Help needed choosing a shoulder plane.

[Frank Gilbert]

The medium Lie-Nielsen shoulder plane is top of my list. The high end wood planes make sense and look great although I have not noticed a lot of interest on this site or in the magazine reviews. Any experience to share would be great. I already have project plow, jointer and block planes to work on so new is the guiding objective.

[John Dykes]

I too went with the LN medium shoulder plane...

I strongly recommend you find a way to "touch and feel" these shoulder planes. I'm pretty hamfisted, and this particular plane didn't feel right in it - at all. In Berea, I fondled both the large LN, and the large LV. Each felt better than the medium that I owned.

I just recently sold my medium LN to pay for the large LV (with handy little knobs). Don't get me wrong, that LN could sing - but didn't feel right for me in the hand. The large Lee Valley is just right...

[Mike Henderson]

The medium LV fits my hand a lot better than the LN. See if you can get your hands on both before you decide.

Mike

[Jim Becker]

The medium LV fits my hand a lot better than the LN. See if you can get your hands on both before you decide.

I had the same experience as Mike...tried both at a show and chose the LV for the medium shoulder plane. 'Just felt more comfortable to "me"...and I find that important since I'm not a very accomplished user of Neander techniques.

[Jim Koepke]

I agree with others saying try to use it before you buy it. If possible, go to one of the wood tool shows.

If they are present, try the Bridge City Tool Works shoulder plane. I used one at a show once and was amazed. Of course, the price is one SWMBO will not let me spend, so I am happy with my Stanley.

BTW, Stanley is releasing some new models, one is a shoulder plane. They may be worth a look.

jim

[Ken Werner]

Love my LV med. As has been said, hold one in your hands if you can. If you can't, I don't think you'll wrong with the LV.

[Richard Niemiec]

What Ken said.

RN

[Barry Vabeach]

Frank, what Ken and Richard said about the LV medium shoulder plane is the truth - it is great. I haven't tried the high end wooden shoulder planes, though I have an antique, but don't think they would be as good. The LV has the set screws that are very important in a shoulder plane to make sure the iron projects evenly from each side, and I don't think the wooden ones come with that feature. Barry

[Mike Cutler]

The medium Lie-Nielsen shoulder plane is top of my list. The high end wood planes make sense and look great although I have not noticed a lot of interest on this site or in the magazine reviews. Any experience to share would be great. I already have project plow, jointer and block planes to work on so new is the guiding objective.

Frank

I'm not certain if I'm reading your post correctly, so I'll try to answer.

I have the LN 042, and it's is beefy little plane. excellent weight, cut's great, made very well. It does take a little bit of technique, and unless you have really big hands you will most likely use both hands for finesse work.
There is enough mass in the plane to take a pretty good amount of material if not set properly. A very light cut is the key.


I'm not sure how to read the following sentence from your initial post;
"The high end wood planes make sense and look great although I have not noticed a lot of interest on this site or in the magazine reviews. ".
If you are referring to high end wood planes made from metal There is a good deal of interest. Lie-Nielsen,and Lee Valley both make excellent planes, either of which you wouldn't be making a bad choice with.

If you are referring to wooden bodied planes, there is still a good amount of interest, both in refurbishing them and making new ones.
A number of folks here on the board have been making their own "woodies" lately.

[Johnny Kleso]

I have a LN 73 fits my hand better than a 42 if you hold it pulling the plane but pushing it..

I also had a Record 42 which I sold after I learned to pull the plane..

[Frank Gilbert]

Thank you for the answers. I guess that blows out the wood planes and I regret that for some reason. I attended a week long hand tool school in Berea last March and spent the first three days ( as did most everybody ) squaring, flattening and sharpening the planes we brought to class. Didn't expect that and was really jealous of the two or three guys who brought nice stuff and didn't have to rework it. Deneb from Lie-Nielsen had all three shoulder planes from his company. I was so overwhelmed with trying to keep up I hardly looked at the shoulder planes and now regret it. I bought the L-N low angle jack plane and what an delight. Perfect out of the box. What a relief.

Is there a discount outlet for Lie-Nielsen? And thanks again.

[Frank Gilbert]

I respect the people that have or build wood planes, however, I have a lot of old shop equipment to rehab and so plan to buy stuff ready to roll at least till I am caught up project tools. I really mean' t that I like the looks of the ECE and some other planes made of wood, however, seldom see a review recommending them over say a L-N. At some point I will purchase one of ECE or like product and doubt there will be regrets. Hope that answered the question. Someone mentioned Bridge City and of course that is hard to justify but, if you like their tools eBay has a lot of them for sale. I would like to know if they are always so common on that site or if this has something to do with the economy. I bought more than I should thinking I would not have another chance and everyday more show up!

[Don Dorn]

I almost bought a Stanley #92 but kept reading about everyone loving their LV medium. I decided to spring and felt a little buyers remorse because of the extra dough. However, each time I use it, the remorse goes away a little more. The money is long gone but the plane is for life. It's a great tool and worth the chips IMHO.

[glenn bradley]

Another happy LV medium user here.

[Joel Goodman]

I have a LV medium and like it a lot. If I were shopping I would also look at the Gordon shoulder planes which are wood with a brass covering and are supposed to be excellent -- but of course do not have an adjuster. I'm sure the LN are also excellent.

[Ken Werner]

Is there a discount outlet for Lie-Nielsen? And thanks again.

There is no discount outlet for LN, but
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/
has free shipping, as does
http://www.finetoolj.com/

Both very reputable companies to deal with. Unless you get lucky, it's hard to get these planes for less than their usual price.

Ken

[Chris Kennedy]

I'll echo whats been said -- see if you can get your hands on both. I tried both and went with the Lee Valley. Again, it just fit my hand better. And it is an awesome plane.

Cheers,

Chris

[Brian J. Williams]

I own the large LV shoulder plane, because I was trimming lots of large tenons and needed a shoulder plane. It took an evening of honing and then setting up the iron-limiting screws, but after that it was (and continues to be) a breeze to use. Looking at the pictures of the new Stanley's, I don't think they'll be as easy to grip as the LV. I plan on buying the LV medium shoulder plane after the first of the year, and even if the new stanley comes in at $100.00 or so, I'll still buy the LV because it's going to be easier to hold onto for me.

My FWIW.

Brian

[David Keller NC]

Frank - An alternative opinion; a shoulder plane should be purchased to match the size of the work you're doing, not your hand. If, for example, you make a lot of smallish wall-type cabinets, small tables, and the like, a smaller shoulder plane is a heck of a lot easier to use than a big one. The opposite is true, of course, for someone that builds a lot of custom doors for a house.

There's good reason that I've all 4 of Lie-Nielsen's offerings - I would not give up my small bronze shoulder from them; it's a superbly performing plane that is just right for the 1/4" thick tenons on a spice box door frame. The large one is necessary for large bridle joints and big tenons on large case work.

If you prefer wooden bodies, ECE planes are very well made (though not really high-end), and the HNT Gordon planes are several steps above that. One of the advantages to a wooden-bodied shoulder plane is that they are quite light - I'm sure that opinions vary here, but in my view weight is really no advantage in a shoulder plane.

[Terry Beadle]

I agree with David. I prefer woodies but the steel can handle tough stuff the woodies struggle with. I have a Stanley 93 and the LN large plane. However I once had a woodie that I bought on the bay and tuned up for my brother. It was really sweet. Light, easily handled and took the finest shaving. He also bought a LV med and I've briefly used it before he snatched it out of my suit case...hoot!

I've since practiced with the LN and it has it own way of doing things. The handling is quite a bit different. I use it on all tennons unless they are very small and then I use the 93. So it depends on the size of the work. The big LN is also a great shooting plane for thin stock. All that mass gets going and it just shears through. I've also found David Charlesworth's techniques with chisels to really do precise tennon work. IMO that video he did on chisel use is really worth seeing.

One comment about handling. Handling is different for each plane. I think all the planes mentioned so far will do very good work and each may take a different path to that goal. The japanease say it takes a couple years of use to learn how to best use a plane or chisel. So handling is not just a fit to the hand but a fit to the skills...and practice, practice...etc.

If I bought another it would be the HNT Gordon. I have their palm smoother in ebony and it's a real treasure.

We live in great times...as long as the money holds out!

Best shavings to you and happy holidays!

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Not to sound pedantic, but what are you going to use it for, Frank? What scale of work?

The only shoulder plane I own, down from two, is the LN 1/2" infill. Wonderful plane, though I never actually use it on tenon shoulders. I prefer to use a chisel on hand sawn tenon shoulders. One reason is that I slightly undercut them.

I do use it to deepen rebates (either dimension) or square up a slightly out of square rebates. If I had a wooden rebate plane, I would use it for such work due to the higher angle it has. The higher angle works well on end grain. So don't forget those shoulder planes made by Phil Edwards (Philly Planes in the UK) or the HNT Gordon (Australian maker), as well as a plane from Larry Williams (Clark & Williams in Arkansas).

Or, simply use a chisel.

Take care, Mike

[Adam Cherubini]

I say skip it. These planes were not used in the 18th century, which I find telling. If you are doing architectural scale work they might be helpful. They aren't wide enough to work a tenon cheek. They were probably originally intended for tenon shoulders. But it seems guys want to plane tenon cheeks that were cut on table saws. For that you may do better with a skew rabbet block plane thingy that LN sells.

That said, folks love these planes. I guess they are really fun to use. I didn't find them fun enough to buy one.

Adam

[Eric Brown]

I bought a ebony shoulder plane on E-Bay for $40. (I know - buy American, but read on).
This plane has the wooden wedge, a first for me. It works fine. I'm happy with it. Why not American?
I have been trying to "collect" L-N, but when it comes to the shoulder planes, the opinions are either positive or negative with regards to how they feel. Seems like there is no middle ground. Most opinions on the L-V shoulder planes are that they feel and work good, but aren't as good looking as the others. So I bought cheap to buy some time (and gain experience) until I find which plane I really want. I just got a L-V premium block plane and if they had a premium shoulder plane it would be at the top of my list. For now I'll wait.

[David Keller NC]

"I say skip it. These planes were not used in the 18th century, which I find telling."

Adam - Perhaps a rabbet plane was used for the same purpose? I suspect that a long paring chisel would probably have been the most-used method, as it's considerably faster. However, I've used a wooden rabbet plane for this purpose, and it does work well, provided the stock is not twisted from changes in humidity. It would be very interesting to see pictures of tenon shoulders from 18th century furniture taken apart for restoration purposes...

[Adam Cherubini]

I've not seen really long paring chisels in 18th c images. I think the tools you are thinking of are turn of the 20th c. The only shoulders I've ever seen apart appeared to be straight from the saw. I sometimes under bevel tenons. That work has to be done with a chisel. If rabbets were used (and I doubt they were) it would have been for wider tenons like those found in wainscots or doors.

Always seems to me that such techniques emerge because guys don't feel they can saw to a line or don't want to. It's really not that hard to saw accurately. I realize it's nice to have some fancy shoulder plane for when you need it. But I think guys who did this work for a living just good enough with their hand saws that they didn't need to use a plane as a matter of course. And when they made mistakes, a simple chisel probably sufficed. I think shoulder planes were developed to fix machine made joints, where a uniform whisker needed to be removed to bring a joint together.

Adam

[Jim Becker]

I say skip it. These planes were not used in the 18th century, which I find telling. ...
That said, folks love these planes. I guess they are really fun to use. I didn't find them fun enough to buy one.

Outside of someone wanting to do reproduction work with the same tools as the original, my feeling is that one should choose tooling that makes them happy and does useful work for them. Even as an only occasional Neander, I have found my LV medium shoulder plane to be quite useful. Not as much as my LN low-angle block plane, but it does get used. I honestly cannot say that about my larger planes as I still have to find time to learn how to use them properly. The learning curve for the smaller planes has been very fast for me.

[Rob Luter]

I went with the LV Medium version and have been very pleased.

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/planes/05p4101s8.jpg

[Chris Friesen]

I say skip it. These planes were not used in the 18th century, which I find telling. If you are doing architectural scale work they might be helpful.

I prefer using a router plane to true up handsawn tenon cheeks, and normally use a chisel on the shoulders (except maybe for truing up breadboard ends).

My medium shoulder plane (a christmas present from my wife...wonderful woman) did come in very handy trimming some slightly oversized hardwood floorboards. I didn't notice the size difference until after I'd nailed them down, of course.

[Eric Brown]

As another poster mentioned, using a router plane first to true up the tenons will allow the shoulder plane to use it's nice flat, perpendicular shape to make square shoulders. If the tenons are not flat or square to the face of the board, it probably won't work. Perfectly square mating of the tenon to the mortice is the Holy Grail of that we wish to achive.
Next best is undercutting with a chisel. This allows the maximum contact on outer portions of the tenon, allows the joint to be pulled tight, and a little bit of area for glue to hide.
What you don't want is overcut shoulders as this results in weaker joints.
For the technique on using a router plane to true up and center the tenons, thei is a nice discription on the Lie-Nielsen website.

[Matt Bickford]

I have the med. LN and a C&W 1" rabbet plane. I am 100% to grab the C&W. I mean that, 100%. I really used to like my LN plane. Then I got the rabbet to cut rabbets. I now only use it. The weight, the sharp corners, having to worry about rust, adjustment all work against the LN with regard to my preferences. I have yet to adjust the mouth on my LN. It's a feature I don't need. If it weren't for the waiting period I would recommend the C&W plane. It has made me often wonder how much happier I would be with a wooden jointer...

[Hank Knight]

Frank,

Have you seen the photos of the new Stanley line of premium planes? One of them ie a shoulder plane that looks prerty good. My bet is that it will be considerably less expensive than LN, LV or other high end shoulder planes available today. You might want to get your hands on one of them before you make your choice. I understand they're either already on the market or will be very soon. Here's a link to Chris Schwartz's Blog with photos:
http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/CategoryView,category,Handplanes.aspx
FWIW, I have the LN Large and Medium shoulder planes. I like them both, but I think if I were starting over today, I'd buy the LVs because of what seems to be a consensus about their superior ergonomics.

Hank

[David Keller NC]

"I think shoulder planes were developed to fix machine made joints, where a uniform whisker needed to be removed to bring a joint together."

Adam - I'll take your word for it on the absence of paring chisels in the 18th century, though when I look at some of the Seaton chisels, I have to wonder whether they were used in the manner that we now use bevel-edged paring chisels - they're quite thin, and would serve the purpose.

But on shoulder planes being invented for machine-cut joints, I'm not so sure. I cannot find the picture at the moment, but I recall that the Duncan Phyfe chest has a metal infill shoulder plane, and (also if I'm remembering correctly), it would date from the 1820's or so. I think it's also the case that Robert Towell was producing these in London around this period of time. However, I'm not an expert on the development of small woodworking machinery that might have been present in Duncan's shop, but I'm thinking that most of the smaller, pedal-powered tools like tenoners, scroll saws, and the like were products of the 1890's. So I'd think it unlikely that the tenons produced during the course of manufacture of Phyfe furniture would have had machine-produced tenons.

It's an interesting speculation, though.

[Charles Shenk]

I originally bought the LN medium shoulder plane but quickly exchanged it for the LN small shoulder plane. I like the way it feels in the hand. I have found a myriad of uses for it. Small planes can sometimes get into places that larger planes cannot. One thing I like about the small shoulder plane is that it can get in and clean out router made 3/4" dados which I encounter a lot.