Question about walnut

[Brian Kerley]

So yesterday I went to one of my sources for hardwood (woodworkers source here in AZ), and I was digging through their 4/4 and 6/4 piles of walnut and they had nothing decent. The grain was hideous (not straight, weird grain patterns, like circles, ellipses, etc) and even when it looked ok, there was sapwood everywhere. One side would be colored, and 75% of the backs would be sap. They were calling this stuff FAS, and wanted 8.99/bf for 4/4 and 10.99/bf for 6/4. They also had a pile of "sappy" walnut, but considering the amount of sap on their "good" stuff, I can't imagine what the sappy walnut looked like. Is this really what walnut is like these days, or is it just this supplier?

[Craig D Peltier]

So yesterday I went to one of my sources for hardwood (woodworkers source here in AZ), and I was digging through their 4/4 and 6/4 piles of walnut and they had nothing decent. The grain was hideous (not straight, weird grain patterns, like circles, ellipses, etc) and even when it looked ok, there was sapwood everywhere. One side would be colored, and 75% of the backs would be sap. They were calling this stuff FAS, and wanted 8.99/bf for 4/4 and 10.99/bf for 6/4. They also had a pile of "sappy" walnut, but considering the amount of sap on their "good" stuff, I can't imagine what the sappy walnut looked like. Is this really what walnut is like these days, or is it just this supplier?

Walnut is one of the most wasteful woods if you dont want to use sapwood. Alot of suppliers around here sell it 90% heart an 75% on the other side. Yours sounded like theres more sap than that. I guess its not an exact science either when they are grading.
They steam walnut to make the sapwood match better to the heartwood. Steaming makes the heartwood much lighter. Sometimes you can find airdried which is darker.
The new growth walnuts also have less heartwood. I dont know why.
Prices seem high but it might just be your part of the US. Around here its about 7 for 4/4.

[Chris Padilla]

Scroll to the end of my Tansu project thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=92396) I have going to see the walnut I have on hand. Mine is exceptional compared to what you found and I was a bit unhappy with the amount of sapwood I had...but no longer am I unhappy now! :)

[Brian Kerley]

Walnut is one of the most wasteful woods if you dont want to use sapwood. Alot of suppliers around here sell it 90% heart an 75% on the other side. Yours sounded like theres more sap than that. I guess its not an exact science either when they are grading.
They steam walnut to make the sapwood match better to the heartwood. Steaming makes the heartwood much lighter. Sometimes you can find airdried which is darker.
The new growth walnuts also have less heartwood. I dont know why.
Prices seem high but it might just be your part of the US. Around here its about 7 for 4/4.


Well, the sapwood was bright white/cream so I'm assuming the stuff I was looking at was not steamed?

[C Scott McDonald]

Well, if it makes you feel any better we get a lot of the same crappy walnut in colorado too. Unless you are there when they put out new Walnut and get first pick the rest is junk.

[Chris Schumann]

Rockler has beautiful walnut... the stuff in stock up here is straight grain, barely any defects at all let alone sapwood, 2 or maybe 4 sides smooth, and about $15 per bdft on their website in the largest sizes.

[Chris Padilla]

Rockler has beautiful walnut... the stuff in stock up here is straight grain, barely any defects at all let alone sapwood, 2 or maybe 4 sides smooth, and about $15 per bdft on their website in the largest sizes.

Yep! One can certainly PAY for it! :) craigslist is often a decent source of local wood for significantly better prices....

[Craig Johnson]

Yep! One can certainly PAY for it! :) craigslist is often a decent source of local wood for significantly better prices....


I have seen nice looking Walnut on my local Craigslist including live slabs for good prices.

[Brian Effinger]

We've got crappy stuff here in NY too. I was told recently that sapwood is no longer considered a defect in grading. I think cherry is the same way.

[Mike Hess]

Yep! One can certainly PAY for it! :) craigslist is often a decent source of local wood for significantly better prices....


Agreed. I picked up about 80 b.f. of walnut recently for 1.25/b.f. It's rough cut, and still green, so it's going to need to dry out for a year or so before I can use it, but for that price, I'm willing to wait.

[Lee Schierer]

Good Black Walnut is getting hard to find. Most of the old growth trees that were 30+ inches across are gone and they are harvesting much smaller trees. This results in significantly more sap wood than heart wood. I was at a museum in Virginia and they had a drop leaf table that had a 36" drop leaf that was all
one piece and no sap wood.

[Mike Schmalzer]

If you are looking for a great source of walnut try http://www.gobywalnut.com It is all western black walnut. It is air dried for a year per inch and then put into a kiln until thoroughly dry. No steam used at all. The colors are just amazing. I do believe that they will ship too.

I recently did a kitchen island out of it. Have a look.

[Don Bullock]

Rockler has beautiful walnut... the stuff in stock up here is straight grain, barely any defects at all let alone sapwood, 2 or maybe 4 sides smooth, and about $15 per bdft on their website in the largest sizes.

Recently the local Rockler stores had some beautiful walnut for 30% off so I picked up a few of really nice boards. Since then I haven't seen any nice looking walnut at any of the suppliers that I frequent. Walnut is truly a "hit and miss" wood. When I find good boards I buy them.

There are always walnut boards for sale on eBay. I haven't bought any that way, but it's worth a look.

[Chris Padilla]

If you are looking for a great source of walnut try http://www.gobywalnut.com It is all western black walnut. It is air dried for a year per inch and then put into a kiln until thoroughly dry. No steam used at all. The colors are just amazing. I do believe that they will ship too.

I recently did a kitchen island out of it. Have a look.

Very nice! I'm glad to see some sources out here on the Left Coast. We still ain't got no cherry out here but walnut, claro, and big leaf maple are plentiful...plus the occasional redwood burl...and some nice cedar, too! :D

[Larry Fox]

Hearne Hardwoods in Oxford PA has walnut that will blow your mind. They have it in pretty much any thickness you want and they do ship. I was talking to the guy out there the other day and asked him about steaming and he said their stuff is air dried and finished in the kiln - no steam. Sapwood varies by the board as you might expect but if you are careful you can get a good yield. Last two pieces of 8/4 that I bought to build side tables out of yielded very close to 100%. They don't give it away but in my opinion the cost is worth it.

[Chip Lindley]

There is no question *good* black walnut is becoming less and less in the 21st Century. We must remember the BEST goes overseas for veneer, NEVER *just lumber*!!

But IMO, your location dictates that walnut be imported from other parts of the country. Also, since none better is available locally, your dealer is free to push off less quality for more bucks.

Were you in Appalachia or the Ozarks, your selection would be much finer, at less cost. There is some nice stuff available here in central Missouri from small sawmills, especially walnut and white oak. If logs will not make the grade for veneer, much is just considered *pallet lumber*!!

[Marcus Ward]

$3.00/bf for black walnut here, almost no sapwood (last time I bought it was a small part on one piece out of about 60bf). At the prices here vs the prices there it'd almost be worth the ultra cheap gas to go on a road trip for lumber!!! I'm just north of the Ozarks, so I guess that's why we get such good stuff. Cherry, QSWO, Walnut, Hard Maple all about 3/bf, sometimes less if I buy gobs of it.

[Howard Acheson]

Under the national grading standards, sapwood is not considered a defect when grading walnut or cherry. If you don't want sapwood, you must specify it that way and the price may be higher.

BTW, wild grain patterns is considered a "plus" to many woodworkers.

[Brian Kerley]

Under the national grading standards, sapwood is not considered a defect when grading walnut or cherry. If you don't want sapwood, you must specify it that way and the price may be higher.

BTW, wild grain patterns is considered a "plus" to many woodworkers.

This wasn't "wild" in a good way. Certain types of wild figure are desireable, this was grain that just wasn't very nice looking. Rotary cut veneer gives wild grain that isn't hugely desirable, and the grain on the walnut reminded me of that stuff.

[Joe Jensen]

So yesterday I went to one of my sources for hardwood (woodworkers source here in AZ), and I was digging through their 4/4 and 6/4 piles of walnut and they had nothing decent. The grain was hideous (not straight, weird grain patterns, like circles, ellipses, etc) and even when it looked ok, there was sapwood everywhere. One side would be colored, and 75% of the backs would be sap. They were calling this stuff FAS, and wanted 8.99/bf for 4/4 and 10.99/bf for 6/4. They also had a pile of "sappy" walnut, but considering the amount of sap on their "good" stuff, I can't imagine what the sappy walnut looked like. Is this really what walnut is like these days, or is it just this supplier?

Woodworkers Source is THE WORST SOURCE IN ARIZONA

They have the lowest quality hardwoods, stuff that commercial shops would reject, and they sell for about 2X the price you will pay at a commercial yard. On top of selling the worst material at the highest price, they measure by taking the widest point of the board and round up to the nearest 1/2" and they measure the length and round up to the nearest inch.

I get great material at Lumber Products in Chandler. They are near I10 and the 101 south of Chandler Blvd. I don't have a business license and have never been asked for one. If they ask for a taxpayer ID, just say you pay tax. I always buy there with a credit card. The only downside is that they keep commercial hours. At Lumber Products, and the other commercial yards, they measure the narrowest part of the board, and they round the length down to the nearest foot. So say the board is 8 feet 5 inches, they will call it 8 feet. These measuring differences really add up. Recently I had to pick up 2 eight foot boards on a Saturday and Woodworkers Source was the only place open. Later in the week I went to Lumber Products. I got 4 boards there, and the way they measured, it was only 10% more material. Lumber Products pricing is about 40% less than Woodworkers Source, and the quality is top notch.

With the lower pricing, and the more generous measuringment you will pay 1/2 as much as at Woodworkers source, and maybe only 1/3rd...joe

[Larry Edgerton]

Under the national grading standards, sapwood is not considered a defect when grading walnut or cherry. If you don't want sapwood, you must specify it that way and the price may be higher.

BTW, wild grain patterns is considered a "plus" to many woodworkers.

Correct. According to my guy at Johnsons Work Bench the standard changed just a few years ago when they could not get enough heart to satisfy demand. I buy 40% more cherry than I need for a project, and then I use up the sapwood, which is structurally just dandy, for drawer boxes and hidden/interior parts.

[Peter Quinn]

The walnut i've been seeing here in CT is not pretty. I work for millwork business that also sells lumber, so there is usually plenty of material,, but finding quality boards is challenging. Butternut on the other hand is easy, its just gone, unavailable, so we don't offer it any more! I hear what you are saying about the grain too. Who doesn't love crazy figured walnut, but the stuff I am seeing looks like it was cut from diseased limbs, not trunks. It is not crazy good, it is crazy fugly. An sap is a major problem even down to 5/4 material, 8/4 is a nightmare. Some of it looks like it was the first cut after the bark was stripped.

I guess you can get the good stuff if you are willing to pay a specialty firm for it or you live in walnut country, but it has become an increasingly rare commodity in these parts in any quality.

[Don Bullock]

Hearne Hardwoods in Oxford PA has walnut that will blow your mind. ...

I've drooled over some of their pictures. They do have some beautiful wood. The cost of shipping to the West Coast pushes the cost up. I tried to order wood from one East Coast supplier and discovered that the shipping cost was higher than the price of the wood.:eek:

[Jim Becker]

The rules for FAS in walnut are different than from other woods because it's harder to get yields on long and wide walnut due to the nature of how the trees grow (not straight), etc. But some suppliers as others have pointed out do go to lengths to make wider, clear walnut available....it may not come inexpensively, however.

I was fortunate that the walnut off my property was largely of excellent quality and generally clear. But I have seen material like you describe at some suppliers...

[John Daugherty]

I was offered some walnut a couple weeks ago that was roughsawn and still drying for 1.50 bd/ft. It was in the 6 - 10 inch range and all heart. Maybe I should go back and get some.

[Brian Kerley]

I was offered some walnut a couple weeks ago that was roughsawn and still drying for 1.50 bd/ft. It was in the 6 - 10 inch range and all heart. Maybe I should go back and get some.

See, in TN you get much closer to the source. Out here in the desert the only wood you can lay your hands on is stuff suitable for turning (like manzanita, etc) and mesquite in decent lengths/widths. Everything else is whatever gets trucked in unfortunately. So you get to pay for all that shipping, and then you only get about 4-5 sources to pick from.

[Noah Vig]

Supplier and your location IMO. I would find a supplier with reasonable prices and have it shipped to you or speak to the manager of the yard you go to and let him know what you want. They might be willing to call you once it comes in stock. Thats what a local sawmill does for me and its very nice. Often, the lumber has not been removed from the drying stacks yet when I get there and they move it so I can sort through it. When I request to be called when a species (cherry and walnut so far) and dimension comes into stock, I buy a fair amount considering I am a hobbiest and they get a quick sale. Works well and both of us are happy.:)

[Gary Breckenridge]

Why do I think the supplier got a great price on a truckload of second rate walnut, maybe a pile of rejects from the coffin industry? Let the guy know that its overpriced junk and you will have to shop elsewhere.:cool: He may wise up.

[Bob Crispin]

Brian
Stay away from Woodworkers source unless you cannot buy it any place else. They are over priced and the quality is lacking. I buy my doors and drawer fronts at Elite Woodworking, when I am making cabinets. I ran out of Walnut for my last cabinet that I was building and asked them if they could make me some boards of various sizes. I needed 22.5 bd ft and their price finished sanded and ready for a finish was 1.15 a bd ft more than woodworkers source. No waste and finish sanded to size and that more than covers the added cost. 2135 W. Melinda Lane Suite F 623-780-8080 They are not a lumber yard.

[paul wiser]

if you need a good source for walnut, might i suggest groff and groff lumber of quarryville, pa. have rarely had a problem with their stock.

[Daren K Nelson]

Walnut is one of the most wasteful woods if you dont want to use sapwood.

Yep, it's a shame too. And many people just do not want any sap. I personally find it adds interest to some pieces, but don't want it on others. I just think steamed walnut is gross, sure the sapwood is darker but the trade off is the heartwood is muted it looks like pudding with no color contrasts. Milling walnut for me is a love/hate relationship. It is one of, if not my very favorite woods to use, but it breaks my heart to waste so much removing sapwood that there is just not much of a market for...so the really sappy wood just goes to the burn pile here.

Here is an example of just what it takes to get sapfree (and in this case virtually knot free) lumber. This large pile of logs was reduced to a mere 750 bft of FAS :eek:. There was more lumber harvested from them, but the pile in the pictures was the "good stuff" sorted out. I have picky personal grading standards, these boards are all 8"-12" wide and 8'-10' long almost perfectly clear sawn 4/4-8/4

[Barry Richardson]

Brian, I use Spellman Hardwood at 43 Ave and Camelback. If you have the capability to plane rough lumber, it's a much better deal, around $6 a BF and it's usually decent quality. I hear Chandler Hardwoods is a good place too, though I've never been there. Barry

[Brian Kerley]

Yeah, I had called Chanlder/Powers and they had no walnut at the time. I got what I needed for my current project, but now I've got some good sources for the future :)

[Rich Enders]

Brian,

Have you tried Superior Hardwoods in Phoenix? I have used them several times for cherry and the quality is good. Also the guys out back will set up the skid and let you take all day to pick out what you want.

I have not purchased walnut from them, but their website lists 4/4, and 8/4 in stock. They mostly deal with the trades, but they will sell to anyone.

They are also the stocking distributor for Columbia Forest Products "UV Wood" which is prefinished hardwood plywood.

[Paul Johnstone]

Agreed. I picked up about 80 b.f. of walnut recently for 1.25/b.f. It's rough cut, and still green, so it's going to need to dry out for a year or so before I can use it, but for that price, I'm willing to wait.

I agree on that. For Walnut, it's best to find a local sawer.

I got a bunch of 8/4 walnut at 1.50 bdft and some 4/4 at 1.00 bdft. It was a mixed lot of klin dried and partially airdried. With the money you save, you can get a moisture meter. Of course, as Tom Petty says "The Waiting is the hardest part".

Luckily, I have several years worth of projects already in the queue.

[Brian Kerley]

Brian,

Have you tried Superior Hardwoods in Phoenix? I have used them several times for cherry and the quality is good. Also the guys out back will set up the skid and let you take all day to pick out what you want.

I have not purchased walnut from them, but their website lists 4/4, and 8/4 in stock. They mostly deal with the trades, but they will sell to anyone.

They are also the stocking distributor for Columbia Forest Products "UV Wood" which is prefinished hardwood plywood.

Yeah, someone else tipped me to them. I think I'm going to ditch WWS, just been disappointed over price and quality for too long, but I've given it a pass just because it's S2S. I have a feeling that with milling, I still could come out ahead.