European jointer/planers

[Paul B. Cresti]

To all of yews, that made the switch from two separate machines to the combo machines, what do you think? Did you switch mostly for the jointing width these machines provide vs. the dedicated jointing only machines (which seem to cost much more)? Has the planing mode seem to be subservient to the jointing mode or vice versa?
And Lastly any regrets???? I need to decide if I should give up my PM60 (US one) and General planer (Canadian) for a Minmax 16" J/P in order to gain the jointing width.

[Dennis Peacock]

I have the Robland X31 with 12" jointer and planer. I like it very well and am glad of the purchase. If you are considering a MM setup....whachoo waitin' fer? Very nice stuff and I honestly belive that you will NOT regret it.

There are drawbacks to combo setup's and I sometimes whish I had BOTH setups...seperate machines and the combo machine. It really boils down to how much floor space you have as well as what capacity of jointing / planing you are needing. Limited floor space? Then the combo is a good choice.

Other than that.....I really would like to have seperate machines. That way I could leave the planer set close to where I would use it most of the time and leave the jointer setup just where I need it. Other than that, it only takes about 45 seconds to convert over and start planing again or jointing.

Some folks swear by a combo machine while other swear "at" combo machines. One draw back is knives. Send out the jointer knives to have them sharpened and you don't have a planer until you put in more knives....and vice-versa.

I don't know.....I have what I have and I like what I have. I just don't LOVE what I have.

[Jim Becker]

I have experienced no downside with the Mini Max J/P (I have the FSF350 14" version)...other than a switch that had to be replaced. Since I face joint everything before planing, I consider both functions equal in value. And since switch over takes only about a minute to a minute and a half, the space savings with the combo is HUGH, especially in my small shop.:)

The knife sharpening thing that Dennis mentions is a non-issue since many of these machines get equipped with either Tersa knives (standard on Mini Max, for example) or other insert/helical/disposable head systems. No sharpening and NO knife setting. Nada. The Tersa system, for example, makes it quite practical to quickly change knife types based on the type of wood you are working...and in only a few minutes. The only thing that slows you down is your efforts to keep from slicing your fingers into lunch meat... :eek:

I really have to say that the J/P is one of the most important tools in my shop for flat woodworking and virtually every piece of lumber hits it multiple times. Having equal width for both jointing and planing is the best thing since sliced bread, especially if you happen to like working with wider lumber as I do. I really hate the thought of ripping a nice board down just so it can be made flat!

[John Renzetti]

Hi Paul, If the General planer is the floor model 14, then you already have a real solid, heavy duty planer. I went from an old 8" Delta and a lunchbox planer to a Felder 16 and now a 20" combo J/P . With your situation though my recommendation is to consider a larger jointer. MM makes a nice 16" jointer that should be considered. There's also a few others in the 12 or 16" range-Felder-SAC, General(Canada). You're not going to save money, since the seperate jointers mentioned probably cost the same as the FS41.
You have the space, plus a nice planer already.
take care,
John

[Todd Burch]

Hi Paul.

I have the same 20" j/p that John has - the Felder AD751. I went from an 8" Powermatic jointer and a 12" Parks planer to this beast. I lost floorspace and flexibility on shop layout going from 2 machines on wheels to 1 machine that doesn't move. The new machine sits where my old jointer sits (PM was 65" long, Felder is 81" long). In putting it there, I had to remove the lumber rack the old J/P sat in front of, and the new machine STILL sticks out further from the wall than both the lumber rack and PM jointer.

Since the tables lift up to get into planer mode, no cabinets can be installed above the machine, but I might get by with hanging some jigs or clamps that otherwise take up valuable floorspace, leaning against the wall. (Note to self - do this this week!)

Dust collection routing for the Felder will require lots of flex hose to make it fast to switch over. The dust collection hood is about 2' long, and swings in an almost 180° arc from jointer mode to planer mode, so your piping should be mounted high on the wall (mine is not - yet) otherwise the hose has to be able to lift OVER the tables that are now 6'+ feet in the air.

I switched for several reasons:

1) I wanted more jointing width.
2) I wanted longer jointer tables.
3) I wanted a jointer that would not tip over when jointing 10'+ long, wide 8/4 stock.
4) I wanted a planer that I would not treat as a "last resort" machine when I needed to thickness wood.
5) I wanted a faster system for knife changes on both machines.
6) I wanted better dust collection on my planer (homemade dust collection hood that operated at about 75% efficiency)
7) I wanted a better scale on the planer.
8) I wanted less snipe.

So, how did I fair in my wishlist? Pretty good I think...

1) Went from 8" to 20". Mission accomplished. Big time.
2) Went from 65" to 81", plus I ordered a 20" extension, and could order another 20" extension if I need to. Mission acomplished.
3) If this jointer ever tips over from too much weight on the outfeed table, I don't want to be around to try and stop it. Old jointer weighed around 500 lbs. New jointer weighs in at around 1,430 lbs. Safe to say, mission accomplished.
4) Mission accomplished. It will be even better when I reroute my dust collection to put it higher on the wall instead of being on the floor that worked fine for the Powermatic. Right now, it's a pain.
5) I have not swapped knives yet on the new machine, but they are designed to be a "loosen jibs, drop in, tighten jibs" type of system with no adjustment. No reason to not believe the techs. On Felder's word - mission acomplished.
6) Dust collection hood and operation is awesome. The new dust collector helped too!)
7) Felder sent the wrong scale (metric instead of English), but I think I am going to like its operation. It is certainly easier to read and more granular in its readings. Mission accomplished.
8) My old jointer had no snipe, but the old planer has a good solid 2¾" snipe on both ends. I'm sure it was adjustable - I just did't have the time or knowledge to correct it. A tech at one complany where I could knives said that it was adjutable to a max of 3/8" snipe, which would have bee a huge improvement. The new machine, after the service tech adjusted it, has ZERO snipe. It's awesome! Mission definately accomplished.

I think the combo machines are a good solution when these machines get this big. You can get a standalone 20" planer fairly reasonable just about anywhere, but at the low prices, I'm just not sure how "industrial" they are. This Felder is definately industrial.

Look up Jim Becker's old post about his MinMax to read about the tube that sticks out the back for the fence. Where he put his, he had to a cut a hole in his wall to maximize his floorspace.

Todd

[Jim Becker]

Look up Jim Becker's old post about his MinMax to read about the tube that sticks out the back for the fence. Where he put his, he had to a cut a hole in his wall to maximize his floorspace. This is true, although it's only garnering about two and a half inches. This will become a lot more inconsequential when I make a little modification to my shop building that will allow me to remove the wall that supports the top of the stairs that goes upstairs. Your comments about needing to locate other things in the shop as not to interfere with the infeed and outfeed of the combo is quite true, but that's a burden I can live with! (my Mini Max takes the hose for both hoods at the same end, fortunately)

[Paul B. Cresti]

Jim,
thanks for all your help. Is your fence alum or cast iron? Does the "small" planer bed ever cause you a problem with long boards? and do you get any snipe?

[Paul B. Cresti]

Todd,
If you could would you have gone to two seaparate larger machines? I just keep getting "hung up" on selling my General planer as it does do what I need it to do, It is just the jointer is not big enough. Then my concerns switches to if I go to a bigger jointer and then I do not match or exceed it capabilities in a planer then once again I am limited.

[Jim Becker]

Is your fence alum or cast iron? Does the "small" planer bed ever cause you a problem with long boards? and do you get any snipe?
The fence, itself, is aluminum and well-built. One thing I really like about it is that it's a lot higher than the fences on most "traditional" jointers. That makes for more stability when preparing edges of wider boards.

I get ZERO snipe when planing a flat board. I did have a very slight amount of snipe when jointing initially, but it was merely that the outfeed table needed raised ever so slightly.

[Todd Burch]

If I would have had the floor space for 2 permanently positioned machines - yes, I would have gone to two machines. If you think about it, when doing a job with a combo machine, you really only have 1 machine at a time. If you are in the middle of planing your stock, and you need to run a quick jointer pass - or you get bigger and hire someone and they need to joint, you wait.

My PM jointer did everything I asked it too. And, now it has a happy new owner and. I'm considering keep the Parks 12" planer for reclaimed wood. I would much rather send the dirt/rock/nail/screw laiden board though it first then through the Felder.

Now, I'm backwards in machines. I had a 8" jointer, 12" planer and 15" wide belt sander. Now, a 20" jointer, 20" planer and 15" wide belt sander. Oh well... Next belt sander will be 37", maybe a couple heads. (cha-ching!! cha-chingg!!)

[Chris Padilla]

Paul,

I have an FS-41 Elite (MiniMax 16" J/P) on order. My shop is the typcial 2-car garage and so space is a priority. I went with the combo machine to save on space and I went with MiniMax over Felder due to cost.

[Richard McComas]

Hi Paul, I have a Felder 16'' Jointer/Planer and couldn't be happier. I up graded from a Inca Jointer/planer. I the Inca was a nice machine but I wanted something more heavy duty with more table width and length. I also wanted a high quality machines and could not afford the cost of two separate machines so the felder combo was a perfect choice even thou I had room in the shop for seperate machines.

Now I'm not sure of all the options available on the various brands of jointer/planer combos but two most important one in my view are the electric lift kit for raising and lowering the planer table. Second is the digital read out system on the Felder allows you to record previous thickness setting allowing you to very accurately recreate the same thickness of stock should you forget to run a piece or ruin a previously made item in a project.

With the electric lift the change over time is about 45-50 seconds and saves you a lot of hand cranking.

[Jim Becker]

Richard, I find that manually cranking my FS350 isn't all that more time than you're quoting on the electric lift kit. Total changeover only takes me about a minute to a minute a half if I'm not distracted by something on the radio. Does the electric lift include "pre-sets" so you can hit a button and walk away? THAT I would find useful! :)

[Richard McComas]

Richard, I find that manually cranking my FS350 isn't all that more time than you're quoting on the electric lift kit. Total changeover only takes me about a minute to a minute a half if I'm not distracted by something on the radio. Does the electric lift include "pre-sets" so you can hit a button and walk away? THAT I would find useful! :)

Hi Jim, the time I posted for change over was a guess so I went to the shop and did an actual timed test. With the planer table in the full up or down position it takes 23 seconds to move to the opposite position and another 11 seconds to raise or lower the tables and flip the dust chute to the correct position for a total of 34 seconds for the change over.

With the gear/thread ratio on the felder that translates to 74.5 revolution of the crank handle to completely raise or lower the planer table from top to bottom or bottom to top.

To answer you questions on pre-sets, yes and no. Depends on which option you buy. The electric lift I have does not allow for pre-sets, it has two buttons, one moves the planer table fast and the other is slower for fine tuning, in both case you continually hold the button down while watching the digital read out scale, stopping it where you wish.

The other option, is a computer controlled electric lift kit with a keypad that you enter what you want, and I’m almost sure it can be programmed for pre-sets. That option was a little out of my price range so I didn’t fully research the finer points of that system, if John Renzetti is watching this thread he may be able to better explain the computer controlled lift kit better than I.

[Chris Padilla]

Rich,

What are your thoughts about the DC on the Felder? I know that you have to switch sides for that operation and it sounds like a pain.

On the MiniMax, the DC fitting is on the same side regardless of J or P operation. I'm not trying to start a Felder vs. MiniMax war here...I just want an honest appraisal of the DC. Certainly for me, it wasn't the DC that swayed me over to MM but it didn't help. :)

[John Renzetti]

hi Chris, Putting the quick connect hose on the jointer or planer position of my AD751 takes a couple of seconds. Felders engineers feel that having one large chip collection port allows for better collection especially when making deeper cuts in wider material. If you could see how this is designed you would know what I'm talking about. It's too bad you didn't get a side by side comparison. The price difference probably would still have been the deciding factor but at least you could see the engineering behind the single chip collection.
Rich asked about the digital control. Basically you just punch in the desired thickness, say 25.4mm and the table adjusts to that. You can also set it up to raise the table incrementally. I haven't timed the raise and lower speed of the table, but it moves pretty quickly.
take care,
John

[Chris Padilla]

John,

Do you have any pictures of how you do your DC switch on the AD751? I'm curious how you have it set up.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Jim,
I am not sure if you answered this or not but, how far back does that post "stick out" behind you J/P?

[Jim Becker]

I'm working from memory, Paul, as I'm traveling on business, but I think it's something like 14" when fully extended. (Fence all the way to the back of the machine)