Looking for Good hand saws, Thomas Pax?

[David Eisan]

Hello there,

Christmas season is upon us, and my SO keeps asking what I want for Christmas.

I have decided on handsaws. I would like a decent hand crosscut and rip saw. I know tons about power tools, but not much about hand saws. After a small amount of searching, I am leaning towards Thomas Pax saws.

Does anyone have any opinions on Thomas Pax saws? Or other suggestions?

Thank you,

David.

[John Dykes]

Oh boy...

Chris Schwartz wrote an article that gives his take on the depth and breadth of handsaws. http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/A+Nest+Of+Saws.aspx

I'd suggest reading through that and thinking a bit more specifically about how you want to use these two saws.

Additionally, Pax doesn't get much discussion here to be honest. Wenzloff seems to get the most attention, then Lie-Nielsen, Adria, Grammercy. Lee-Valley just came out with an inexpensive dovetail saw that folks seem to like. Then there's the secondary market....

You'll find excellent help here, but read through Schwartz and narrow down your thinking a bit...

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

I own several Paxes and they're lovely saws. One of the things that I have noticed is that of my three, two came less-than-completely sharp and benefitted from a quick filing. Once that's done I have no real complaints; I aesthetically prefer the open handle on my Lie-Nielsen tenon saw (which did come razor sharp) but the Paxes are fine for extended use.

One complaint I do have about the design of them is that Paxes are usually finer toothed than the alternatives (which is why I went with the LN tenon saw; I wanted something coarse). This is not necessarily good or bad, just depends on what you do.

[Brent Smith]

Hi David,

My opinion of Pax saws differs from Graham's, I'm not a fan. As John mentioned it would help if you narrowed down your expected use of the saws.I imagine that being a Christmas present you would want it under the tree which leaves out some of the busier custom saw makers. Lee Valley has Mike W's saws, TFWW has the Gramercy line and there's always Lie-Nielsen and Adria. Most of these should be available for immediate delivery.

One other thing you should also consider is Japanese saws. There are some great bargains out there. Lee Valley sells an excellent rip Dozuki, as does BCTW. Japan Woodworker has some great saws also. I've never been to Federated, but if you have both western and Japanese there, you should play around with them and see which motion, push or pull, suits you best.

[Alan DuBoff]

You could always get a couple old saws and learn how to start sharpening them, that would go a long way to understanding what qualities you might find desirable in saws.

Buy the saws that you are interested in using and crafting with.

In my case I don't really want to dimension with handsaws, so that eliminates full size saws.

Your approach is sound, IMO, in regards to wanting a rip and a crosscut saw, you need both to make cuts depending on the grain direction.

Don't get caught up in getting too many saws to start with, not until you learn how to sharpen them. You might also consider getting a good all around rip saw and practice filing on it, then get a crosscut saw.

Lots of used saws around, you might consider getting a couple used ones to start. Good to learn how to sharpen saws while your at it, without that skill you will always be at a loss to maintain your own tools.:o

What exactly would you like to do with these saws?

That will help determine which type of saws you need.

Don't get caught up in names, get the saws to cut the type/thickness of timber you want to work.

Once you know what you want to do with them, and the type of timber you will be working with, you can better determine which saws you want.

As for brands, there are lots of good ones, Pax wouldn't be at the top of my list, but they have a good enough blade, certainly good enough to learn how to sharpen. I'd consider a couple used saws and a few files, start learning how to sharpen and then go from there. Rip is easiest to learn to sharpen, that's why I would get that one first. Lee Valley sells Wenzloff saws with pretty quick delivery, or Lie-Nielsen sells good saws, as does Adria, and various other niche makers. Hard to beat a Wenzloff, IMO. probably not much more than the PAX. LV also came out with a new dovetail saw, that is intriguing...about the same as the PAX possibly.

If you decide to go Japanese, dis-regard this entire post! :D

[Douglas Brummett]

Well here is one issue you could run up against with PAX. It is one that you would never know unless you tried to remove the handle...

http://tomfidgen.blogspot.com/2008/08/good-bad-and.html

PAX are readily available and typically better regarded than crown and lynxx brands. Obviously less care goes into mfg than with Wenzloff or craftsman made saws.

[Don Dorn]

You could always get a couple old saws and learn how to start sharpening them, that would go a long way to understanding what qualities you might find desirable in saws.


I did just that - with a Crown gents saw, I tried Frank Klausz's method of tuning a saw and was thrilled with the results. I would have never guessed there could have been that much difference. That said, I just ordered the new LV saw based on reviews here and since I'm not afraid of sharpening it, hopefully, it will make a good saw for many years. Your advise is very sound in my opinion.

[Andrew Homan]

Hello there,
I would like a decent hand crosscut and rip saw.

I think that some of the negative and luke-warm comments above were actually directed at Pax tenon and dovetail saws, not at the hand saws. I understand the original poster's question to be about the longer Pax handsaws, which range from 22" to 28". Some of the comments above refer to actually using the saws, but several do not, so I'm disappointed that forum participants are so quick to pass judgement on tools that they may not have used! As for judgments about price, you could have 3 pax hand saws (a fine tpi crosscut, a coarse crosscut, and a rip) for not much more than the price of one tapered 26" handsaw by a custom builder. I'm certain that the custom saws are wonderful, but for someone starting out, getting a full kit from Pax is within reach to many. Note that I am not recommending the joinery saws.

I have been using Pax hand saws in my shop for about 3 years. I started with two 22" saws -- the ones available from Lee Valley -- and eventually purchased a longer, coarser crosscut saw from another retailer. At first I was using the 22" crosscut, which has a higher tooth count per inch, in boards that were actually too thick for its tpi. Now that I have the choice to use the lower tpi 26" saw, these three saws handle most of my needs for sawing lumber by hand. (I have done all my sawing with hand saws -- so I've easily sawn through hundreds of feet with these three saws.) They have been a joy to use, and my sawing has gone from poor to highly proficient -- I can now easily rip at 90 degrees on a line, or crosscut boards in such a manner that it only takes a minute for me to plane the endgrain square.

These saws are produced by a company that is rather "faceless" on these forums, so if your goal is to purchase from a custom builder whom you know, then they might not be the right choice. However, they are far from being the "low-end" product that they are sometimes implied to be by comments on internet forums. If you do choose to go with Pax hand saws, I think that you will have some excellent sawing in your future!
-Andy

[Alan DuBoff]

I did just that - with a Crown gents saw, I tried Frank Klausz's method of tuning a saw and was thrilled with the results. I would have never guessed there could have been that much difference. That said, I just ordered the new LV saw based on reviews here and since I'm not afraid of sharpening it, hopefully, it will make a good saw for many years. Your advise is very sound in my opinion.
Don,

I often recommend just that, a Crown gent's saw to start. It's cheap and is a good little saw after you get it sharpened. Great little saw to put a new handle on also.

The new LV saw is quite interesting. Rob Lee has outdone Henry Disston in being able to produce a handsaw with little hand work, and I mean this in a good way. Disston would have marveled at the quality of saw that could be produced with little in the way of hands touching it during manufacturing. In that regard, the LV dovetail saw offers quite a value, I know that I certainly couldn't produce a saw at that price, in that quality, I admit that.

One day those saws may eclipse folks like me wanting to make their own saws, there will be little value for folks to do that, most likely...akin it to the blacksmiths being eclipsed by modern machines that put them out of business.

One nice thing about the LV saw also is that you can change the handle if you prefer and would like to experiment with a different hang, so you could have multiple handles that might be suited for different tasks, although I suspect few would do that, it can be done though.

Only thing, you should get a crosscut saw to compliment your rip saws! Maybe would be good to try refiling your Crown saw to crosscut! :)

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Changing the hang would be a little more involved on the new LV back saw. One could make slight changes. The give a heck is the through bolt. Same issue applies to changing the angle of a tote on a plane as they use the same through bolt.

Take care, Mike

[David Keller NC]

In my opinion, there are a lot of better options than PAX saws. I had a couple that I used for a few years because I didn't know any better - I ditched them at a yard sale. The steel was fine, but the handles make these saws just plain unacceptable. Not only are they ugly, but they're quite uncomfortable in high use because of the sharp arrises. They're there because they're quickly shaped on industrial equipment - pretty much the same as template routing. That's OK for certain kinds of woodworking, but not for tools.

If money is a factor, buy a used Disston, Spear and Jackson, or Simmonds off of e-bay from the pre 1930's vintage and have it re-sharpened/re-set by one of the saw filing gurus like Mike Wenzloff, Tom Law, etc... You'll get a superbly shaped handle, very good steel, and something you can use for years and then sell it for nearly the same money you paid for it (sometimes more in certain cases).

If you're willing to spend more, get a Wenzloff if you want a hand saw. If you want a backsaw (such as a tenon, dovetail, or carcass), then your options are considerably broader - Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, Grammercy (Tools for Working Wood), Adria, Wenzloff & Sons, etc...

[Marcus Ward]

If I can throw in my 2 cents (really worth less than that, probably). The pax handles look terrible. (my opinion). If you're going to spend cash on a saw, buy from the people who are here supporting us as woodworkers. Mike Wenzloff, who really has his plate full just making saws, is here posting, helping, and he answers emails from reprobates like myself seeking knowledge. When I have money to spend on a new tool, I throw it at the guys who help us.

[Joel Moskowitz]

I feel compelled to throw in my 2 cents.
I built my portable workbench with PAX handsaws. They came sharp, properly set, and tensioned. Pax hand files all it's handsaws (not the backsaws) and I was very pleased. The handles look clunky but I go back and forth of which I prefer for long sessions of sawing. The Pax or the thinner Disston hand saws I have. The Disstons have a thinner blade - which is good, but the thinner handles feels harsher to me.

The fit and finish on the saws isn't great - and that understandably turns a lot of people off but as a functional saw they work as well as other handsaw makers on the market - try them back to back and see. Sure I would love to see a fancier tool from them - but considering they sell a 26" hand filed, hand tensioned saw for $110 bucks or so you can't expect the fanciness of a saw costing 2-3 times as much. They also don't do custom work - they can but it's not their thing.

The Flinn company which makes PAX, Lynx, Garlick and other saws is a tiny company and like Mike W a family operation. They should be commended for producing a functionally great - if not esthetically great handsaw for a very good price. It's not a choice for everyone but I'm pretty pleased with my saws.

[Alan DuBoff]

The Flinn company which makes PAX, Lynx, Garlick and other saws is a tiny company and like Mike W a family operation. They should be commended for producing a functionally great - if not esthetically great handsaw for a very good price. It's not a choice for everyone but I'm pretty pleased with my saws.
Just so we're all on the same page, I've attached some of these saws.

The gent saw looks a lot like a Crown, but maybe it's better.

What I know by looking at those saws is that the materials look like indeed quality materials, but the craftsmanship is low. Most everything on those saws is done by machine. The design has no feeling to it for me.

This is an example of what people would accept, and I think it was a sad statement for the crafts, in general, this is yet one example in woodworking, with hand tools.

This is exactly the market that Rob Lee is after with the new LV dovetail saw. I would most certainly take the Vertias dovetail saw over one of these Pax, Lynx, Garlick, or whatever other name they want to market them by. How many names does this Finnish family have?

Comparing those saws to Wenzloff saws is laughable though, or any of the other quality saws (LN, Adria, Lunn,SpruceMill, Medallian Toolworks, etc...).

Pete Taran changed the playing field, and I still consider LN to be one of the premier leaders in Handsaws today. I admire the style and quality of all their tools, TLN gets my nod...makes me feel like I wanna hop on my horse and go pickup one of these tool sets. TLN is a class act. They probably ship more handsaws than any other tool vendor, IMO, but I don't know the numbers...:o

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/jts_lg.jpg

Now look at these attached images...the first few are PAX/Lynx/Lynx and LN and Wenzloff after.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Alan,
if you read my posting you should have realized I am speaking about their handsaws, not their backsaws. I compete with Flinn on backsaws and I think ours are a lot better -they cost more too. LV is the only company competing with Flinn on price and to do that and get a better saw they had to go very high tech - which is an impressive achievement. I am sure that if Flinn decided to make a 200+ handsaw it would look a lot better, and if Mike had the urge to wholesale handsaws that sold retail $100 his wouldn't look nearly as nice as they currently do.

But fortunately the world is a big place and there is a market for $100 handsaws that work greatl but look not so great AND $200+ handsaws that look fabulous and also work great.

[Richard Magbanua]

Just my 2 cents... If you have an interest in using handsaws a great place to start would be finding a used handsaw in an antique mall, flea market or on the 'bay and then teach yourself how to refurbish them and then sharpen them for either rip or crosscut. Get a triangular file and a saw setter -you can get both new for under 30 bucks. I wasn't to interested in sharpening saws at first but I found out it was an integral part of using western handsaws. And it wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be, really.

As far as back saws, I got a Crown gents saw last Father's Day. I stoned it a bit and have to say that It cuts very well. I could be way off, but It seems that you pay premium prices mostly for the handles. Of course I'm sure it is well worth it. Some of them are just works of art. But for someone starting out with little experience and or cash, a "lowly" Crown or Pax is a great saw to have. If someone told me I had to get a Wenzloff to perform good joinery I may never have slipped down this slope in the first place. Now don't misunderstand me, someday I WILL get a Wenzloff (and a Grammercy, and a LN, and an Adria...:rolleyes:)

The slope is still there, just remember to grease it sometimes.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

...I am sure that if Flinn decided to make a 200+ handsaw it would look a lot better, and if Mike had the urge to wholesale handsaws that sold retail $100 his wouldn't look nearly as nice as they currently do. ...
You do know who is (probably) making the spendy Disstons, eh? Not any better than the Flinn line up as regards styling.

As for Flinn, are they still using C80 spec steel (our 1080 spec)?

Keep watching. $100 hand saws have been on the want list for some time. And we'll do less expensive back saws as well. I don't think anyone will lightly compare them to Flinn's work. And we'll use 1095 steel.

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan,
if you read my posting you should have realized I am speaking about their handsaws, not their backsaws.
Ok, their handsaws might be better than the backsaws, I don't know. I don't own any full size handsaws other than an old crappy craftsman, it was pictured recently in some Foley pics, it's on the wall of the garage behind my Foley retoother.

I compete with Flinn on backsaws and I think ours are a lot better -they cost more too. LV is the only company competing with Flinn on price and to do that and get a better saw they had to go very high tech - which is an impressive achievement.
I agree, and even though I've been critical of the Veritas design in regards to not (EDIT) wanting one myself, it appears to be an excellent saw which meets professional standards (i.e., professional craftsmen can use it and enjoy it).

I am sure that if Flinn decided to make a 200+ handsaw it would look a lot better, and if Mike had the urge to wholesale handsaws that sold retail $100 his wouldn't look nearly as nice as they currently do.
Well, it's all in the handle, IMO. LV does a good job at a handle that appears to be completely machined. I think it is possible, and LN is a good case in point. They have machined handles these days for the most part, from the looks of it, but they still can meet enormous demand and supply a healthy amount of saws to the industry. Fit and finish, LN is the company to shoot for, IMO, in terms of QTY. MikeW makes a better saw, period. But that doesn't take away from the fact that LN has been producing quality handsaws for quite a number of years now, thanks to Pete Taran.

I will say that I have questioned the saw kits that you sell, since I find them pricey for the most part. But in making handsaws, working with these parts, and knowing them better now, I know why...labor is a killer at everything, and even kits require a certain amount of labor.

Rob Lee is more like Henry Disston to me. I almost hate to say that, I might get bombarded with spittle. But Disston would be proud of Rob, he really one-up'd Disston in regards to being able to produce a quality saw with very little touch of hands. Much better than Disston evolved/erroded into.

BTW, I consider the Grammercy saws right up there with the other quality saws, but SMC wouldn't let me add any more pics to that last post...:(

I like your carcass saw, and you have done a great deal of research in designing your saws, I admire that aspect. :)

I think there's a market at the top end, aside from the $100 saws. There are people that wouldn't mind dropping $500-$1000 on a saw, IMO, the trick is creating one that attracts those folks. ;)

Mike raises a good question on the steel they use. I noticed on the Rockwell site for the Disston saws that they use CS80. I don't know too much about that, but 1095 (would that be CS95?) works well. Isn't that what you use?

I'd like to understand if there is anything better than 1095, if so I would possibly try it.

[eric auer]

Also consider European Bow Saws, they can handle multiple tasks with different blades.
http://www.adriatools.com/ece/saws/bowsaw.html

[Joel Moskowitz]

You do know who is (probably) making the spendy Disstons, eh? Not any better than the Flinn line up as regards styling.

As for Flinn, are they still using C80 spec steel (our 1080 spec)?

Keep watching. $100 hand saws have been on the want list for some time. And we'll do less expensive back saws as well. I don't think anyone will lightly compare them to Flinn's work. And we'll use 1095 steel.

Take care, Mike

Mike,
that's great news! we will all be waiting. The Disston saws are made in the UK I don't know by who my guess is either Flinn or Roberts and Lee. I don't know if Crown makes it's own saws if they do then they would actually be my top guess.
joel

[Joel Moskowitz]

ALan,
thanks for your kind remarks on our saws. I am glad you appriciate why the kits costs what they do. The money in the saws is all in the hand filing, hammer setting, etc and the brass work. I think it makes a big difference and is worth the effort. Just consistently setting teeth so that it's right and there isn't a ripple in the saw plate takes a certain amount of time and skill. but by the same token you want a tiny amount of random variation so that the saw cuts smoother. The brass backs are also compartively expensive. it's not just the bending but the finishing afterwards and all the fancy chamfers that make it look nice. Lots and lots of handwork.

There is a market for a $500 handsaw but it would be custom saw. that's not us. What we are interested in doing is producing professional quality PRODUCTION tools that have the traditional sense of design, elegance, utility, and most of all function.


PS - our saws are 1095 steel

[Pedder Petersen]

Hi Joel,

fwiw: Roberts and Lee saws will become a line of Thomas Flinn & Co. Saws: http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/acatalog/NEWS-_ROBERTS___LEE_SAWS.COMING_SOON_.html

Probably Disston is just another line.

Cheers
Pedder

[Joel Moskowitz]

Hi Joel,

fwiw: Roberts and Lee saws will become a line of Thomas Flinn & Co. Saws: http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/acatalog/NEWS-_ROBERTS___LEE_SAWS.COMING_SOON_.html

Probably Disston is just another line.

Cheers
Pedder

I suppose that doesn't surprise me but it's sad. Roberts and Lee was run by Mr. Roberts and this means another family run business is lost.

[Alan DuBoff]

There is a market for a $500 handsaw but it would be custom saw. that's not us. What we are interested in doing is producing professional quality PRODUCTION tools that have the traditional sense of design, elegance, utility, and most of all function.
Certainly this is not the only area I can compete in, but it is the area in which I am interested for myself. Since I primarily want to make the tools I use to craft with, I'd like to have my own saws, if possible.

I suppose that doesn't surprise me but it's sad. Roberts and Lee was run by Mr. Roberts and this means another family run business is lost.
I'm not sure it's sad. The woodworking industry has suffered for many agonizing years with these poor quality tools. Look at the tools, they have no life, they are dead. There is very little craftsmanship in them, look at the handles? They use decent materials, but do little to produce a quality tool with them, IMO.

People do not want to buy these dead products anymore, and if you compare it to a LN saw, well, most average hobbyists are capable of making that choice.

The one person that is really innovating in the hand tool area is Rob Lee. This is why I referred to him being like Henry Disston, since it is irony that automation is still one of the areas which erodes craftsmanship...but it does drive us forward for the most part.

How about those LN tool sets? What a class act...

What do you think about a new saw vise? I have mentioned this to a few folks and nobody really thinks there's a market, but think about all the handsaws that are being sold these days...a lot of craftsmen are buying quality saws. More and more folks will be in the market for a quality, modern saw vise. I don't see all of these folks sending their saws out to be sharpened for them, it's like sending your underwear out to be cleaned...

I keep thinking magnetic, where you have knobs that rotate the poles into position, and thuuuuunnnnnnnk. Rotate them back to open the jaws.

[Joel Moskowitz]

What do you think about a new saw vise?

As I said in Berea, We think there's a market for something good and not too expensive.

[Brian Ward]

As I said in Berea, We think there's a market for something good and not too expensive.

Perhaps in the form of some sort of kit, a "you supply your own jaws" sort of thing?