good lacquer finishes

[Michael Pyron]

I'm about to start the finishing of some wood work that will be in a restaurant (as I noted in my post about bubbles being sprayed with an HVLP gun) and am seeking some advice from some of you all about what would be a good product.

First off, I'm wondering which is more long lived, pre-cat or air dry. I'm more concerned about the finish lasting for years (i.e. not crazing, peeling, etc.) as opposed to scratch resistance. I'm thinking that pre-cat will tend to start failing sooner than air dry, but obviously I don't know as I'm asking here.

What are some proven products? Locally, Austin Tx, I can get Mohawk from Benjamin Moore, Gemini Coatings (which I'm tending to lean away from for various reasons) from Kelley Moore and whatever other products they may carry, and Sherwin Williams products. I'm definitely NOT going to use gloss, most likely semi gloss or perhaps satin. I will be using a vinyl sealer because of its superior moisture resistance and lacquer sticks to it nicely. The wood being used will all be Cherry, which might need a product which doesn't leave a tint, though actually I'm not too concerned about that as the stuff I'm getting is pretty darned light (by choice) and of course cherry darkens over time. I'm using lacquer because I'm familiar with it and also because it is easy/safe to re-coat (repair) as it burns itself in. I'm certainly not in the mood to try out a waterborne product because I'm already dealing with my usual hair pulling learning curve with the HVLP problems and also because I have an aluminum pressure pot which really won't go well with a waterborne product (yes I use liners, but the lid will still get exposure). A conversion varnish might be an option though I've never used that product before, and from what I hear it is rather tricky.

TIA for any replies

[Joe Chritz]

It has been a while since I used any lacquer but the pre-cat is tougher than NC. Post catalyzed is supposed to be better yet but I haven't used any myself.

If you want real durability get away from lacquer and go with a conversion varnish or a 2k polyurethane finish.

Personally I would go with a good waterborne finish and not worry as much about dying from fumes or making my shop a smoking hole. The good solvent finishes are hazardous to spray.

Some good finishes are Target coatings (water base), Fuhr (both), and Ml Campbell (both).

The tougher the finish generally the harder it is to spray well. Lacquer and especially NC lacquer is pretty fool proof to spray. Some of the others not so much from what I have heard.

Joe

[Matthew Voss]

because it is easy/safe to re-coat (repair)

I would go with a high solids pre-cat lacquer. CV is not that hard to use, but there is not much difference in durability, and the CV is NOT easily repairable. Also, CV is quite thick and could pose some spray equipment issues, depending on your set up.

Sherwin Williams makes an excellent pre-cat lacquer (Sherwood Hi-Build Pre-cat) that also contains a UV absorber.

My suggestion (after this job) is to start making the move to WB finishes...

[Stephen Bunch]

I use the General Finishes water based pre cat....excellent product.

[Steve Jenkins]

two years ago I made and finished 40 tables for a restaurant with a waterborne finish that was specified and I had to refinish all of them at my expense. Within a couple weeks the finish was looking really bad on most of the tables. If alcohol got on the finish or water sat on it for any length of time it softened and caused the finish to either melt or delaminate. If you are going to use a waterborne do some testing first. It's worth the price of a gallon to make some samples and see what happens with alcohol or water on the finish for an hour or three. I know that since it was specified I shouldn't have had to bear the expense of refinishing but it would have cost a lot more to get a lawyer involved.
My choice of finish is Valspar conversion varnish. It is a 2 part finish that works really easily. Recently I had to strip a small table that I had finished with it and the KS3 stripper didn't even soften the finish.

[Tony Bilello]

or regular catalyzed lacquer are pretty bulletproof. Catalyzed lacquer whether you mix yourself or pre-catalyzed are both very long lived. Dont believe me? Look at any furniture you may have or see that is 50 years old and they are still in good shape.The regular air dried lacquer is a cheap product used by cabinet makers and will never survive as a table top coating.

Sherwin Willaims makes a good pre-catalyzed lacquer.

As for primers, I rarely use them when I use pre-cat lacquer. I dont feel a primer is necessary. If you use pre-cat lacquer and are thinking of using something other than a lacquer primer, call tech support for your pre-cat lacquer and listen to what they say. Dont second guess them.

As for gloss or or semi-gloss or satin, that is a matter of personal preference. If it is a goods looking wood, ALWAYS build all of your coats with a high gloss first the only use the semi or satin on your last coat.
Unless you go with a water-white or a conversion varnish, most finishes have that amber tint. Without that amber tint, most wood look 'dead'. Again, the manufacturers know what looks best and what most people prefer. Water-white and conversion varnishes look best where you are putting a clear coat over a color as opposed to over a wood.

I never liked the results from a HVLP gun on furniture or fine woods. It seems to put out too much fluid and build the layers too thick. This again is a personal preference. I just like a conventional gun.

Good luck in whatever your choice.

[Jim Becker]

'Just a note for the many weekend warriors that may be reading this thread...many of the finishes being discussed are not something you want to use if you do not have proper spray facilities and top-notch safety gear. Nasty stuff...

[Michael Pyron]

@Matthew, I did make sure the Binks Mach 1 SL was water compatible for future possible use in that area....the one thing about water borne products though is that (from what I've read) they don't repair easily...yep, lacquer is nasty stuff and a respirator and good ventilation is necessary...unfortunately the use of a SS pressure pot is mandated with water products, and that is a very pricey proposition...as noted, I am aware of water borne products and at some point I'm sure I will move to them....except for table tops....

@Steve, I've found PPG DCA 468 to be the best table top finish (yes, I am quite aware that it is an automotive product)...my kitchen table is about 20 years old and except for damage cause by cats it is holding up just fine...the wet bars I made a few years ago for a lounge that have 15 coats of the stuff are still in great condition, the protection of the finish that is...they have received quite a bit of use and do show it!...the downside to the stuff is that it costs about $200 a gallon these days...PM me if you want some mixing/application details about the stuff...

it would appear as if SW seems to be the advice I'm getting...I was happy with their high solids vinyl sealer that I used under this round of table tops, though to be honest I've never found the stuff to dry good enough for sanding until 24 hours have passed....by the directions its supposed to be sandable in about an hour, but I find that the paper gums up real bad at that point...on this project I got tired of doing the usual hand sanding and hooked up my ROS with 240 Makita sandpaper and attached it to my vacuum and got the sanding done real quick like!...traditionally I've done table tops in my garage and am limited to about 6 2'x2' tops at a time...in this case I did the finishing on site and did the equivalent of 320 SF of tops at once...that is a lot of sanding!

[Michael Pyron]

@Tony, what is the logic of using gloss then going to semi-gloss? I guess I can see it if you are spraying a lot of coats of the stuff, but I don't plan to...1 coat of vinyl sealer and 2 top coats...I really don't want the stuff that thick because of surface film thickness issues (future failure)

as far as HVLP, well I admit my Binks 2001 gun seems to spray a finer finish, but wastes a hell of a lot of material in comparison. Also for this project I'm hoping that the vastly reduced amount of overspray with the Mach 1 will allow me to get a better finish on the block paneling I will be finishing...when I did the bar stands a few years ago I had a hell of a time with overspray floating onto the panel I had just sprayed while I was spraying the adjacent one...the wet finish aspect of spraying wasn't a big problem as I figured out the proper technique fairly quickly, but the overspray was a biatch...yes, I had cross ventilation and oriented my spraying so that the overspray was hopefully pulled away from the area I had already sprayed...this specific aspect of it all is why I am going for a semi-gloss finish as opposed to a high gloss finish...in the future, when I'm sure I'll have a lot more finishing under my belt, this may not be so big of an issue, but for now it is...I've been a finish carpenter/millwork installer for the last 17 years and that is where the majority of my skills lie, finishing is something that others usually do...hence, for all effective purposes I'm an apprentice at the 'mysteries' of finishing, though I do have a fair amount of hard earned experience on the subject, but certainly not a mastery...

here's another query...I read from some manufacturers that use of an air dry vinyl sealer is OK under a pre-cat finish...from others I read the necessity of using pre-cat sealer...from my logic the latter seems sound as when a pre-cat product is sprayed over an air dry product I would think that the air dry would be re-activated and since it would take longer to dry and is also more flexible a failure of the top coat would result as the sealer coat moved while the top coat was already hardened...I 'think' I'm seeing this as the cause of my daughters cherry desk finish failure...its only about 6 years old and is failing miserably...I'm not the one who shot it, but I am pretty sure the sealer was superior coatings s2000 air dry vinyl sealer and the top coat was a superior coatings (both gemini products) pre-cat...

[Michael Pyron]

I noticed while reading the PDS of SW's high bild pre-cat lacquer that there is a note about its acidity and cautions of needing to use stainless steel....hmmm..I do use liners in the pressure pot, but will this be good enough protection, or will the top be in 'danger'?

[Joe Chritz]

Often times build coats are gloss with a final of semi gloss to give added "depth" to the finish. Semi is made with flatteners (that is the white paste stuff) and in heavy coats it can deaden the finish.

I don't spray more than two coats of final finish so I never bother.

Joe

[Tony Bilello]

a high gloss is very clear.
A satin or semi-gloss is accomplished by adding 'flattening' agents. In effect its like adding microscopis plastic beads of sorts to diffuse the light.
If all of your coats are satin finish, the light gets scattered so that you cant see the wood through the finish. The wood looks dead and lifeless. This of course is a gross exaggeration. Another exaggeration is ....did you ever look through a crackled or crinkled window glass where you can see images and colors but cant quite make out the details? Same thing.
So, if you build up all of your layers with a clear gloss, then only 'flatten' the top coat, you will still see the wood grain under it.
Antique shops are famous for satin finishes. Enough layers of satin hides many flaws.

[Michael Pyron]

since I use liners the use of Pre-cat lacquer is not issue (I don't have a SS pressure pot), and even then if its cleaned meticulously things are OK...the same goes with waterborne finishes...I can use the pot I have but would need to clean it daily to stop corrosion. no biggy as I don't leave product in a pot because I'm not a production finisher.

I chose the Sherwin Williams Hi-bild pre-cat and went with their fast dry vinyl sealer as that was their only vinyl product that could be pre-cat, the other two had to be catalyzed right before spraying and considering the difficulty of getting an exact amount of catalyst when I use 20oz at a time I chose the fast dry product as it has a shelf life of 4 months after being catalyzed at the store. I chose the medium rubbed product as a test sample and might go with the dull rubbed as it would appear the medium rubbed is still quite glossy. I will know better when I go to work Monday and see what it looks like. maybe another coat will dull it out a bit more ala Tony's comments about each coat taking away from the sheen. it looks good though I can see that its glossy enough that perfect coverage will be needed to make it look good. a flatter product would allow a bit more leeway methinks.