What Size Jointer?

[Ned Ladner]

What Size Jointer?
I'm just getting set up in the woodworking hobby and plan to get into furniture building. I'm researching jointers and I don't want to spend any more that $1500 (including tax, shipping, etc.). Although I'm a beginner (at 49), I want to purchase one that will meet my needs for many years.

I realize that my needs are very vague, but I would appreciate any detailed guidance and recommendations regarding 6" vs. 8" jointers. Also, how important is parallelogram vs. dovetail way?

I've considered the Powermatic 54A and 60B; the 60B has poor ratings on Amazon. A local dealer has both of these Powermatics and he also has an 8" Shop Fox model 1741. Any comments on these machines.

When things seem too good to be true, they usually are. Grizzly prices are extremely low when compared to Powermatic, Delta, etc. How can they sell so low, or is the equipment sub-par? Their machines look good on their website and I've read a number of good reviews. Comments please?

Thanks for any input.

[Dewey Torres]

Number 1... skip the 6 inch.
I have one and if I had to do it again I would not have gotten it. Only for capacity reasons though as it is a great jointer.

Number 2... Shop fox and Griz are the same company. One is online and another is brick and mortar

Number 3... Powermatic is, in most cases the GOLD STANDARD.
It is not just a marketing ploy. It is very true to up until you hit a VERY higher price point such as European models like Minimax and Felder.

Number 4... COMBO:confused:
If you don't yet have a planer, consider a jointer/planer combo like this Jet Planer/Jointer Combos. (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkmtU.DVJpBQBjFRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE2dnUyZm0 1BHNlYwNvdi10b3AEY29sbwNzazEEdnRpZANIMTg0XzgyBHBvc wMx/SIG=1gdghmv8u/EXP=1228360148/**http%3a//rc12.overture.com/d/sr/%3fxargs=15KPjg1%252DJSmJamwryrc7nJSuOByloNgszv%25 5F8JsCpN%252DGNRe8XN7ALxyb6XGnsZ8SeVv5wfGnK%252DZ% 255FaMVLPT5mPiOEAiOTVKPHOr52YjSnNUwMq%252DoUdRFgrA pgtzRwYtMO3kPZWewftUapt70YNv8OX5dr84OzhuZ64I2gsK3x OcZGLPd0FE8zmz0cJYF8N52w4ibP8tbR7dVCd6clS7jcppBv9x z4uSyb3MfKHuS1H8Nqy72VUR9odzFDplWtLLzhIyYd%252Dbjn d1WfRXH%252Da42rA7MlifDjd8hJjre2O0M0khVHqiZUH95upc bmb6O0qbMwexTr2PwFJ6ASSCzOB0lbBggAfuwYgDIdDcx4gjWJ JgPIJHxpUzmAbmCG3Fjb1sXvou5OdBXuU378nljD2eeRoOG%25 2DiJAJLNi0DvTkw%252E%252E) Be sure when you do this to factor in the cost of both machines and it may change your mind.

Number 5... Most important
Listen to the Creekers. The responses here will save you lots of trouble and money!

Number 6... The golden rule
A pic of your purchase must be posted once you have it in your shop!

Good luck on your new shop:)

[Don Bullock]

Ned, there are many threads and posts here and elsewhere on jointers as well as Grizzly tools. Searching the forums for information that is already there should give you more information than you really want to read.

The vast majority of posts that I have read on jointer size recommend a 8" jointer over the 6". Of course, some like their 6" and others feel that a 12" is the minimum size for their needs. The size all depends on what you actually plan to do with the jointer. Based on my planned use and the many posts I read I went with an 8" jointer, but you may "need" a bigger one or perhaps you'd be one of those satisfied with a 6" machine. That is something only you can determine.

As for Grizzly, the Shop Fox jointer you saw at the dealer is made by the same factory as Grizzly jointers with the exact specs. Shop Fox is Grizzly's brand sold in retail stores. I can only speak to the quality of the Grizzly G0490 jointer. It is a good, well made machine that is in no way "sub-par." There are many on the various the woodworking forums, including here on Sawmill Creek, who will give you the same critique .

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'll add one thing to Dewey's rules, don't believe the reviews on Amazon all the time. There is really no check and balance system, so someone with an ax to grind has free rein. Oh, if you are at all interested in the combo route, at least get the free catalogs from Felder/Hammer, Minimax, Laguna, etc., or look at their websites. It may open a whole new avenue for you.

[Lewis Cobb]

What Size Jointer?
I'm just getting set up in the woodworking hobby and plan to get into furniture building. I'm researching jointers and I don't want to spend any more that $1500 (including tax, shipping, etc.). Although obviously I'm a beginner (at 49), I want to purchase one that will meet my needs for many years.

I realize that my needs are very vague, but I would appreciate any detailed guidance and recommendations regarding 6" vs. 8" jointers. Also, how important is parallelogram vs. dovetail way?

I've considered the Powermatic 54A and 60B; the 60B has poor ratings on Amazon. A local dealer has both of these Powermatics and he also has an 8" Shop Fox model 1741. Any comments on these machines.

When things seem too good to be true, they usually are. Grizzly prices are extremely low when compared to Powermatic, Delta, etc. How can they sell so low, or is the equipment sub-par? Their machines look good on their website and I've read a number of good reviews. Comments please?

Thanks for any input.





Hi Ned -
I can't comment on Grizzly as I don't have any of their machines, or any friends that do. I do know you will get more than your fair share of people that will preach about getting an 8" jointer rather than a 6" jointer. People tend to outgrow the 6" very quickly. If you search the craigslists and other used machinery listings you will find plenty of 6" but not many 8" which sort of proves that point.

If you want, I think Grizzly has (or used to have) some sort of service where they can put you in touch with someone in your area that has a machine you might be interested in, so that you can kick the tires and talk to a real customer before you take the plunge. Might want to check that out.

I'm the same age as you and bought a bunch of machines earlier this year to fully outfit my shop when I realized I wasn't getting any younger :eek::D... I went with a Powermatic parallelogram 8" machine but that's outside your present budget. You could however just cast the budget to the wind and tell your wife the same line I always do..."you can't put a price on happiness"..... maybe you will have more success with that approach than I did - ;)

Good luck in your search. Use the search function on the forums here and you will pick up a lot of knowledge in a short time. People on here are also very friendly and helpful....somewhat of a pleasant shock for me after participating in some other non-woodworking forums !

Cheers,
Lewis

[Jason Hanko]

Everything you're going to get posted in here will basically boil down to one of the two follwing trains of thought:


Buy the largest jointer you can afford or you'll be sooorrrryyyy, or
Take that jointer $$, combine it with the funds you're going to save for a planer in 6 months anyways, and get a combo. :D

Altho Im not at the point in my life where I can save up those kinds of funds, I'd vote for option 2. If you're considering dropping up to $1500 on a jointer, why not save a bit more and go for the combo? My vote would be this: http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Jointer-Planer/G0633

Grizzly's stuff is very well thought of around here, and will probably make up the bulk of my next purchases. Just do a forum search, and you'll find a TON of postings on Grizzly machines - most of them very positive, or about to be made that way by Shiraz and his customer service dept.

Oh, and Welcome to the Creek from a fellow newbie!

[Ted Shrader]

Ned -

First, welcome to the Creek. Lots of good info to be had here.

Dewey has you on the right track. All of the info he gave you is good. An additional comment - (7) Search the forums and read, read, read. There is a lot of information to gather. (This may be an adjunct to (5).)

Get the widest you can afford. I recently upgraded size from a 6" to an 8" - world of difference. The longer beds are also very helpful. My primary projects are furniture and cabinets. The 8" gives more versatility in flattening and the longer bed makes the straightening easier.

I got a Steel City 8" w/ Granite fence. Came in well under your price and included a built in mobile base.

and - Don't forget the pictures when you post your gloat. :)

Regards,
Ted

[Don Bullock]

... Oh, if you are at all interested in the combo route, at least get the free catalogs from Felder/Hammer, Minimax, Laguna, etc., or look at their websites. It may open a whole new avenue for you.

Grizzly has a combo machine as well.

Since Steve brought up this subject I'll add that as soon as you get a jointer you'll want a planer. Buying a combo machine will give you both in one machine. While some of the combos were available when I bought my Grizzly jointer, I chose to buy separate machines.

Again, machine choice depends on how you plan to use them. It's a very subjective topic with many different points of view.

[Jamie Buxton]

One way to buy better tools on a budget is to buy used. Many stationary machines (e.g jointers) have a long lifetime. You may be able to buy a used machine which works as well as a new one, but pay less than half the price. For instance, on my local craigslist there's a Felder 12" combo jointer/planer for $3K. That's something like a third of the new price.

[Neal Clayton]

if i had room for a 12" or 16" jointer i'd own one. if i were looking at combo machines, i would look at 16" rather than 12", or at least 14".

12" wide lumber (that can be slightly larger than 12") is pretty common, wider than 12" not so much. there's more than one way to skin a cat, to an extent. if a board won't fit in your jointer you can flatten it by other means. if a board won't fit in your planer that's a whole other, bigger, problem.

i agree on looking for used tools first. old iron machines never really go away, they just get cleaned up and reused by someone else ;).

[Anthony Whitesell]

As others have said, Dewey's on the right track. But I'll add some to it. Be prepared for some sticker shock when you see the price of the combo units. But don't fret to much and remember that the combo units are a full size 12 planer and a 12" jointer. So don't compare the price of the combo to an 8" jointer plus a 12" lunchbox planer.

I did a survey as to what was the preferred priority when buying a jointer a while back. The results were:
1. Width
2. Length
3. Upgraded cutter head (Spiral vs. Straight)
4. HP
5. Dovetail vs. Parallelogram Adjustment

Of course the results are subject to personal preference as well.

[Matt Benton]

I agonized over this until finally ordering the Jet 12" Jointer/Planer combo machine that Dewey mentioned (bought it yesterday). After the MS Cashback and Jet's $150 in rebates (as well as free shipping), I'm getting it for $1750. I don't know if you have a planer, but is definitely something to consider....

[Chris Schumann]

If this is anything but a small hobby for you, I'd say the only way I'd buy a 6" jointer is to find one used that you could sell for what you pay for it. I found a great deal on a 6" Jet on Craigslist and I could sell it tomorrow for the same price to put toward a larger one if the time comes.

[Cary Falk]

I just bought a W1741. I got it over the Grizzly because I got it delivered for about $100 less. I couldn't be happier. I would buy the Grizzly/Shop Fox and save the other half of your money for something else. There have been several threads lately about problems with Grizzly Jointers but Grizzly has made it right. Did you see an $800 difference between the PM and the SF while they were sitting next to each other?

[John Buzzurro]

Hi Ned, and welcome to the Creek.

Based on my personal experiences, I'd say go with at least an 8" jointer. I started with a 6", and quickly realized I wanted something wider. The other advantage to the 8" jointers is that the beds are longer too. With your budget, you should be able to get a nice 8" jointer with some money left over for other equipment.

I currently own a Shopfox W1741 8" jointer, and have been very happy with it. The Grizzly G0490 is the same machine. It is well made, and the 4-knife cutterhead leaves a smooth surface. Only complaint is the infamous "belt-slap" when starting the machine, which I believe others here have figured out a solution for. As for me, it does not seem to affect performance, so I haven't felt a need to do anything about it.

hth
John

[Eric DeSilva]

One way to buy better tools on a budget is to buy used.

+1. Search your local craigslist. I put together a shop over the last 18 mo. mainly from CL, and have had very good results--Unisaw w/52" bies fence, 14" PM BS, 8" Grizz Jointer, 20" Grizz Planer, 3HP Jet Shaper, 2HP Grizz Power Feeder, 18/36 Delta Open Frame Sander... All for less than $4K total. All in very good/almost new condition with lots of extras.

I went through the same calculus as you are now going through--up to and including looking at combo machines. One thing that dissuaded me there was the fact that combo machines are typically heavier and larger--the difference in weight was big enough that I didn't really think I could get one into my basement shop.

Ultimately, I ended up with an 8" jointer (G0500) and a 20" planer (G1033), both from Grizzly, and the combination sold to me for $700-$750 (I can't remember exactly) in very good condition (the cover on the mag switch for the planer was broken, but that is about it). I also sort of kick myself a bit, because I passed on a 1 year old (looked new) 8" PM parallelogram jointer and 20" PM planer--$1500 for the pair--thinking they were too heavy.

CL is heavily dependent upon where you are. I am near a major metro area with a heavy transitory population. But, you can always widen your search. You can also increase your odds by looking every day--its just one of the things I do when I get to work and fire up my computer.

Good luck!

[Mark Roderick]

A couple pieces of advice.

First, you don't absolutely need a jointer. With a planer and handplanes, you can achieve the same result. But there's no doubt that a jointer makes it easier, so I wouldn't tell you not to buy one if you can afford both.

Second, as you get into this hobby, don't ignore the handtools, specifically hand-powered saws (yes, they still exist), chisels, and handplanes. Although you might get a different impression from the way Sawmill Creek and other sites are organized, this is not an either/or situation. Almost all woodworkers end up using machines AND handtools, with the mix between the two being a matter of taste.

Third, don't rely too much on personal opinions. Instead, read reviews of jointers (and any other tools) in magazines. Those reviews are generally very good and objective. You're going to find that everyone loves and recommends whatever brand they happen to own. Partly that's because of the human tendency to justify our own actions, but it's also because all the major brands are pretty darn good.

A major issue for discussion on any woodworking site is whether Grizzly tools, always priced much lower than the competition, are in the same class as other major brands. I'm agnostic on the subject personally, but you will find LOTS of threads devoted to that specific issue.

[Mike Wilkins]

My advice is to get the largest capacity you and your budget can get. The reason for this is you can and will come across a board that exceeds your current capacity. I have a 12" jointer/planer combo machine, and a 14" mahogany board is sitting in my storage room. Other than a hand plane and some elbow grease, there is no way to power plane this board. There are some attractive combo machines on the market today, and the quality is there also. Think Jet and Grizzly.
Good luck in your search and watch those fingers.

[John Thompson]

You can exist with a 6" but.... most hard-wood stock comes from a supplier off the shelf in 5" - 7 1/2" widths so the 8" is the better choice IMO. I ran a 6" for around 32 years and got by using a double pass but the upgrade to the 8" 5 years ago was a wise move. And the table is longer on 8" models.

I have run dove-tail jointers for 36 years and have never had one problem. The parallegrams are easier to adjust if the beds are upset but unless you stand.. sit or abuse the beds of a dove-tail in some unusual way that is un-likely to happen. I have run HSS steel knives for 37 years and have no plans to upgrade as they surface fine. I have a Steel City 8" that has double sided knives and the cutter-head has index pins which allow you to just flip them over without the normal PITA adjustments of most steel knives.

A combo is a great idea for a small shop as it usually is 12" but I see a draw-back if you do any beds.. tall chest or tall book-cases. The beds are short on a combo and you have to set up additional support which takes as much room at that stage as a stand alone unit. But.. it does take less space when not in use.

The Grizzly is a good machine and the Shopfox is almost idenical. Power-matics are great but with the jointers I don't find the anything they can do the Grizzly or Shopfox can't. Your dad's PM is not necessarily your PM these days as they are basically come from over there with a lot of components coming from one source.

I purchased the 8" Steel City and a 20" floor planer separately which I prefer. The Steel City has the longest and tallest fence (5 x 48) and mine is granite which can't warp. Warp is not likley on any cast iron table but jointer fences are not nearly as thick and slight warp from stress release can be an issue.

Used is always an option as it saves money.. if you can find one used the owner is not in love with and thinks he will get close to retail when they decide to sell. Jointers are rather simple machines and not much can go wrong as long as they are not abused. But.. wise to check out a used one's components as you never know until you look.

Good luck...

Sarge..

[Marlin Williams]

I am a newb woodworker myself and i went with the 8" Shopfox (Grizzly).

If I was doing it again today I would get the Combo Jointer/Planer from grizzly.

[Matt Benton]

My initial impression was that I could get by without a jointer, and I changed my mind after my first project.

With two young kids, I have very little shop time to begin with (about an hour or two a week). I don't know how much time you have, but I won't be dimensioning wood by hand for a VERY long time. I thought a planer sled would be the cheap solution, but gets old quickly.

At the very least, get an 8" jointer...

[Dave Avery]

Another nod for a 12" combo...... I have the Jet and love it. Paid $1,550 shipped using the Ebay/MSFT cashback discount method. As mentioned before, Griz makes excellent machines as well and they have a nice 12" combo. I went with the Jet because it's 100# lighter (have a basement shop), it has a euro-style blade guard that I MUCH perfer to the pork chop guard, and it was - at the time - a few hundred cheaper. Best of luck with your decision.... Best. Dave.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Check out Felder's Hammer 12" J/P combo. It's not cheap but you get a top notch 12" planer and jointer.

[Chip Lindley]

IF $1500 is your limit for a jointer, go for the Grizzly 12"!!! If you have the space for this big machine, you will never be sorry. Bigger is always better, for that 10% of the time it is really needed. The other 90% you know the extra capacity is there IF needed. If you will be making furniture, wide boards may be on your horizon. The 12" will certainly come in handy! The brand new Grizzly 12" is more affordable than more "name brand" used jointers in its size range. Lots of Bang For The Buck!

[Ned Ladner]

I already have a dewalt 735 planer so I'm not really interested in a combo planer/jointer. I want to get the most bang for the buck but I will probably feel more comfortable purchasing locally. I have Steel City dealer approximately 60 miles away. Their industrial 8" has parellelogram beds and sells for under $1500. Any additional feedback on this jointer? How does it compare to Powermatic, Grizzly, Shop Fox and Delta? Thanks again for your guidance.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Ned, I'll agree with Sarge on his take on parralelagram vs dovetail. Dovetails work just fine, and if you can get one for a bargain, don't be afraid to take it.

Of the brands you listed there, you really are splitting hairs. They are all now going to be made, or at least partially made overseas. They all use the same technology, and they will cost similar for the feature package you choose. It will come down to paint color preference, and what you can find the best deal with. Good news is, you probably can't pick wrong with those choices.

I'd choose Powermatic because that color is so ugly it's cool. Kind of like sassy grass green on an old Mopar...

[John Thompson]

I already have a dewalt 735 planer so I'm not really interested in a combo planer/jointer. I want to get the most bang for the buck but I will probably feel more comfortable purchasing locally. I have Steel City dealer approximately 60 miles away. Their industrial 8" has parellelogram beds and sells for under $1500. Any additional feedback on this jointer? How does it compare to Powermatic, Grizzly, Shop Fox and Delta? Thanks again for your guidance.

Since I have the Steel City Industrial 8" with dove-tails and... since Steel City had me demonstrating machines for them at the International WW Show in Atlanta in August.... you could say I am biased. But... that is not the case really.

I highly reccomend you make a physical comparison of the machines if that is possible. There can be no bias when matching component to component. The machine will tell you what is best for you much better than someone who might be in love with their machine but yet not having really compared.. ownied. or used the others.

How does it compare to the others? Well... very well as most jointer components come from a limited source. Or at least that was what I was told by 3 owners of plants in Asia.. two from China and Geetech in Taiwan who makes the Saw-stop.. Sunhill.. etc.. etc.. I was fortunate enough to get to go to dinner with these guys courtesy of Steel City at IWF.

And I will also mention that not all the reps in the individual stores that sell machines know all the features inside out, especally if they carry multiple lines of machines. So... do some home-work before you visit your dealer. In the case of Steel City... have a look at the jointer knives. You can't see on the surface but they are double sided. And notice the index pins on the cutter-head which allow you to simply un-screw the allen head bolts and flip them over without an alignment jig.

Good luck in your search and please.. compare machine to machine if you can and then go for the best deal. SC has double rebates until December 31st... I am not aware of the some of the other manufactures as they may have deals working also. Is that fair enough?

Regards...

Sarge..

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I prefer. The Steel City has the longest and tallest fence (5 x 48) and mine is granite which can't warp.
Good luck...

Sarge..

Morning Sarge,

Just wanted to ask you what you thought of the granite? We debated this to death a while back, but with the added time, I'm curious if you think it is an improvement over cast? I guess it's not really new technology now, and I'm wondering if you think there is a place for granite tops and fences? Not intending to hijack...

Have a good day,

[John Thompson]

Morning Sarge,

Just wanted to ask you what you thought of the granite? We debated this to death a while back, but with the added time, I'm curious if you think it is an improvement over cast? I guess it's not really new technology now, and I'm wondering if you think there is a place for granite tops and fences? Not intending to hijack...

Have a good day,

I have the granite fence on my jointer... I have a cast iron one sitting in the corner... do you need a cast iron one for free? I wish I had the granite bed also but do not. I have used (over 10,000 linear feet across it since I got it to field test) and abused it in every way. That includes popping the back side with a 7/8" wrench very hard several times to see if it would chip which it didn't. So... I have no real concerns with that matter.

The TS top is flat (very flat).. very stable as granite has been stress relieved for 5 million years and won't warp. The draw-back as I see it if for those that would attach magnetic accessories to the table top. It will accept and Incra type gauge so that is not a concern.

I have the extremely well made SC 5 HP TS with an excellent cast iron top and will probably never up-grade again. But.. if that TS had a granite top on it when I chose it.... I would have a SC 5 HP granite top saw simply to keep rust maintenance down here in the humid Atlanta area. That does require frequent waxing on my part here.

There might be a time as there almost was recently when cast iron becomes more expensive than the granite for production cost. That is not a concern to me as I have a TS but.. could be in our trying economy to someone who does not as cost is always a concern to most of us.

Sarge

[Matt Ocel]

I agree with Chris S.

Remember a 6" jointer was an absolute staple for years in cabinet shops.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I have the granite fence on my jointer... I have a cast iron one sitting in the corner... do you need a cast iron one for free? I wish I had the granite bed also but do not. I have used (over 10,000 linear feet across it since I got it to field test) and abused it in every way. That includes popping the back side with a 7/8" wrench very hard several times to see if it would chip which it didn't. So... I have no real concerns with that matter.

The TS top is flat (very flat).. very stable as granite has been stress relieved for 5 million years and won't warp. The draw-back as I see it if for those that would attach magnetic accessories to the table top. It will accept and Incra type gauge so that is not a concern.

I have the extremely well made SC 5 HP TS with an excellent cast iron top and will probably never up-grade again. But.. if that TS had a granite top on it when I chose it.... I would have a SC 5 HP granite top saw simply to keep rust maintenance down here in the humid Atlanta area. That does require frequent waxing on my part here.

There might be a time as there almost was recently when cast iron becomes more expensive than the granite for production cost. That is not a concern to me as I have a TS but.. could be in our trying economy to someone who does not as cost is always a concern to most of us.

Sarge

Thanks for the update. I was one of the naysayers that came out skeptical of the idea, but I have to admit that after watching for broken granite feedback for a while now, I am starting to think that I was wrong. Have a good evening,

[Craig Nickles]

I would have to say if you can afford it go 8. I have a grizzly 6 inch and it is a good machine but I would go 8 if money allowed. I have to agree on the combo machine if you have that much cash to part with.

[Andrew Joiner]

I agree with Chris S.

Remember a 6" jointer was an absolute staple for years in cabinet shops.

I bought a new Powermatic 6" in 1970 and used it in my cabinet shop for 3 or 4 years. I was buying S2S stock.Then I found out it's more cost efficient and easier to buy lumber S3S. A glue joint rip blade and a decent table saw set-up beats a jointer any day, especially on long stock edges! Oh and even a cheap rip blade won't ever chip out an edge like a knife can.

I never found the need to go back to owning and maintaining a jointer.

Recently I got a deal on some beautiful rough planks. I only bought the stuff that was flat in the rough. My experience is if a board is wavy in the rough it has a tendency to get wavy again, even if flatened on a $5,000 jointer. I ran it thru a planer and straight lined the edge on the table saw with a jig.

Even if I had a source for lots of cheap rough lumber,I would still flatten it with a planer and a sled. Holding down long heavy stock to a jointer table is hard work.

I know I'm kinda radical, but this is my experience.

[paul dyar]

I have 6" Jet, wished it was 8". But more than that, I wished it was a long-bed.

Paul

[Steve Griffin]

Here's my approach--

NEVER buy the best you can afford.

Rather, buy something which costs about half as much as you can afford, and then use the rest of your money to set it up WELL and maintain it WELL.

Your jointer needs 220 power, good dust collection, an extra set of Knives and a future money allowance to keep them razor sharp. I added about 16" to the infeed table on my 8" grizzly, which really helps with longer stock. Also have a dedicated roller stand at the other end for long and heavy work. A can of surface lube is always nearby.

Too often people forget the cost of setting up and maintaining a machine, and end up with a shop full of large capacity, hi powered junk.

-Steve