router table/lift vs. shaper

[joe milana]

I am considering a new router table with a lift and a "big" motor but at around $1300 plus, I wonder if a shaper would be a better option. I wonder just how substantial these lifts are. They seem "gadgety" and have lots of "do-dads" but can they really spin a 3 1/4" bit and hold up for years? I see so many tools today that are "over engineered" and "under built".

[Neal Clayton]

how are you gonna spend 1300 on a router table?

going by my list...and i thought i spent as much as possible...

quality grinding/machine made my table, about 325 dollars
bench dog lift, another 325 dollars
bought the freud fence, 100 dollars
porter cable 7518 motor only, 300 dollars

i haven't used any other lifts personally, but i think the bench dog unit can hold up over years of use. yes i've built doors and windows with it, and yes it holds up accuracy wise just fine during all-day use.

my consideration was space, i simply don't have room for another machine, i needed something that attached to my table saw.

[Peter Quinn]

I have both. I have a Jessum router lift with a 3 1/4 HP plunge router in the table and a 3HP shaper. I doubt the router, any router motor, would last for days let alone years doing what I have done on the shaper, and the shaper does it much quicker. Shaper tooling can cost more, but for larger profiles it is a relative bargain. I have done molding runs in the thousands of lineal feet in a day, not likely possible on a router table. The decision sort of depends on your volume and needs. I find the shaper fence more versatile and adjustments are easier, cuts are much smoother and require less sanding. But my router table is easier to set up for small profiles and short runs, and it allows me to put cuts in the middle of the width on a board that would be impossible with a shaper and more difficult with a freehand router. I really prefer having both.

You can get a very good router set up for significantly less than $1300. You can make a very functional table with a great router motor and a lift for less than $550. If you are looking at a new shaper, count on $1300-$2200 for an entry level 3HP model, plus $500-$1000 for a power feeder to really use the shapers potential and keep your fingers. Used shapers can be a good deal; they are tough tools meant to last a long time. Not sure my thoughts add any clarity? The two tools have some overlap in capability but are not completely interchangeable. A decent shaper costs far more to set up than a decent router table and handles production work much better, but a router table with lift is a very versatile tool that can do some light production and get you into small molding or door production cheaper.

Ever seen a shaper in action? See if you can get a look at one in use, and check out your router table options too. Spinning a 5" cutter in a shaper for the first time can or at least should be a bit unnerving the first time. Spinning a 7" panel raiser should get your attention too.

[Mike Goetzke]

What to you plan to use it for - will make a difference in your decision. I use mine for raised panel doors as well as edge forming and jointery with an Incra system. For my hobby shop I have a router table in my TS wing with a Milwaukee 5625 mounted in a Woodpeckers lift. Couldn't be happier.


Mike

[joe milana]

Neil, add a $200-$300 cabinet to your list of goods, uncle sam's share, AND Woodcraft prices (I try to support my local vendor when I can) and we're at about $1300.

It's not the money, I am just worried I wont be happy with a router lift after spending hundreds of $$$ on it and large profile bits. Kinda like buying a 1.5hp "hybrid" table saw thinking you're getting a real cabinet saw. I just want a solid piece of equipment.

[David DeCristoforo]

Don't let em fool ya "j". A router table is not a shaper substitute. Never has been... never will be. Anything you can do on a router table you can do on a shaper as well or better. Not so the other way around.

[Jamie Buxton]

Used shapers are a good way to reduce the cost. For instance, Delta has been building the same 3 hp shaper for forty years or so. They're built like battleships. You can buy it new for $2K, but you can buy a twenty-year-old one for less than half that price. craigslist in my area generally has one every couple of months.

[Steve Griffin]

I am considering a new router table with a lift and a "big" motor but at around $1300 plus, I wonder if a shaper would be a better option. I wonder just how substantial these lifts are. They seem "gadgety" and have lots of "do-dads" but can they really spin a 3 1/4" bit and hold up for years? I see so many tools today that are "over engineered" and "under built".

If I were me, I would slap a $200 router in your table saw (or small homemade router table) and then invest in a shaper. The shaper is the real deal and as mentioned already can do everything better than a router table and not cost much more.

I still like my router in the table saw for the occasional V-groove or roundover operation on small parts, but the shaper gets used for everything else. In fact every piece of milled wood I produce goes through the shaper to put a square and glassy smooth edge on it.

-Steve

[Rick Fisher]

I have both. 3hp shaper and Router table with lift etc..

They are different tools.

The shaper is used for production work. The cutters are very expensive.

The Router table is awesome because you can buy a $18.00 bit and get the job done. It may be a profile you will never use again...

I have 12 shaper bits. Combined, they cost more than my router table with lift.

If you dont have either, I would suggest the router table and lift first. Figure out your needs and maybe get a shaper down the road.

[joe milana]

Good replies as usual. I currently have a bench dog router table with a PC 2hp fixed base router. It gets the job done most of the time and even the occasional raised panel. I just dont think the "small" router would hold up long term with the larger bits. Hence the "upgrade" considerations.

[Steve Griffin]

The guy wants to spend $1300, so here's an option for about the same money--

A smaller grizzly shaper and a set of bits, plus a router collet, plus you could set up a small router table without lift with a smaller router.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-1-2-HP-Shaper/G1035. Use the 220 option if you can.

Later, maybe add a power feeder.

Or if you afford it, go with the 3HP shaper for 400bucks more.

It's always hard to give tool advice though, without knowing the scope of your woodworking needs. So this might be all wrong!
-Steve

[Rod Sheridan]

Don't let em fool ya "j". A router table is not a shaper substitute. Never has been... never will be. Anything you can do on a router table you can do on a shaper as well or better. Not so the other way around.

I agree with David.

A shaper has built in height adjustment, split fences, good chip collection and a large flat cast iron table.

This forum is full of "my router table is sagging" threads, not something you have to worry about with a shaper.

in addition a shaper;

- has reversible spindle rotation so you can flip your cutter over and cut with the grain

- reversible spindle rotation also allows you to decide if you want the cutter above or below the work piece

- cutter diameter is large so cutting geometry is excellent, the shaper actually produces shavings instead of dust.

- the ability to stack cutters in different combinations for odd profiles

- the ability to run an insert head such as the CMT that uses HSS knives for $20 to 440 per pair. Superb finish in solid wood

- the ability to use a power feeder, produces superior results and keeps your fingers away from the cutter.

- power feeder allows you to perform synchronized feeding, where the cutter is rotating in the same direction as the fed. Only possible with a feeder, reduces tear-out with difficult woods.

As David said, a shaper can do everything a router table can, and then far more, including using router bits if the shaper has a collet for them.

Regards, Rod.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Don't let em fool ya "j". A router table is not a shaper substitute. Never has been... never will be. Anything you can do on a router table you can do on a shaper as well or better. Not so the other way around.


What that guy said. They are each good (or bad) at different things. I think of the router as better for small bits of the sort that you would not likely want to have a shaper cutter for - if for no other reason: cost.
The cost of router bits is tiny by comparison to shaper cutters.

And then there's the size of the work. I don't imagine I'd want to be passing short small pieces across a shaper.

[Charles Lent]

For those who want a really sag proof router table, Peachtree Woodworking in Atlanta (www.ptree.com) is selling a cast iron router table / table saw extension that is designed to fit a unisaw or similar sized table saw. It is designed for use with an insert and has slots for mounting a fence. The fence is also available from them.

Mark Sommerfeld (www.sommerfeldtools.com) sells an extruded aluminum router table in either the insert type or with only a small hole for direct router mounting, that is also very solid. He offers a fence for it too. Santa is supposed to bring me this one.

Charley

[Larry Edgerton]

I vote shaper as well. You can easily find a good used industrial grade right now as so many companys are looking for cash. I would look for a non-Taiwan machine, but that is just me.

One of the main advantages is cutter size and the subsequent angle of cut. To see what I mean draw a 1" circle and a 2 3/4" circle. These will be representitive of a 1/4" roundover in a router bit and a shaper cutter, assuming a 3/4" bore. Now draw a line across each circle 1/4" away from the edge. Look at the difference in the angle that the cutter is leaving the workpiece. That it is so much less severe will translate into far fewer blowouts as the cutter is shaving its way out of the wood at a long angle, where with the router it is exiting the wood at a 45 degree angle, pulling the fibers away from the piece.

If you do look for new Tiawan shapers look at the MiniMax T1 copy with the sliding table, a very good value, and they copyed the machine faithfully. This machine has a longer spindle with the bearings farther apart. The advantage of this is any play that is in the bearings is less noticable as the angle is longer. For example if the cutter is three inches above the top bearing and the bearings are three inches apart [Delta and clones]a 1/100th play at the lower bearing will translate into 1/100 at the cutter. If as in the case of the MiniMax the bearing are 12" apart that same play will translate into 1/400th of an inch at the cutter.

I like to buy the real McCoy, if for no other reason than I hate the stealing of intellectual property. Tiawan making exact copys with no development cost pisses me off, and will lead to less and less development by companys that actually have an R&D department, or even know how the machines should be used for that matter.

A shaper is an investment in quality of work, and an increase in capability. It will never wear out if it is a hobby, uses less power in actual use, and has a better resale value if you decide to change hobbys. Put a router in your tablesaw for the few times that is a better option. Myself, I have not used my router table setup in years......

[Ray Newman]

Router or shaper?

IMO, it depends upon what you are honestly going to do & how much room you actually have in your shop.

Here's what Pat Warner sez 'bout the two:

http://www.patwarner.com/router_or_shaper.html

[joe milana]

Thanks for all the input. One more question...why do most shapers come with 1/4" and/or 1/2" collets? To hold router bits? What good is a typical 1/4" shank router bit spinning at only 10,000rpm?

[Rick Fisher]

My shaper came with a 1/2" collet. I just put it in a drawer. I think running big panel bits would work but cant see the point of it otherwise.

I used my old router table today to cut some dado's in very short boards. Something my shaper could never do. I use it all the time, usually when I dont own the right shaper bit and dont want to buy it.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

One major difference between the two, comes from how the cutters attach. The shaper cutters just slide onto the spindle, right to the shank, exactly the same every time, while a router bit can be positioned anywhere on the shaft of the bit. Minor detail, unless you want to repeat setups efficiently...

I used router bits in a shaper for years for cost reasons, and they work fine. Try to get the biggest bit you can find though.

One more thing, a 3 hp shaper is far more powerful then a 3 hp router. That being said though, get the biggest power shaper you can. Those big cutters love to use power.

Shaper tooling can be way expensive. One thing that has worked well for me is to buy used quality industrial type tooling off ebay. You need a power feeder for this, and make sure to deal with a reputable source. Pennies on the dollar though.

[John Carlo]

I have two router tables and 3 shapers. One of the router tables is a Craftsman from my early days. I keep a VS router with a 1/4 inch collet in it for those small profiles on small projects. The other is a JessEM Phenolic with a router lift and a 3 3/4 HP 220V Bosch router with a 1/2" collet installed. The JessEM Rout R Lift and table top do not mount flush at all checkpoints which is annoying. Yes I made all the adjustments.

I decided to go with multiple shapers so that I could run style and rail cutters and easily fine tune for fit between machines. I can also run some pretty large raised panel cutters with no sacrifice in speed VS quality of cut. I lucked out one day about 20 years ago and found a hardware store with a basement shelf full of 1/2" bore ShopSmith shaper cutters selling for the original 1050's price. So, even though I still have the "Smith" I usually keep a different spindle size on each of the shapers. Two of my shapers are Deltas and the newest is a Steel City.

[Paul Joynes]

This shaper just went up for sale in the Classified section. The price is great but the shipping will be killer. Still less than $1300 though.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=98620

[Chip Lindley]

Honestly, IMO you should learn to use a router before moving up to the shaper. A large router will do plenty of work, mounted in a table. The bits are more reasonable than big shaper cutters.

When you get to the point that your projects require profiles which cannot be milled on the router, then look into (at the least) a 3hp shaper. By this time, you will know the idiocyncracies of the router, and understand the shaper is a much more powerful machine with much more dangerous tendencies if not approached properly!