Frank Klausz dovetails

[John Grossi]

Just finished watching Klausz's video, "dovetailing a drawer". I took good notes, rewatched sections numerous times, and feel ready to do this. First problem, I do not own any of the tools needed. It looks like a 16 tooth per inch dovetail backsaw, a marking gauge, a smoothing plane, and a butt chisel. Currently I will be doing this for some personal projects and am not sure how much money I want to invest. Any suggestions on how much I need to budget to get perhaps mid-range tools, (both in quality and price), would be appreciated. Thank you, John

[Brian Sullivan]

You can buy inexpensive tools, but you'll need to tune them up, or you can buy more expensive tools that come practicaly ready to use.

Frank Klausz has a great video on hand tools where he shows you how to tune and sharpen an old stanley #4, a inexpensive backsaw, and blue marples (now Irwin) chisel. It was worth the price for me.

Here's what I would recommend:

Dovetail saw - inexpensive: Crown tools gent's saw. The saw needs to be have most of the set removed, and it should be jointed and sharpenned before it peforms well. More expensive, but ready to use: Veritas dovetail saw.

Plane: inexpensive: Old Stanley #4. Expensive but worth it - Veritas or Lie Neilson plane.

Chisel: set of Irwin chisels.

There is another recent thread on stuff to sharpen a block plane.

Marking gauge - I like the Veritas gauge, but I think any one would do.

[Michael Sobik]

I have a set of the Irwin chisels. They work fine for dovetailing, but need to be sharpened pretty frequently. The first time you flatten/sharpen them will take some time, as they're a little rough.

You can probably skip the smooth plane for now if you're just experimenting.

Buy a decent dovetail saw. So much of the joint depends on straight clean cuts, that having a nice saw really makes a difference.

Really, you only need a some chisels and a saw to get started. They practice, practice, and practice some more. Along the way you'll figure out what more you may want or need.

[Steve Hamlin]

John
Note that as you are scoring across the grain, unless you opt for a Veritas/Titemark style wheel gauge, what you'll need is a cutting/slitting gauge rather than an undoctored marking gauge.
Cheers
Steve

[Don Dorn]

I also use Franks method both on tools and drawers. The fact that he uses 1/2 pine for drawers certainly helps you learn, because it cuts so easily. I recommend using it, or poplar for learning. Try a single first and get it to fit, then two, then three and so on.

It's a skill worth the effort to learn. Frank once said that you should take some four foot boards and dovetail them into a box and if they don't fit or look right, cut them off and do it again. By the time you have it down, you'll have a nice little box for your shoe polish. It's not rocket science - on the tails, mark them accuratley from the pins, cut to the line and the joints will fit, guaranteed.

[Pam Niedermayer]

John
Note that as you are scoring across the grain, unless you opt for a Veritas/Titemark style wheel gauge, what you'll need is a cutting/slitting gauge rather than an undoctored marking gauge.
Cheers
Steve

I've cut many a dovetail using a plain old pin marking guage.

Pam

[David Keller NC]

"Any suggestions on how much I need to budget to get perhaps mid-range tools, (both in quality and price), would be appreciated. Thank you, John"

There's little doubt you will get lots and lots of (differing) opinions to your question. But I'll mention something that's a little less specific. If you buy very inexpensive tools (such as, for example, a stanley dovetail saw from a big-box store), you'll own them until you dispose of them at a yard sale. High-quality tools, on the other hand, can be sold for a high fraction of their original value - this is especially true of Lie-Nielsen tools.

Regarding planes and chisels - you can get some very high-quality used tools that were made around the turn of the century by Stanley, Millers Falls, and others for very little money at flea markets, e-bay, and other sources. However, you will also have to put the time into learning to tune them. That's certainly not a bad skill to learn, but may take time away from your objective of learning to hand-cut dovetails.

[Al Navas]

I've cut many a dovetail using a plain old pin marking guage.

Pam

I second this one! This is what I use, and what Klausz uses - the "pin" marker, with the tip sharpened and rounded:

http://sandal-woodsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/hc-dts-boxes-5.png

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[Alan DuBoff]

I find a pin marker tears the grain too much, and the older Stanley pin markers I have, they have been filed to arch the tip and the sides filed to a sharp edge so it will slice through the grain. I use a Tite-Mark also, as I do awls, and a No 2 pencil even works fine.

The great thing about Klausz's method is that it doesn't require too much. In fact, Klausz uses a pencil most of the time and I recommend you do the same. So all you really need is a saw, a couple chisels, and a pencil. I would use a 1/4" and 1/2" chisels OR a 1/4" and a 3/4" chisels, FWIW.

One addition to Frank's method you might try is to cut the bulk of the waste out with a coping saw, since Klausz typically pops the waste out when working softwood, such as pine. I will most often do this, although I was taught to chisel out the waste in layers in hardwood, opposed to how Klausz pops it out pretty cleanly.

If you practice one dovetail a night for a couple weeks, you will be surprised at how much easier they get, and also how much quicker they become...I did this when I was working with a lot of 1x6 t&g, so I used the cut-offs to practice.

Attached is a pic of the first 2 Klausz style dovetails I cut a few years back, and the a pic of a box that I made about 3 or 4 months later. Finally, a pic of a corner I did on a bench in my garage. On the later houndstooth joint, I used Rob Cosman's method of laying out the tails/pins, cutting tails first as Rob does. Much of the practice I did was in the Klausz style though.

[John Sanford]

One question, what about the inexpensive Japanese dovetail saws (Vaughn's Bear line and the Marples (formerly Sharktooth)) available at local hardware stores and big box joints? How are they for getting started in dovetailing?

[Alan DuBoff]

John,

Any saw that can cut can be used for dovetails, thick blade, thin blade, they all work.

Many of those inexpensive saws you mention have impulse hardened teeth on them, and as such can't be sharpened with a file as the teeth are harder than the file.

They can be used to cut dovetails though.

If you are going that route, you might think about getting a used saw. Small investment and can get great results, and have a saw you can learn to sharpen.

Nothing wrong with the Japanese saws either, many folks prefer them. Many of them do not cut well in hardwoods, so make sure you get a saw for the wood you plan to cut. I mean that in the sense of working with softwoods or hardwoods. Many of them are also impulse hardened, so be warned. If I was going to use a Japanese saw I would look to get something like a Mistukawa rip dozuki, about $150. A good western saw (new) will cost that as well. Hida has a saw that is priced about $80 which is for hardwood.

Gent saws are cheap and work well also, you can get a Crown Gent's saw for about $20. They can be filed also, so you can learn how to sharpen. In fact you will need to sharpen these and remove some set to get good results, but the saws are ok.

Lots of choices, and those saws at the big box stores will work as well. Consider used saws also, they offer a great value. Lots of used saws floating around, but if you find someone that can sell you a sharp saw, that will offer the best value to you. That would allow you to start learning how to sharpen also. I probably have something that would fit that bill, if you wanted to go the used route, as I'm sure many other folks do here.

I have some Disston saws, might part with one of them at a reasonable price as I have more interest in English saws. I could retooth one for you also. A small 8"-10" saw would be a good saw to start with and could cut dovetails nicely. I don't really sell saws, but I have my share of them...:rolleyes:

[Al Navas]

I find a pin marker tears the grain too much, and the older Stanley pin markers I have, they have been filed to arch the tip and the sides filed to a sharp edge so it will slice through the grain. I use a Tite-Mark also, as I do awls, and a No 2 pencil even works fine....
Alan,

That is the key, and is also what I wrote. *If* the pin-type marker is not properly tuned, it will result in tearout, which is not desirable. A little filing with a very small file, and in about 5 to 10 minutes you will have a great marking tool.

I suggest you watch the three videos on my blog, in which Klausz makes a through dovetail joint.

If you need the links, please PM me, or locate my blog through my Profile | Contact Info.


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[Alan DuBoff]

I suggest you watch the three videos on my blog, in which Klausz makes a through dovetail joint.
Actually I have his video on dovetailing a drawer. :)

Others should watch it if they haven't seen Frank.

[Pam Niedermayer]

One question, what about the inexpensive Japanese dovetail saws (Vaughn's Bear line and the Marples (formerly Sharktooth)) available at local hardware stores and big box joints? How are they for getting started in dovetailing?

I strongly recommend the Professional Dozuki http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32937&cat=1,42884 that LV sells for dovetails. It cuts incredibly fast (usually zip-zip-zip), straight, and smooth, and is relatively inexpensive. Or, probably even better (according to Rob), is their rip dozuki http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=48338&cat=1,42884, but it's somewhat more expensive.

Pam

[John Grossi]

Thanks to all who shared their knowledge here. I pasted and copied to word so I can check out everything. I don't live to far from Hartville Tool, so I will be taking some Christmas money (if I get any) and see what I can find. Cheers John

[Mike Gager]

i know this is an older thread but i just watched the frank klaus dovetailing a drawer video and agree its worth watching. good stuff!

[Mark Singer]

Just file the pin to a knife edge