity, let's just stick with resistance) must be at some reasonable level to have power flow through the circuit, a fair amount of the energy is routed out the neutral wire back to the source (the circuit box, and eventually, the grounding rod outside the house).

It's for this reason that electrical resistive heat is not the choice for a heat exchanger in a whole house HVAC system - they use a much more complex heat pump to do the heating because in most locales it's more energy efficient. Electrical resistive heat is, however, very effective at putting out very high heat output per unit time, and they're often installed as auxillary heat in heat-pump based HVAC systems to boost the output on very cold days, and when the demand for heat is high (when the house is very cold).

[John Callahan]

Jim, as previous posters have mentioned, moisture is a byproduct of combustion ......... see it all time in winter in new construction with natural gas, kerosene, and propane fired space heaters-windows sweating etc. Long term, if it isn't already, insulating the garage is a good place to start. Might be enough to get by with a 120v electric space heater or two. Gas (propane or natural gas)- at the very least I'd want a vented unit so the exhaust gases (and moisture) exit to the outside. Better still in a dusty shop environment would be a vented gas unit with a sealed/separated combustion chamber that takes in outside combustion air.

[Jim Kappel]

The Modine Hot Dawg has two options with both being vented outside of course. One has the separate combustion but runs about $1400. The cheaper model is $550.

[Curt Harms]

but there's an (questionable efficiency) fix available--used/garage sale dehumidifier. Buying propane then buying electricity to remove the combustion byproduct isn't elegant but the initial investment could be pretty reasonable. Just another thought.


Curt

[John Callahan]

How big a unit (BTU's)? The price for the HDS (separate combustion) unit seems a bit high. I've not dealt with them but DJ's Online Modine prices are as good as I've seen- $949 shipped for the HDS 45 45,000 BTU unit. You'll have to add sales tax (they're a MN company) and you'll need the vent kit and thermostat. Might be worth a look.

[Jim Kappel]

I was quoting the HDS60 stainless steel. The normal HDS60 is $1158.

[Paul Ryan]

Jim,

Today I am experience the problems with wet tools that you were experiencing. Except I dont have the propane heat going in my shop. Come to think of it my shop is unheated. But my tools are soaked. Today it is 42 degrees, but the tools are much colder than that. As you know the last few weeks it has been pretty cold here. Today it seems like a heat wave. So I believe that the problem that you had when this post was orignally written, was not your propane heat. But the warm are combined with cold tools. Not the water put into the air by the propane heat.

[Robert foster]

Jim It depends on whether your propane heater is vented properly or not. Burning propane produces C02 and water vapor in addition to heat and other substances. When I heated my shop with unvented propane heat not only was there more moisture in the air but it also burned up part of the oxygen in the air. After a while I would even get light headed. Since I switched to a properly vented propane furnace with flue When I heat the shop the humidity decreases as warm air can hold more water than cold air. That is how we get rain etc. Warm moist air rises until it cools to the dewpoint, condenses and precipitates. In the shop the Cast Iron and any other cold metal cools the moist air around it and therefore humidity (water) condenses on the cold metal. Just like a cold glass becomes wet in the moist air of summertime.
Actually you don't even need to add moisture in the shop if warmer moist air is allowed to come into the shop. In my unheated hanger when a warm front moves through and the hanger and airplane is still cold humidity (water) condences all over the place. same theory.
Hope this helps.

Bob

[Gene E Miller]

Greetings & Salutations,

In reading all the posts under this thread I don't know if I overlooked one or maybe it just wasn't mentioned but no one has said anything about a propane infrared heater.

I have my shop insulated well and use a propane in infrared heater that can be adjusted from 3000 BTU up to 25,000 BTU with a blower that comes on when the heat has built up to a sufficient temp. If I get the shop up to around 60 - 65 which is comfortable for me to work in I can shut the heater off at night and even when the temps go into the teens my shop temp will not be below the mid 40's by morning. I can then fire up the heater on the lowest setting and within 15 or 20 minutes it is comfortable for me to work in shirt sleeves.

I usually put a coat of Johnson Paste Wax on all my table surfaces about once a week and if I think I am not going to be working in the shop for several days I apply a couple of thick coats and wait to buff it off until I come back in to work.

Using this method has pretty much solved my moisture problems which were pretty bad until I switched from an open flame heater to the infrared.

BTW the infrared does not have to be vented to the outside and being in Eastern Arkansas I am able to maintain my shop condition on about 100 gal of propane for the season. I usually start to heat off and on in mid October and am able to shut it off completely by March or April at the latest.

If I remember right I got this heater from Northern Tool Supply on sale for less than $100.00 and I have it hung on the wall about 18 inches off the ground. Has done an excellent job for me for 3 yrs now.

Gene

[Jason White]

I use a portable "torpedo"-type propane heater in my uninsulated one-car garage from time to time. I usually crack a window to let out combustion products and water vapor. Not the most efficient (or safe) way to heat a shop, but it is what it is.

Jason


Minnesotan here. Trying to do some work in the garage usually means cranking up the propane heater during these chilly winter months. Past few days I ended up with a very wet jointer bed and table saw. INSTANT rust and a serious pain in the arse.

Question is, what do I do to cut down on the condensation or rust? Obviously it's gonna happen but thought maybe someone out there had an idea how I can get around some of it. Is there a way to treat the surfaces to cut down on it?

[Kent E. Matthew]

Nice to hear some others are having the same problem I am. My shop is a metal building, uninsulated, and unheated. Condensation is a serious problem. I just put a Delta DJ-15 in there. That thing rusted right away. I am trying to come up with some sort of machine cover.

[Jason White]

I have one of these and it works pretty well....

http://www.htcproductsinc.com/tsmc.html


Nice to hear some others are having the same problem I am. My shop is a metal building, uninsulated, and unheated. Condensation is a serious problem. I just put a Delta DJ-15 in there. That thing rusted right away. I am trying to come up with some sort of machine cover.

[harry strasil]

FWIW ramblings.

WD-40 and CRC sprays are basically moisture removers and sprayed on wet machine tool surfaces then wiped off immediately effectively remove moisture accumulation.

Breathable machine covers, (cotton sheets, light blankets and such let the machine surface breath), plastic tarps and other closed surface covers collect moisture underneath as it cannot escape.

I just put a new 95% efficient furnace with central air in my house, my wwing shop is in the basement and I tapped into 3 existing ducts with 3 inch vent pipe for heating the basement, it was not enough so I invested in a high efficiency electric Quartz Infrared Space Heater which uses the humidity in the air to heat the space evenly, what a world of difference. I also have the old style metal tilting basement windows, so I made some internal storm windows frames out of some salvaged lumber from the resource collection and covered them with a double layer of painters plastic drop cloth and wedged them into place with some of that yellow pipe insulation wrap stapled around the outside so it will conform to the uneven mortared opening. A world of difference.

One old friend now gone, had all Powermatic tools and he kept them covered with cheap electric blankets set on low to ward off any moisture that might get to them when not in use.

[Tom Leasure]

Guy's I really don't want to offend anybody or start a fire here but why would anybody use any kind of unvented furnace or hetaer of any kind of an enclosed area ?? It's the same thing as sticking your head in a working oven.
If your furnace in your home would break the heat exchanger & allow CO2 into your home I know you would replace it in a heart beat - so why do it in your shop ???
What I don't understand is, with the expense of the tooling we are buying wouldn't it be better to invest in your shop first ??
I had the same problem with condensation in my pole barn shop & got really tired of my tools turning into junk in front of my eyes so - I insulated, installed a vented furnace & installed a dehumidifer as well - Expensive ?? Yes but now my investment stays rust free
I'm not trying to preach here - My main concern is for my fellow creekers - I know what CO2 can do to a human body - I am a HVA/C contractor
Please guy's be careful with those unvented heaters
Tom

[Jason White]

It's all money, Tom. We can't all afford well-insulated, properly-heated shops. Many of us use basements, sheds, garages, or "whatever" we have to do our woodworking projects. Also, speaking for myself, I'm only out there once or twice a week doing projects so it's hard to justify the cost of a dedicated shop heater with proper venting.

Jason


Guy's I really don't want to offend anybody or start a fire here but why would anybody use any kind of unvented furnace or hetaer of any kind of an enclosed area ?? It's the same thing as sticking your head in a working oven.
If your furnace in your home would break the heat exchanger & allow CO2 into your home I know you would replace it in a heart beat - so why do it in your shop ???
What I don't understand is, with the expense of the tooling we are buying wouldn't it be better to invest in your shop first ??
I had the same problem with condensation in my pole barn shop & got really tired of my tools turning into junk in front of my eyes so - I insulated, installed a vented furnace & installed a dehumidifer as well - Expensive ?? Yes but now my investment stays rust free
I'm not trying to preach here - My main concern is for my fellow creekers - I know what CO2 can do to a human body - I am a HVA/C contractor
Please guy's be careful with those unvented heaters
Tom

[Kent E. Matthew]

Jason thanks for the tip. I will pick up a couple.

[Tom Leasure]

Jason,
I know it all breaks down to bucks. I think you would agree with me, for what we have to pay for any decent power tool anymore you can make a lot of improvement's (insulation, electric heaters, etc.) in a shop.
Knowing what I know about CO2 and reading about guy's useing these things - I get a knot in my stomach




It's all money, Tom. We can't all afford well-insulated, properly-heated shops. Many of us use basements, sheds, garages, or "whatever" we have to do our woodworking projects. Also, speaking for myself, I'm only out there once or twice a week doing projects so it's hard to justify the cost of a dedicated shop heater with proper venting.

Jason

[Jason White]

I don't disagree with you at all.

However, knowing that people will use them anyway (myself included), let's at least sound the alarm about carbon monoxide poisoning and warn people to only use these types of heaters in well-ventilated areas, far away from any combustible materials. Portable heaters like these are intended for "temporary" use on construction sites, etc. People should use them with that fact in mind.

I fully intend to insulate and install properly-vented heating in my shop, but it'll take another year or two for me to scrape enough money together to get it done. Until then, I'll have to settle for occasionally using a portable heater with a little bit of common sense.

JW


Jason,
I know it all breaks down to bucks. I think you would agree with me, for what we have to pay for any decent power tool anymore you can make a lot of improvement's (insulation, electric heaters, etc.) in a shop.
Knowing what I know about CO2 and reading about guy's useing these things - I get a knot in my stomach