Warped walnut

[Frank Gilbert]

I have a 22 inch by 22 inch walnut table top that separated along the middle glue line and each half warped. The walnut is about 5/8 thick and has been warped for several years. The table was handed down by family and thus the effort to repair.
I have tried water on the convex side and heat lamps on the concave side and even wood strips clamped to create pressure. Nothing is happening and without a better idea from the forum the next step is to make cuts in the underside of the boards and fill with a thin piece of weaker wood. This technique is described in a book by Ernst Joyce.

I would be grateful for any advice.

[Dewey Torres]

Frank,
Please go take a couple digital pictures and post them here.... We will try to get r' solved for you.

[Chris Padilla]

So I assume each piece cupped like: /-\ /-\

So you're trying to expand the underside to flatten the top?

Do you have any pictures? Can you removed the top to work on it?

[Frank Gilbert]

Hey thanks for helping. The top is off and in two parts. The cup or convex surface is the top __facing up.
Would be glad to post photos, however, unclear how to get that done.

[John Keeton]

I have tried water on the convex side and heat lamps on the concave side ...
Frank, this sounds the reverse of what it should be. The concave side should be moistened to counteract the expansion that has occurred on the convex side.
Having said that, it it has been cupped for years, I doubt you will have much success in this endeavor short of some structural alteration. But pics may help get some other opinions. In order to attach a pic, it must be reduced in size and resolution to meet the maximum file size (105 kb I think), and then when you post, click the paper clip icon and upload the pic from your computer.

[Dewey Torres]

Would be glad to post photos, however, unclear how to get that done.

Frank,
1) Take digital picture
2) Hook up camera to computer and save digital picture to desk top (or wherever) on your computer.
3) Hit: post reply
4) click on the paperclip icon just to the left of the smiley face at the top
5) hit browse in the new window that pops up
6) point the browser to your picture location
7) hit upload... wait for indication of upload
8) close window
9) submit reply

[Frank Gilbert]

Concave top faces up and it is two pieces. I think I said that backward. Thanks. Will send pic tomorrow when brain may be engaged.

[Frank Gilbert]

I have removed the top.

[John Thompson]

Not sure from the picture what you mean by two pieces. From what I see you might follow Joyce's advice and do the stress relief cut. But.. I would add a stretcher under-neath from side to side that will not be seen. Shoot some pilot holes in it and then run spax screw through it into the top to attempt to pull it down. But.. be careful not to run the screw through the top as 5/8" is not real thick.

BTW.. I do this on all my tops. I use table fastners snugged in a groove on the outer strechers but with enough room in the groove to move in and out in expansion and contraction. In the center which is most likey to cup with flat-sawn stock... I run the strecher from side to side and pull it down with screws. That pins the center so expansion and contraction are forced to the outer perimeter where the loose fitting fastners can move back and forth in the groove.

Good luck and a picture of the two pieces might help as I am still not quite sure what you refer too..

Sarge..

[Tony Bilello]

Looks to me like it needs to be sliced lengthwise in 3 places. Then use table saw or planer to cut edge to appropriate angles and reglue. When done, it will need to be planed or belt sanded so the ridges can be flattened.
Yuo will probably lose about 1/2 to 5/8" off your total width, depending on skill level. Only 3/8" to 5/16" if you are really good and have a narrow kerf table saw blade. Probably lose about 1/16" to 1/8" overall thickness depending on how much of the ripples you can live with. It's all a matter of what you are willing to live with.
If you try to pulll it flat with screws it will still have waves/ridges and will eventually crack somewhere and that may not be a straight line glue joint crack and your problems will be worse.
Itsa
I used to have a woodworking and refinishing shop, if that will add any credability to what I suggest.

[Ralph Barhorst]

If it was my table, I would get some nice figured walnut and make a new top 3/4" thick. Try to match the edges to the old top.

[John Keeton]

I am with Ralph on this one! Any effort to repair will be visible, and will detract from the value and appearance of the table. A new top could be a "transparent" repair and actually increase the value. Of course, one would have to conclude the sentiment is in the table, not the top.

[Frank Gilbert]

I really appreciate all the responses. Thank you.

[John Keeton]

Frank, that looks like a glueline failure. Probably hide glue if original, and subject to moisture and heat - which may have been the cause of the warp/cup.

I would seriously doubt that this can be corrected in such fashion as not to be noticeable. I would replace the top. That is a simple ogee on the edge and easily duplicated.

[Frank Gilbert]

I will find some figured walnut per Ralph and make a new top. I have worked on this for quite a while and am very grateful for the guilt relief. Thanks to all.

[Dewey Torres]

I will find some figured walnut per Ralph and make a new top. I have worked on this for quite a while and am very grateful for the guilt relief. Thanks to all.

Frank,
Looks like you figured out the pics which were a great help to your responses. Always add pics when you can especially on questions. You will get more and better answers!

One request,
Use you new found pic posting skills to follow up once you fix it. These are the things folks after you will look up and solve because you took the time to share.

Good luck on the fix!

[Frank Gilbert]

So here are two pictures to share now. One my dad signed his work in 1954 and second the torture device, including heat and moisture, that so far has failed. I work in decades instead of days so don't look for the finished product until January.

[Rich Enders]

I had an old round oak table which had cupped drop down leaves. It had been owned by a neighbor who had it since 1925. We purchased it 40 years ago and at that time I had read something about wetting the concave side. Dutifully I stripped and sanded that side and then tried to keep it wet. After a few days of wetting and seeing no results, I rigged a hose to trickle over the surface. Weeks later I checked, and still no movement and I basically gave up, but left the water trickling.

Then one day perhaps 6 or more months later I checked and the leaves were flat..... Not perfect, but good enough for government work as they used to say. I am not sure of the exact cause of this, but maybe it is akin to air drying wood. Meaning that it takes a year, or years for wood to give up moisture, and it took quite a while for this wood to reabsorb water and swell enough to finally to overcome the internal stress that was cupping it.

The table and leaves were then finished with several coats of Polycrylic (to try to maintain a very light color), and the leaves had not cupped again until the last time I saw the table in 2002.

[John Keeton]

Frank, was this table one of your Dad's pieces and did he sign it? If it was on the top, perhaps you could extract that piece out and use it somehow in the new top.

[Frank Gilbert]

The Oak story is fantastic and backs up the information in "Furniture Restoration" by Marx and Marx. Their instructions include the advice that the wood warped over a long period of time and unwarping time will be unpredictable.
The table was made by my father and yes I will make something else from the table top. His signature was on a dust panel under the drawer so easy to include in the repair.
Could you recommend a source for figured walnut?

I inherited my dads shop and just at the right time as at 61 I am taking time to begin learning the craft. Everything is from the 1950's. When you get the whole shop you don't have to buy punches, rasp, nails or screws. Trouble is machines like the Black and Decker sanders are no match for Festool and large equipment needs a lot of clean up, new cords etc. I have been shocked by how much machinery has improved -Model T to Honda Accord- and how much I need to learn and how wonderful the people are in this field. Another surprise to me is I am leaning toward hand tools! A lifetime project no matter the path taken.

[Chris Padilla]

Frank,

Look in the manufacturer's forum for some leads on locating figured Walnut. Ebay can be a good source, too. Where are you located (you may wish to fill that in on your profile) as that may help us to help send you somewhere and seeing it in person is always the best if you can do it.

[Frank Gilbert]

https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/e6e43cf3-fefd-4dbf-a026-59ed045ac603

[Frank Gilbert]

https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/6837fb27-dbf3-461c-9ee4-5698a91aab54

[Frank Gilbert]

I am dumbfounded that I cannot understand how to add a photo of the table. Advise please.

[Matt Day]

And it only took 12 years to report back, a record! Glad you fixed it.

There is photo posting information in the Forum Tech Support subforum.

[Tom Levy]

Original poster replies back after 12 years? This is one of the more amazing things I've seen. What happened in those twelve years? 2008 was right when the original iPhone was released, Obama was about to be elected and the office on tv was still new and really good. An age ago as they say across the pond.

[Thomas McCurnin]

I think I would go the other direction and remove the top, joint the two edges and re-glue the two boards, then run that rascal through a wide belt sander to remove the high spot in the center, which looks to be about a 16th or more, hard to see. Then re-finish and re-attach.

Why not?

No harm in trying. Saves money and time.

[Lee Schierer]

I am dumbfounded that I cannot understand how to add a photo of the table. Advise please.

In every message reply form there is a small icon of a tree in a picture frame.430809, simply click on the picture frame, then select your photo and click on upload. Once the photo posts you should see this type of text where your cursor was (ATTACH=CONFIG]430809[/ATTACH]

One thing that the OP was never asked and never showed was how the table top was attached to the stringers. The top according to the first photo he posted was cross grain to the stringers and if it was not allowed to move with seasonal moisture changes (slotted screw holes, figure 8 fasteners, cleats, etc), the cupping was like to occur and may well reoccur unless that problem is fixed.

I would also recommend that he apply equal amounts and types of finish to the underside of the top to slow moisture change effects.

[Frank Gilbert]

Tony you saved me and I am grateful. Hope the boating is still working for you. 492272
I am grateful for all of the advice as I think there were several workable
solutions mentioned.

[Steve Demuth]

And it only took 12 years to report back, a record! Glad you fixed it.

There is photo posting information in the Forum Tech Support subforum.

+1 (or more). There are reasons this is my favorite forum. This will be one more.

[Robert Hayward]

From the initial post describing the problem to today posting the picture of the completed project. 14 years!!!

I have been known to drag my feet completing a project but 14 years?

Frank, just joshing you a little. The finished table looks superb and thanks for showing us the outcome.

Just today I was given a small end table/magazine rack made out of solid black walnut. Old and needs refinishing. Do not have a single need for the table but it was too nice looking and solid wood to let it be tossed. Hopefully I do not take 14 years to redo it.

[Tom Levy]

From the initial post describing the problem to today posting the picture of the completed project. 14 years!!!

I have been known to drag my feet completing a project but 14 years?

Frank, just joshing you a little. The finished table looks superb and thanks for showing us the outcome.

Just today I was given a small end table/magazine rack made out of solid black walnut. Old and needs refinishing. Do not have a single need for the table but it was too nice looking and solid wood to let it be tossed. Hopefully I do not take 14 years to redo it.


Really it was 12 years to do the fix, then two years back he asked for help posting the picture of the fix and then today he successfully replies with pic! This is an amazing thread.

[Frank Gilbert]

I would never ditch a walnut piece. Love that wood. Robert if you do take 14 years it is better than seeing it wasted. And by the way 14 years goes by very quickly. Way too quickly. My forty year old daughter seems yesterday she was five.

[Warren Lake]

yeah, I used to put the garbage out and there were seven days till it was put out again. Now its seems three and half maybe four.

[Mel Fulks]

If the top surface is cupped, like it can hold some water, then that is a concave top. Most of those are caused by spills and by being frequently wiped
off with “damp cloth “. The water makes that side swell ,making the top convex , water runs off onto the floor. The water made the
top swell , mashing the cells fat and the top convex. So when dry the the top cells got skinny , making the top more narrow and concave.
I read that explanation many years ago. I think museums and serious collectors have “people” who fix the stuff. I tried the fix on scrap
wood and it worked. Never had a real problem but once or twice in employments it was needed and I got it to work.

[Lee Schierer]

This thread started in 2008, so the OP has probably resolved his situation by now.

[Jim Becker]

This thread started in 2008, so the OP has probably resolved his situation by now.
OP updated the thread recently resulting in more commentary. But folks new to it probably got to reading post one first. Nature of the beast... :)

[Robert Hayward]

I would never ditch a walnut piece. Love that wood. Robert if you do take 14 years it is better than seeing it wasted. And by the way 14 years goes by very quickly. Way too quickly. My forty year old daughter seems yesterday she was five.
Happy to report progress is being made on the table redo. I was able to completely disassemble the table with absolutely no damage. The parts have been stripped and sanded with excellent results. Just a hint of the original darkened shellac remained in the open pores of the walnut so I put a light coat of walnut stain on the wood and it is almost ready for the final finish and reassembly.

Years ago a shrink friend of mine gave his theory of why time goes by faster as we age. When we are one year old our brains consider one year as 100% of our lives. Two years old and each year is 50% of our life experiences. Fifty years old and one year is now about 2% of our brains experience, and so on and so on. As we age each additional year adds a smaller percentage of experience as compared to the overall total.

[Thomas Crawford]

I vote we pin this thread somewhere.