Dealing with rough stock

[Douglas Brummett]

I have to show my inexperience here. Normally I buy S2S or S4S. Even with that stock there is some amount of flattening required and logistics to consider in breaking it down. Normally I don't have to deal with long boards.

A few weeks back I brought home a truckload of rough poplar for a table top. Most of it is about 8-11in x 1.75in x 9ft. As the seasons changed and it acclimated to my garage it has cupped a bit, some boards more than others. Looking at the boards I think the first step needs to be straight line ripping and splitting the worst cupped boards in half. The boards are too wide for my 6in jointer, so I plan to glue up 2-3 board panels and hand plane them close to flat on one side before sending them through the 13" lunchbox planer.

I started down this path yesterday, but stalled out due to safety concerns. I started out with a board 8inx1.75inx9ft and about 1/16in of cup. I passed the edge over the jointer to get a fairly poor straight edge to run against the fence of the TS. This was fairly crude and I am sure not a good approach. It did render an edge that could ride flat on the fence without rocking.

Next I headed off to the tablesaw (craftsman 2HP). It is setup with about 3-4ft of outfeed support and a roller beyond that. Blade is a new CMT 24t rip. No infeed support. Using a magswitch featherboard to hold the board against the fence. I set everything up, grab the board just aft of center, and start guiding it through. About 6ft in I notice that my splitter isn't installed. Strike-1. So I shut down and install it. I start back up now feeling a bit safer, guide the board in again from the beginning, and as it hits the roller I notice it pulling away slightly from the fence. Strike-2. Roller a touch high and not aligned. So I remedy this. Then I flip the board around, keeping the same surface to the table, and rip the second edge straight. Again, I notice a bit of pull from the fence once the board hits the roller. Strike-3. Time to call it a day.

At the very minimum I need to pick up a board that will support the work all the way out of the saw. That will remove the roller issue.

I think I need a straight rip board guide and to forget passing over the jointer.

Am I just going about this backwards? I am not seeing a better option than straight line ripping. Any advice based on tools at my disposal?

tools:
TS
6in Jointer
13in planer
14in bandsaw
circular saw
jigsaw
Router with 2.5in straight bit

[Joe Chritz]

This is an idea I stole from someone here and I don't remember who to give good credit but here it goes.

Take a piece of plywood about 7-8 inches by 8 feet. Take a piece 1" by 8 feet and attach it with glue and brads down one side. Take a short piece 1" wide and make an L, connecting to the 1" rail. You can now take that and set it on top of a crocked board, pinch it together and instant straight line rip.

I have one 8' long, one just over 4' and a short one about 30" or so. Cheap, easy and fast.

I often glue up panels that are only flat on one side. Rip the boards, flatten one face, glue up then run through the planer. If you are careful with the glue up you can run them through right off the clamps.

You could be getting some tension released in the wood when you rip it. That is a function of the board and nothing you are doing. I rip wide, then re straighten and edge to combat this. Just watch out for the board pinching the blade when it is ripped. I used a fair amount of poplar for drawer sides and never noticed it to be any better or worse for this than other woods.

Good luck

Joe

[Tom Esh]

I think your technique is basically sound. When using a roller stand I always make sure it's canted slightly to pull toward the fence. Of course that means you have to make sure you have pressure against the fence on the feed side all the way through the cut, but that's a good practice in any case. The only other issue is the 9' length, which by nature is bound to make any operation more difficult. Unless you're building something that long, I'd start by crosscuting closer to the sizes you'll need.

[Anthony Whitesell]

You may have another problem looming is the board is cupped (warped with the rings of the wood). If you joint the edge and run it cup down it may bind on the blade. If you run it cup up, then the two edges will not be parallel.

I would start with using the planer as a jointer first. If the board sits on the ground without rocking and is supported every 4-6 inches then a piece of 3/4 MDF (or plywood, but MDF will be flatter) with a cleat on the end is all you need. Place the board on the MDF and plane away. If the board rocks, either knock off the high spots with a hand plane until it doesn't and you reach option 1, or make fancier jointer sled that will do the job, there are plenty of plans on the web.

After one face is jointed, I would either plane the rough off the other face or head to the jointer to square up one edge.

After the board is "jointed" on the planer edge it on the jointer. The jointer you have should work fine, but you should probably have in/out feed support if the boards are 8-9 feet long. That's a lot of weight to hold down and guide. A magnetic featherboard or two wouldn't hurt either.

Now you should be able to return to the planer for the other face, if you haven't already, or to the table saw for the other edge.

I purchased a roller support for outfeed support and regret it. They must be setup exactly straight and should be a little low to make sure the board doesn't push it over. They're OK for infeed support. The roller ball style is much more forgiving in terms of alignment and setup.

[Matt Day]

I'm a bit confused. You have rough cut poplar, no jointing any side right? If so, I don't think you should be ripping these on the TS as it could bind the blade badly. Before taking it to the TS you should have at least one edge and one face jointed to do it safely. Or you can rig something up to rip them down with a skilsaw, or use a jigsaw or bandsaw or handsaw. I've tried doing ripping down rough stock on the TS and just bind the blade and burn the wood.

You could also make a planer sled since the boards don't fit on your jointer but will fit through any lunchbox planer.

[Douglas Brummett]

I appreciate the responses.

The cupping is a valid concern and a big reason that I stopped where I was at. Either way it isn't a good thing on the TS once it begins to move as the cut frees the 2 pieces.

So best practice sounds like 2 methods:
1) planer sled to get a flat face then rip (not very economical on the poorly cupped boards since it will take more material over the width)
2) rip with the circular saw to jointer size (6in in my case) then rip on the TS for accuracy

[Anthony Whitesell]

In terms of the face jointing/planing, either method will remove the same amount of material to get to a flat face. If you select option #2, the circular saw cut will not be 90* to the face. Option 2 will become:
- Cut with circular saw
- joint face on jointer
- joint an edge
- cut other edge on table saw (for parallel sides)
- plane the remaining face

The procedure in general terms, step 1 is to face plane first. Next you can plane the other face or make one edge 90* to the planed face. It doesn't matter if you use a planer or jointer, but step 1 is first. You need to have a flat reference face for all that comes next. To make the edge 90* to a face you can use a jointer, router with a straight bit and straight edge, or the table saw with a guide clamped to the rough board.

If you're worried about needing to remove too much material, you could get fancy. Since we know that you will need to joint the edges, the face planing doesn't need to get all the way across the board if you're careful with your edge jointing. Here's what I mean:
-Start face planing/jointing but stop before you get a flat face across the width but wide enough to be able to support the piece during the following steps.
-Edge joint the board using the flat part of the face as reference on the jointer. Make sure you don't apply pressure any where except directly on the flatened part of the board otherwise you'll tip the board. These two edges will be 90* to each other even though they don't meet at 90 degrees.
- Now take the board to the table saw and rip off the other edge with the flat side on the table. Again, don't apply pressure any where except directly on the flatened part of the board otherwise you'll tip the board.
- Now head back to the planer to finish the face jointing from the first step
- Flip the board and plane the other face

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Douglas, here's how I would approach it given your machinery

1) Using a chalk line, divide your boards into pieces just under 6 inches wide

2) Bandsaw allong the chalk lines

3) Joint one face and one edge

4) Plane other surface

5) rip to widest width available on tablesaw

6) Edge joint ripped edge if required for glue quality edges

7) glue up your panels

Regards, Rod.

[Jason Beam]

I didn't see it listed, but i figure for those who do have one, i'd mention what I think i'd do in this situation:

Bandsaw.

I'd rip it down on the bandsaw first, then use my normal milling procedure:

1. Face joint
2. Plane opposite face.
3. Joint one edge.
4. Rip to width - possibly clean up ripped edge.

I joint after planing both faces because then I have a choice of edges to joint and maximize my options with grain direction and avoiding tear out. Yes it's an extra trip between the jointer and planer - it's worth it to me. :)

[Marcus Ward]

Listen to Rod. The bandsaw is your friend. When you work with a lot of raw lumber... what would you call that, S0S? Hah! Anyhow, you learn to love the bandsaw a lot more. I don't even have a tablesaw anymore and operations like you're doing are cake on the bandsaw. Our woodworking culture is tablesaw centric because of our heavy reliance on sheet goods for the last 50 years. The bandsaw is the friend of a woodworker who uses whole lumber. Good luck!!

[Jeff Duncan]

As you can see there's always several options to get the job done. Myself I cut stock as you attempted on your first try. Crosscut to rough length, joint one edge, rip to size on tablesaw or joint the face depending on use. With rough stock you will definitely be prone to seeing some rocking as you push through and if the stock has any tension you'll see it as it comes out the back. But if you get a decent length outfeed table, a splitter, a good sharp ripping blade, and good technique (keep the stock moving forward without stalling) you should be fine.
Of course if it makes you uncomfortable don't do it! That goes for any ww operation. The other suggestions provided will also work, albeit take significantly longer to accomplish the same task.
good luck,
JeffD

[Chip Lindley]

As has been aptly mentioned here, there is no reason to deal with a 9 ft. board if you do not need that length in your project. IF you do need long boards they must be delt with only then. My method:
1. pick boards to fit project, mark out cutting lines, avoid defects
(a time-consuming but rewarding process)
2. crosscut a bit overlength, (depends on stock)
3. joint one edge of wide board on jointer
4. rip widths needed from boards (1/8" over, again depends on stock)
5. flatten one face on jointer
6. lightly rejoint edges (if needed)
7. thickness plane
8. Rip to final width, chop to length

All done on a 6" jointer, 10" tablesaw, and 13" RC33 planer.

[Peter Quinn]

I rip rough stock with a cabinet saw, one edge surfaced, quite regularly at work. Every guy there does. But I'm going to be honest, it is not safe, I do not recommend it, and I care not even describe the various tricks employed in doing it for fear that it may sound like an endorsement of such technique. And there are limits to the degree of roughness in the stock with which I will employ this method.

I agree and second (third?) both Rod and Chip's outline for the procedure. My milling always starts with cross cutting to rough length. Once in a while I wind up with an 10"-14" board that needs to make at least one long stile and multiple short rails so I have to process the long board by joining an edge and ripping first to yield my desired parts and grain pattern. Sometimes I need to rip a piece off a wide flat sawn board to make leg blanks from the rift edge and process the rest into shorter pieces, so occasions do arise where crosscutting isn't feasible. That's where the band saw or the risky TS rip comes in. I don't consider poplar a stain grade material generally and am thus less concerned with grain or color so I pick flat material for long parts and cross cut every thing else short as possible.

I'd loose the roller stand for use on the TS or any cut which requires motion, they all guide the cut and add an element of surprise! I do have a flat top Rigid out feed support stand that has some teflon like material on it which works well for occasional use and doesn't guide the cut, but generally I just screw a cleat and longer piece of plywood to extend the outfeed and use the roller stand under that to hold up the end.

[Jack Hutchinson]

Plenty of helpful advice here, Doug. The only suggestion I have is to lose the roller guide with it's insistent directional preference. Can you find another method to support your outfeed? One inexpensive option for a portable material support is the "One Man Stand" (google it). I think I learned about them on Sawmill Creek.

[glenn bradley]

I cut my parts oversized. I don't rip down a rough 9' board unless I need a 9' board. Like Chip, I mill the smallest piece possible to end up with the part I want. If I have a bowed 4' board and I can cut it to 37", my bow impact is reduced . . . I'm not explaining this well . . . lets try this (http://www.howcast.com/videos/2580-How-To-Mill-Rough-Lumber).

[Dan Hahr]

Wow. I never would have thought that there would be so many different opinions on how to get a finished board(s) from rough stock. And I think that there isn't one poster above that I totally agree with. However, several have the basics down pat and the basics are pretty much this:

Choose your boards carefully considering grain direction, etc. and crosscut roughly to length.
Create a straight edge to reference the next rip by using either a jointer, hand plane, straight line rip saw or equivalent jig, hand saw, etc.
Rip the board to rough width however you choose. If the board is relatively flat, the TS works fine. If it's not, the BS works well. If you need a work out, a good hand saw will probably get the job done before you decide whether you want to hook up the TS or BS.
Flatten one face however you choose. Jointer is usually easiest. Planer will work with a jig. Hand plane to keep up the workout. Use a router and a jig if you can't fit it over or through the above.
Plane the other face flat and then thickness.
Joint one edge straight. Usually grain direction or appearance will dictate which.
Rip the other edge to width however you choose. The TS excells here. The BS works if it is set up PERFECTLY. There are at least two other ways that take a lot more time and are a mute point if you have a TS.
Now, here's the kicker: At any point after step 3, the wood is likely to start moving, ie cupping, twisting, bowing, warping, etc. When this happens the only solution is to return to step 4 and start over. Keep this in mind when cutting slightly oversize to start with.

Jason put it the simplest. I just don't keep my bandsaw out all the time and it is not worth changing the blade just to make a rough rip cut. That being said, DO NOT try to rip a cupped or twisted board on the TS without having complete control over the board and knowing what you are doing.

One more tip. If you are trying to get perfectly flat boards, you need to remember that as you cut the boards you are releasing stress that can cause movement. You may also be exposing wood with a different moisture content. I recommend leaving your boards slightly wide and thick after initial milling for a few days before final milling, just to avoid the inevitable surprise of a warped board that has no extra thickness to work with.

Dan

[Mark Carlson]

I would do what Rod suggests below. One thing I didn't see mentioned was how long your table top is going to be. Unless its 9ft long I would start by cutting your boards down to the length of your top plus a couple of inches (step 0). Trying to mill 9-10 ft long boards is very difficult with the machinery you have.

~mark


Hi Douglas, here's how I would approach it given your machinery

1) Using a chalk line, divide your boards into pieces just under 6 inches wide

2) Bandsaw allong the chalk lines

3) Joint one face and one edge

4) Plane other surface

5) rip to widest width available on tablesaw

6) Edge joint ripped edge if required for glue quality edges

7) glue up your panels

Regards, Rod.

[Douglas Brummett]

This has been an interesting discussion.

I agree that the bandsaw is likely the best solution. I just have to wonder how many have actually wrestled boards longer than 7ft through a small bandsaw. To me the small cast iron table equates to a real pain. None of my material support goes to the height of the bandsaw table either. Definitely a good candidate for enlisting a helper.

I am building a top for a dining table with a finish length of 7ft. I plan on leaving a minimum of 4in on each end for snipe. I don't get bad snipe, but it is still easier to crosscut that off than to resurface the rest of the board.

Part of my dilema stems from 2 desires. These can be solved in multiple ways.

The boards with more cup will be best served in narrow strips (4-5in). Once ripped narrow enough to reduce cup they will easily fit on my jointer.

Boards that aren't cupped much I want to leave full width. I am leaning towards doing the router joining trick with a long edge guide. This would create the complimentary faces on each board without too much concern about 100% straightness. Then I could pass these 10-12in wide sections through the planer both sides to flatten them. I don't see any point in ripping boards just to get them on the jointer if they are only 1/32-1/16" cupped over 8in. I am not seeing any bowing or twist.

I appreciate all of the feedback and good suggestions. I will have to follow up on progress here. Thanks.

[Derek Stevens]

Ok, maybe i am just a hack here, but I gotta say that doing this every day, I didn't give it a thought until reading all the discussions here. working with the lenght rather than figuring on shorter stock, I would start by flattening the stock out in the planer, and with a side, I would ride the best perpendicular side down the fence of my TS, a 1/16th at a time. with the planed side on the table, and the fence perp side fairly close, just rock on ( but safely of course) if the fence perp is messy, and the sizing allows for the action to be hidden in future planing, milling, I would tack a straight edge of ply or whathaveyou 12" Longer than the stock. The other thing I would say, is throw the roller things out in the yard. I hate 'em. I have a leveled 16 foot total off feed, an 8 and a second 8 on wheels that gives me the lenght. Just my humble opinion, based on having mostly raw stock.

[Rick Thom]

I don't see any mention of the final thickness you were going for on your table top, but I presume it's something like 3/4" -7/8". That's a lot of material to plane off the original rough thickness of 1 3/4". Hope you have a chip separator on your DC... LOL. Personally, I would be inclined to thickness the boards in stages with a resting period between, to ensure the boards release any tension and stabilize moisture content etc as you take them down to size. Some wwkrs even recommend taking approximately the same amount off either side to arrive at the final thickness.
Once glued up into a large panel, any waviness will be instantly recognizable and may or may not occur immediately. Then you may be into a hand plane exercise. DAMHIK.
It seems to me that this sort of problem is often a bi-product of the speed at which we can build today with the equipment we have available, and the crunch for time.

[Douglas Brummett]

I don't see any mention of the final thickness you were going for on your table top, but I presume it's something like 3/4" -7/8". That's a lot of material to plane off the original rough thickness of 1 3/4". Hope you have a chip separator on your DC... LOL. Personally, I would be inclined to thickness the boards in stages with a resting period between, to ensure the boards release any tension and stabilize moisture content etc as you take them down to size. Some wwkrs even recommend taking approximately the same amount off either side to arrive at the final thickness.
Once glued up into a large panel, any waviness will be instantly recognizable and may or may not occur immediately. Then you may be into a hand plane exercise. DAMHIK.
It seems to me that this sort of problem is often a bi-product of the speed at which we can build today with the equipment we have available, and the crunch for time.

I am shooting for a thickness of over 1.25in. I would like 1.5in, but that may be too little removal to to fully flatten all boards.

I am a fan of removing material from both sides to keep things stable. I haven't noticed it being a problem at the smoothing level to only do one side. For roughing and flattening I try to get to both sides though.

I didn't mention hand planes among the tools at disposal, but I am set with no3-no7 planes and a couple of woodies that could do scrub duty. I am not too worried about having to hand plane the entire top to final flatness. I am prepared to dedicate a weekend of grunting and getting intimate with the fore plane and jointer :D

Derek, you have outfeed to be envious of. I don't agree that the rollers are junk, but rather better suited to hold up an outfeed plank than to roll the material. I have used the plank method in the past. I just didn't have a long enough plank Sunday afternoon. Some monkey cut down my scrap board :rolleyes:

I imagine that it would most likely be fine just continuing as I started. I am just a bit paranoid around the TS and a 40lb plank is not something I want to experience kickback from. The length of the boards and the splitter in play make that reaction unlikely. However my little angel on my shoulder keeps nagging me.

So here I am poling the crew here.

[David Keller NC]

Douglas - Here's a "now for something completely different" thought:

Were I in your position and making a table top, I would not rip any of those boards. What I would do is take the cup out of them. It's not too terribly difficult, provided that the cup isn't too severe. You simply buy a plant mister from the Home Despot, fill it with distilled water, and lightly spray down the concave side. You can then use a hair dryer to gently heat the other side, and the board will flatten out.

To make this work well, you must then do one of three things:

1) Work very quickly and joint/plane the 3 boards or so that you need for the table top, and glue them up in panel clamps.

2) Put the boards you need to use in panel clamps, and leave them for a week or so to re-acclimate.

3) (This is what I regularly do) - Stack and sticker the boards needed for the table top and base, with stickers every 2 feet or so, on a reasonably flat surface (if the concrete floor in your shop's level, that'll do). Then stack car batteries, gallon milk jugs full of water, or even really heavy rocks in a pinch over the stickers, and let the whole thing set for at least a week.

Again, provided the boards aren't cupped more than about 1/8" over 12" of width, you've a very good chance of flattening these out with this technique, though there is a small risk of a central crack developing. If that occurs, you're simply back to the starting point with having to rip them in two.

Note that I wouldn't bother with this if it weren't a table top, but my personal opinion is that a table top should be built up with as few boards as possible - preferably a single board.