Really close to purchase decision

[Greg Schumacher]

Hey all. Thanks for all of the info that I've gained from you in the past few weeks.

I am about one step away from making the plunge into the laser engraver realm and have a question before so doing.

I would like to make some "wooden" coins. Probably about the size of a coaster but maybe even a little smaller where I would engrave on both sides of the wood.

Does anyone know of a source or solution on doing that without the company's logo or insignia on the back of the product?

Thanks again
Greg Schumacher

[Frank Corker]

Hi Greg, I'm not sure about your question, maybe I'm just reading it wrong. Are you asking if anyone is doing them? If yes, I would imagine so. As to how to do them, it would be a doddle (walk in the park) with some decent thickness wood. Ray Mighells and George M Perzel are both able to supply beautiful wood which is ideal for this type of project.

[John Noell]

It is quite easy to lay out your circles, engrave, then cut the circles out , then flip them over and engrave the other side. Putting them back into the holes they came from makes alignment automatic. :)

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Hey all. Thanks for all of the info that I've gained from you in the past few weeks.

I am about one step away from making the plunge into the laser engraver realm and have a question before so doing.

I would like to make some "wooden" coins. Probably about the size of a coaster but maybe even a little smaller where I would engrave on both sides of the wood.

Does anyone know of a source or solution on doing that without the company's logo or insignia on the back of the product?

Thanks again
Greg Schumacher

Greg,
Will you have a hole in your coin? Are you calling it a coin or could it be anything like a "round 2 it" or keychain?

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=877798#poststop

Here is a link to some that I have done and the round one on the left was a 2 sided one and we made a template in acrylic that left the hole proud so it became the registration point. The rest was rastered off to make it about a 1/16" deep circle so that sat in place. If you are doing volumes of them you can make a few jigs so you are filling one while the other is lasering and just swap them out.

Mine are made out of the 3mm Russian Birch ply that I have and I put a clear coat on both sides. To me it is cheaper to make our own and engrave them than to buy someone else's blank and then have to handle each one 4 times instead of 3. Depending on size, let's use 1 7/16" diameter, it can run pennies, or actually 0.01875 cents, in material costs plus your laser time. I can personally attest to the durability of the plywood because I left one in a pocket one time and it made it through the washer and dryer unaffected.

Now if you are making coasters you may want a thicker product and George has what you need for a solid wood one but you may want to get the cork also. It all depends on what your end product is and what your clients want.

Also if you are lasering both sides you will probably want to clear coat both sides before and after you laser them. Before so it is easier to clean up and not change the detail by a sanding mistake or discoloration from trying to clean with a solution. After because you want to seal your work so the moisture won't soak in and swell or discolor your product.

Hope this helps and ...

[Wolf Nitsch]

Sealing both sides works very well keeping the smoke effect off, along with a little furniture polish and as stated earlier you can just turn them over and have a self made jig from the remaining product.


Wolf

[Greg Schumacher]

Great Ideas and thanks to all for the suggestions.

Here is my idea....I'm a football referee and do many post season / playoff games. I would like to make 7 coins, using one of them for the initial flip before kick-off and give to the coaches and all other officials before the beginning of the game as a memento of their accomplishments for the year. The design would have pics of their team's helmets on the front and the HS Activities Assoc Logo on the back.

Thanks to All again.

Frank, how do I find those two sources that you mentioned?

[Frank Corker]

They are both members here on SMC. Private message them.

Ray is here
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=7921

and Geroge is here
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=2842

[Greg Schumacher]

Super, thanks.

[David Dustin]

Greg,
Have you prepared yourself for the possibility that this new endeavor will not be as profitable as you had hoped?

Of course I am assuming you are planning on making money.

We entered into this with a very good plan and lots of product ideas but have struggled to "make it".

This forum and the people here are the bright spot in the entire thing.
They have helped us in many, many ways.

The illusion is that if you "build it, they will come" meaning products and the required customers...


Just be really sure this is what you want to do and if possible, buy a used machine. You'll save a lot of money.

David

[Greg Schumacher]

Thanks for the advice. I know that this isn't an easy endeavor, otherwise everyone would be doing it....I'm really looking at it from a hobby standpoint with occasional ideas that may create some cashflow to offset the machine cost.

Shoot it can't do worse than my 401K.

Thanks

[Greg Schumacher]

So if I were to look at a used machine...will I be able to learn to use it without any training from the sales guy? Also, what do I need to worry about from a used perspective....makes me a little nervous to spend a lot of money and then end up with a dead horse.

Any advice with respect to this?

Thanks again

[Mike Null]

Greg

I suggest you fill out your profile which would provide additional contact info plus your location.

We have at least 3 members who sell used equipment and based on my knowledge of them I would recommend all three.

Rob Bosworth
Mike Mckenzie
Roy Brewer

You might also contact Andy Wingfield who may know of some used equipment.

[David Dustin]

Gregg,
If you think your sales guy is going to be in contact with you after you buy, then you may be in for a rude awakening.
I am NOT speaking for all, but the majority of them will not call you after the purchase has been made.
We have not heard from ours since the day we took delivery of the machine.
The distributor has been great, but the sales guy was not impressive in any way. He took his commission and moved on.

You will find plenty of help here.

Particularly if you are going to use it for hobby work.
Just my 2 cents.

David

[Scott Shepherd]

I'd agree with David. In my opinion, 90% of what they demo or show you on a laser at the sales pitch won't make you enough money to pay rent. It looks neat, people will love it, but is there a market for it? In most cases, probably not enough market. Keep in mind, they sell 100's and 100's of these a year (each manufacturer), so if making some trinket is so profitable, and they've sold 100's and 100's of machines that can make it, then the market gets small really quickly.

In my opinion, there are a number of things that will really make you money on the laser. They aren't fun, they aren't sexy, they don't make great gifts, etc., etc. However, they do make you money.

Every one of them has been posted on this forum and most people ignore them because they aren't fun, sexy, don't make great gifts, etc.

The number one selling point I have seen is photographs. Super cool stuff. It shows well, people love it, everyone raves about it, but no one buys it. I know there are a small number of people on this forum who do make money with them, but I'd bet money the majority of people who own lasers who thought they would engrave photos into wood and granite have never sold enough of them to pay the bills. It ain't easy. You simply can't spend 30 minutes removing backgrounds and fixing colors, then 30 minutes engraving it, $10 in material, and charge $29.50 to sell it. You'll go broke, and no one wants to pay you $30 for the graphics work, $30 to engrave it, and then $10 in material. At $70, you're out of the price point for the average consumer.

[David Dustin]

I think it would be great if there was a way to setup something like mfg.com (not a plug btw) where they connect suppliers with customers but with an emphasis on the products we can do.

The providers submit bids on products and the customer chooses based on their own criteria. It is not a bidding war as the bidders do not ever know what the others quote or even who they are.

Wouldn't it be in the best interest of the Manufacturers to foster something like this or is it better (for them) to keep the illusion alive?

I know.... don't worry..... be happy

[Scott Shepherd]

That would worry me David. It would worry be because you'd have someone with a laser who doesn't offer service with their product. It would, in fact, allow anyone and everyone with a laser to bid against each other. While that sounds healthy, it's not healthy when you bid $50 to make a laser engraved photograph on a piece of granite, but when someone bids it at $15 because they are bored and have nothing better to do, then where's the service to the industry?

I'm on bid lists now where people will bid anything just to get the job. Doesn't matter if they make money or not. I have to work hard now to bid jobs in my area. I provide a service, a good service, and I'm very interactive with my customers, offering them healthy advice for their needs, which they appreciate. I'm not sure I'd be too happy to go head to head with someone working out part time out to their home, using this as a hobby, not a business, who's 10 states away from me, offering no service.

You think you're having a hard time making money now, open up every single bid to 1000's of people and see how much you make.

Careful what you wish for :)

[Dee Gallo]

Great Ideas and thanks to all for the suggestions.

Here is my idea....I'm a football referee and do many post season / playoff games. I would like to make 7 coins, using one of them for the initial flip before kick-off and give to the coaches and all other officials before the beginning of the game as a memento of their accomplishments for the year. The design would have pics of their team's helmets on the front and the HS Activities Assoc Logo on the back.

Greg- sounds like you might be better off with anodized coins, they are flashy, come in colors and would flip more like real coins than wood. Less work for you too, just raster and go. But seriously, buying a laser just to make 7 coins? You must have other things in mind to use it for too, no?

just a suggestion, dee

[David Dustin]

Steve,
I think you are correct and I am wrong.

[Mark Winlund]

Gregg,
If you think your sales guy is going to be in contact with you after you buy, then you may be in for a rude awakening.
I am NOT speaking for all, but the majority of them will not call you after the purchase has been made.
We have not heard from ours since the day we took delivery of the machine.
The distributor has been great, but the sales guy was not impressive in any way. He took his commission and moved on.

David

Amen. To understand this from the sales rep's point of view, you have to realize that every minute spent helping you after you give him a check is money lost. All of his expenses come out of the commission he gets. It is a balancing act... enough help so you don't get angry, but not so much that he loses too much money.

The automotive industry learned this a long time ago... it is why the warranty comes from the factory, and not the dealer. The factory pays the dealer for parts and labor, so except for having an unhappy customer, the dealer (and salesman) are not out much cash when things go wrong.

In our industry, the salesman is not compensated for that second (or third) trip out to hold your hand.

Mark

[David Dustin]

Mark,
But then when we hand deliver a rush project, follow up with a phone call to make sure the customer is happy with their order, what does that cut into?

I get the impression most of the people here are very conscientious about their products and services, and that we go the extra mile as a matter of practice rather than the exception.

Its a bit of a downer to know we don't receive the same consideration.
Of course this is a generality and not all sales people fit into the first group (no offense to those of you here that really do go the extra mile).
Hope this isn't a thread hi-jack..
David

[Mark Winlund]

I'd agree with David. In my opinion, 90% of what they demo or show you on a laser at the sales pitch won't make you enough money to pay rent. It looks neat, people will love it, but is there a market for it? In most cases, probably not enough market. Keep in mind, they sell 100's and 100's of these a year (each manufacturer), so if making some trinket is so profitable, and they've sold 100's and 100's of machines that can make it, then the market gets small really quickly.

Scott has hit the nail square on. Laser engraving has become a hobby, not a business. How many posts on this forum are from hobby types that haven't a clue about running a business? The type that posts "I just got my laser machine, how do I get it to work with my computer? How do I make money with it? For most of these people, it's too late.. the money is already gone, and they don't know what to do.

The people that make money with lasers are people like Rodne... well established, in the engraving business for years. For Rodne, the laser is just another tool in an arsenal of tools.

It's as if you go down to Harbor freight and buy a saw, then hang a shingle outside of your garage saying "cabinetmaking done here". It can be done, but it involves many years of losing money, learning, and investing money in more tools.

Sorry to be such a wet blanket, but this is what I have learned in the 30+ years in the engraving business.

Mark

[Mark Winlund]

Mark,
But then when we hand deliver a rush project, follow up with a phone call to make sure the customer is happy with their order, what does that cut into?

I get the impression most of the people here are very conscientious about their products and services, and that we go the extra mile as a matter of practice rather than the exception.

Its a bit of a downer to know we don't receive the same consideration.
Of course this is a generality and not all sales people fit into the first group (no offense to those of you here that really do go the extra mile).
Hope this isn't a thread hi-jack..
David

Yes, I agree with everything you have said. My own business survives (Just barely lately!) on excellent customer service. Consider this.... Is your sales rep rich? Does he drive up in a new, expensive car? Outside direct sales is a really hard way to make a living. When he sells a system to an experienced engraver, the potential for some profit is there. When the sale is to a hobbyist, or someone that just lost his job and is looking for a miracle cure for his problems, the profit potential (for the sales rep) is much smaller.

Think about it. The chinese machine that cost $5k... how can they do it? Low labor rates, no warranty or service, and poor quality. The difference is mostly in the service... which for most people, comes from the sales rep.

Mark

[Doug Griffith]

They aren't fun, they aren't sexy, they don't make great gifts, etc., etc. However, they do make you money.

I wholeheartedly agree. Many of the items I laser are unrecognizable components of something or other. They are usually in large quantities so I just hit the run button and do something else productive while waiting. Hopefully setting up files for another job.

I have probably never made any "real" money on anything fun or sexy. They are usually in smaller quantities and there is just too much file finagling... and I consider myself fast at it.

Cheers,
Doug

[Mike Null]

Like the others here who make their living from engraving I don't have time to make the pretty or fancy things that the hobbyists make but I do make a living.

I don't think you can make a living or even pay for your machine by making gifty type things. It's not that they're not saleable but that most people don't have the marketing skills to sell them.

One thing too many hobbyists have in common is that they under-price their work which does impact those of us trying to make a living.

[Andy Wingfield]

Hi Greg,

If you purchase a used or new laser from Trotec, the rep can't get paid till you have signed of on an extensive list of things you need to know about the operation of your laser to be proficient. My personal feeling is the reps who don't keep in contact with their customers are short sighted. Allot large percentage of my customers purchase a second laser, purchase Thermark etc. Also staying in contact with your customers also helps the relationship thing, which leads to good references.

Regards,

[Bob Keyes]

If you are looking for blanks for the coins take a look at Wooden Nickel. They sell them in several sizes ready to laser.

Good luck.