Red vs. White vs. other Oak sp.

[Chris Padilla]

Can some of you shed some light on what you consider the chief differences between red and white oak? (Are there others available? Black, maybe?)

I know there is a color difference but for those of you that have worked both, what did you find you like/disliked about each species?

My wife has suddenly discovered quartersawn oak. She was never a fan of flatsawn oak and therefore not an oak fan but she saw a qs oak kitchen display at the San Jose Home/Garden show yesterday and was like, "What is that wood? That is pretty cool!" She was shocked to find out it was oak and learned something about how lumber may be cut from logs and how it can look very different. :)

[Gary Whitt]

White oak is used for barrels (think of Jim Beam, Jack Daniels, etc. :p ;) ) and things that get wet.

[Greg Heppeard]

White oak is a fair choice for outside projects. It's more resistant to rot and insect damage than red oak. Don't use red oak outside. Quarter sawn white oak was the primary choice for Mission style furniture. As a cabinet maker, I'm bored with seeing red oak everywhere (unless the design is unique). I don't mind the look of white oak (unstained).

[Bob Hovde]

Chris,

I made a built-in desk in the kitchen using white oak for the end panels. (I found a 15" wide piece - not at HD!) I've made kitchen cabinet faces from red oak, and the white seems to be more dense and considerably harder than red oak. (At least, it seemed that way when I was doing a relief carving in it!) Also, the grain seemed tighter. Your tools have to be SHARP! When it's all done, however, it's beautiful wood. :)

Bob

[Mark Singer]

Chris,
One very important beggining to a great project is to start with great wood. I don't do any staining....I love the natural beauty of the wood to "speak" as its life continues as furniture. As you know, a lot of time goes into each peice of furniture that is hand made...start with great wood! White quartersawn oak has the figuring and "rays" that make it special. Red oak is a much more ordinary wood....not worth putting your good time and hard work into.

[Donnie Raines]

Red oak is open pored. White oak is closed pored.

White oak is more dense.

The color is diffrent(as has been pointed out already).

Both are very attractive when qrt sawn. White oak is a bit more dashing in this form. The rays are larger.

Like all lumber, the beauty lies in the artisan.

[Alan Turner]

Chris,
I have a bit of English brown oak, which is a sort of medium brown, and has a more attractive grain than red oak, and to my eye white oak. Seems softer than white oak. Some is burled, and that is quite striking. There may be other types as well. Lacewwod is called silky oak in Australia, but I don't know if it is related to oak.
Alan

[Chris Padilla]

Cool...great info on oak that I wasn't aware of initially. I have some lacewood at home...neat stuff. :)

[Jim Becker]

The most noteworthy distinction between "white" oaks and "red" oaks (there are multiple species in each catagory) is in the pore structure as mentioned. A piece of red oak can be used as a soda straw...hence, the reason it's ill-suited to outdoor projects. You might want to pick up a copy of Bruce Hoadley's Understanding Wood and/or his Identifying Wood. They really get into the basis for all this kind of thing and being the analytical person you are, should make for interesting bathroom reading... :D

[Chris Padilla]

Actually, I have both of his books. I shall look up oak and see what it is all about.

[Walt Pater]

Let's put a mention in here for riftsawn oak, as well. You don't get the tiger effect, but you do get a nice, straight grain. And some stability is added (vs. flatsawn), or so I am told.

[Todd Burch]

There are several dozen species of white oaks and red oaks both. However, by the time they hit a sawmill, they are broadley categorized as either white or red.

I have harvested a lot of "white oaks", but more specifically, "post" oak. Post oak gets it name because it is good for posts for fences. As has been said, white oak is a good outdoor wood, and any white oak would be good for a fence post. There is also willow oak. Both post oak and willow oak are not as desireable as a true white oak, as they are more prone to checking, honeycombs, etc.

I've harvested several red oaks too - water oak and southern red oak mostly. Neither of these are as good as the northern species.

A fantastically hard "white" oak is Live Oak. Sharp tools are important, but big BIG HP motors are important too!! The USS Constitution was nicknamed "Old Ironsides" because cannon balls would bounce off of it. It was made from Live Oak. It's specific gravity is .95 - just about as heavy as water.

Some oaks, depending on where they grew, are more susceptible to mineral staining and streaking. Appilachian red oak comes to mind as a less desirable red oak.

Both oaks can be upland or lowland oaks. Think of growing on the top of a hill (upland) or in a valley (lowland). The upland oak will have more growth rings per inch, as it grows slower, versus the lowland that gets more water and grows faster - bigger (wider) rings.

Scarlet red oak is beautiful red. I'm sure you've been in a lumber store and seen both pale and vibrant red oaks. This is most likely because you are looking at different species that got mixed at the sawmill or drying yard. Smaller, specialty mills are a good source for your hunt for a specific red or white oak.

I think what gives oak a bad rap is two things. First, rotary cut oak plywood. This is when they peel the wood off like toilet paper. It's not a natural look and creates huge cathedrals. Rotary cutting gives a great yield to a veneer log and there is less piecing (stitching) together. Second bad rap is bad finishing. Oak's huge pores REALLY collect pigment and cause a big contrast between the latewood and earlywood; earlywood being the wood that grows in the spring - faster growing - bigger pores, whie late wood is the summer growth. Filling these pores or choosing a finish schedule that does not include a pigment stain really helps the look of any finished oak.

I have used both rift sawn and quartersawn red oak. Both are beautiful. Here's a countertop I made on a built-in back in '99 with QSRO. At the time, the 1/4" thick ply cost me $53 a sheet. I filled the pores, stained it, then brushed a varnish on it.

Probably more than you wanted to know. :)

[Chris Padilla]

More, Dr. Burch, I need more!! ;) Thank you for the abstract, now I'm ready for the dissertation! :p

[Jim Taylor]

I have read that White Oak can be steamed in a... I think ammonia solution? The projects which I have seen steamed this way look awesome, it really brings out a deaper brown color.

I've seen white oak have a yellowish color, which I can't stand, and it has kept me away from the wood (might be the finish)... much prefered that steamed look.

Anyone know how to do this?

[Jamie Buxton]

[QUOTE=Chris Padilla]Can some of you shed some light on what you consider the chief differences between red and white oak? (Are there others available? Black, maybe?)

QUOTE]

Chris ---
Black oak, at least here in California, is a red oak which grows in the Sierras. I've worked with black oak -- I have several rooms in my home which are floored with it -- and I have a difficult time distinguishing it from the generic red oak (probably from Tennessee or the like) in the lumberyard.

Now, when you ask about "others", lemme tell you about live oak. California live oaks are the predominant native tree for 100 miles around your home. Unfortunately, it generally only used for fire wood. This is a pity. It is beautiful lumber. When you look at it, you can tell it is a red oak, but it isn't the bland stuff in your lumberyard. It is often darker, with swirls of brown and black in it. The ray fleck is much more prominent. And, because the tree is so gnarly, the lumber has lots interesting grain patterns in it.
The downside with live oak is that there is no commercial market in the lumber. You need to pull it out of firewood, or find an amateur sawyer who has cut and dried it.

Jamie

[Dale Thompson]

The most noteworthy distinction between "white" oaks and "red" oaks (there are multiple species in each catagory) is in the pore structure as mentioned. A piece of red oak can be used as a soda straw...hence, the reason it's ill-suited to outdoor projects. You might want to pick up a copy of Bruce Hoadley's Understanding Wood and/or his Identifying Wood. They really get into the basis for all this kind of thing and being the analytical person you are, should make for interesting bathroom reading... :D


Jim,
Are you sure about the Red Oak being the "soda straw". With my short memory, I seem to recall that the ONLY way to differentiate between Red and White Oak is to take a 10-12" piece and blow through it parallel to the grain. If you CAN, it is White Oak. Otherwise it is Red Oak. :confused:
In any event, I know that White Oak is sometimes red and Red Oak is sometimes white. When cut into lumber, even experts have a hard time distinguishing between the two. By the way, if I'm wrong, I'd like to know. I use a lot of Oak. It makes GREAT scrap - that's my specialty!! ;) :(

Dale T.

[Dan Mages]

I was at the lumber supply house today and they had Tasmanian Oak. Anything special about that stuff?

[Jim Becker]

Are you sure about the Red Oak being the "soda straw". With my short memory, I seem to recall that the ONLY way to differentiate between Red and White Oak is to take a 10-12" piece and blow through it parallel to the grain. If you CAN, it is White Oak. Otherwise it is Red Oak.
Just the opposite, Dale. Red = "straw"

[Vince Sandy]

Many good replys and a lot of good info, but I'll add my $.02. About two years ago we refinished some existing hard wood floors and installed hard wood in many other parts of the house. We purchased red oak t&g flooring to match the existing floors. From what I remember, the red oak is not as strong or durable as white oak, but is certainly acceptable (and common) for residential use. White oak is stronger and more durable than red oak and is commonly used in commercial flooring applications. I had read that it can be very difficult to tell the difference between red oak and white oak and that the best way to do so is to examine the end grain. If the end grain contained holes then it is red oak. These holes are actually the ends of the "tubes" or "straws" that run with the grain. During our remodeling I picked through some of the cut-offs to verify the "drinking straw" characteristic of red oak and enjoyed the process of confirming that the wood was red oak. I could place one end of the piece in a few inches of water and blow through the other end and make bubbles. My young son thought is was neat too. ;)

With that said, I can also confirm that the color variance in red oak runs the spectrum of reds, whites and browns. We also ended up with flat sawn, rift sawn and quarter sawn which I suspect is also common in flooring. We chose a clear finish because some of the wood was plenty dark enough for our preferences. We think it turned out beautifully and so far I have been able to convince my wife not to cover the wood with rugs; something which has really never made sense to me.

Vince in NC

[Greg Heppeard]

Hey Guys, here's an oak species that no one has mentioned yet. I'm sure that a lot of you know about the Black Oak Arkansas. :D

[Gary Whitt]

Don't forget the Oak K Corral! :D :rolleyes:

[Chris Padilla]

Chris ---
Black oak, at least here in California, is a red oak which grows in the Sierras. I've worked with black oak -- I have several rooms in my home which are floored with it -- and I have a difficult time distinguishing it from the generic red oak (probably from Tennessee or the like) in the lumberyard.

Now, when you ask about "others", lemme tell you about live oak. California live oaks are the predominant native tree for 100 miles around your home. Unfortunately, it generally only used for fire wood. This is a pity. It is beautiful lumber. When you look at it, you can tell it is a red oak, but it isn't the bland stuff in your lumberyard. It is often darker, with swirls of brown and black in it. The ray fleck is much more prominent. And, because the tree is so gnarly, the lumber has lots interesting grain patterns in it.
The downside with live oak is that there is no commercial market in the lumber. You need to pull it out of firewood, or find an amateur sawyer who has cut and dried it.

Jamie
Jamie,

Cool...thanks for a local view of oak trees. Actually, I happen to have a 200-250 year old Live Oak tree in my back yard. It is one of the main reasons we bought the house. Its trunk diameter must be about 3'. Our little neighborhood, in fact, is call Thousand Oaks. There are many Live Oaks around and all are at least 200 years old...some have got to be pushing 300, I think. Interesting thing about a lot of the oaks, they all lean south. I think a decent flood must have pushed them one year early on in their youth--the Guadalupe River is less than a 1/4 mile from my house. Some of the older/bigger ones are still straight.

If I am still owner of the house when my oak tree dies or needs taken down (not likely, I think...kinda hope!), there will be some very interesting grain from it but I fear due to the lean, a lot of it will be reactionary wood. :(

[Joseph N. Myers]

I've used lots of both white and red oak in the past and white oak is my favorite mainly because of it's outside use.

1. Yes, red = straw.

2. The easiest way to tell the difference between the two (according to Hoadley, Identifying Wood, pages 103-104) is by looking at the rays on the outside of the board. Red oak rays will be absent or sparse and almost always less that an inch. White oak rays will be abundant and many of them are over 1 1/4 to 2 inches long. The "rays" in this case, look like pieces of black thread and are straight.

I've always had great luck with this method but even Hoadley says that the method is only 90 to 95% reliable. The exceptions are longer or shorter rays and by checking for tyloses (cell that you can check on the end grain using a hand len).

3. Both red and white oak (and red/white cedar, redwood and some other) wood contains tannic acid which will stain the wood if normal screws/nails are used. (Even seen cedar siding with the stain marks dripping down from the nail holes). In the past, tannic acid was used for tanning animal hides and ink (wonder if that is where the word tannic came from?)

Because of that, stainless steel screws/nails are recommended or something with some type of plating such as double zinc or double galvanized. For the above woods, I use McFeely's "no-code-rode" and always counter sink and plug them. Lot more work but no problems so far (and some white oak and cedar outside for over 10 years).

4. Again, according to Hoadley, "some of the major of the red and white oak groups" are:

Red: Scarlet, Southern, California black, Pin, Northern and Black

White: White, Swamp, Oregon, Overcup, Bur, Sessile, Chestnut, European and Post

Some of the ones missing from his list (from the internet) are Live, Cherry Bark, Gobbler Sawtooth, Nuttall, Water and Willow. I have no idea if they are red or white.

5. One of the posts mentioned Live Oak. I seem to remember that one of the woodworking magazines said that they were called "live" because the leaves stayed on the tree throughout the winter and finally fell off when the new leave grew back. People complained about them because they had to rake the leaves even during the winter.

I also remember that they are/were used for boat building and lots of them were planted way back when along the southern shores to assure a good supply of it for future boat building.

Regards, Joe

[Jamie Buxton]

Jamie,

Cool...thanks for a local view of oak trees. Actually, I happen to have a 200-250 year old Live Oak tree in my back yard. It is one of the main reasons we bought the house. Its trunk diameter must be about 3'. Our little neighborhood, in fact, is call Thousand Oaks. There are many Live Oaks around and all are at least 200 years old...some have got to be pushing 300, I think. Interesting thing about a lot of the oaks, they all lean south. I think a decent flood must have pushed them one year early on in their youth--the Guadalupe River is less than a 1/4 mile from my house. Some of the older/bigger ones are still straight.

If I am still owner of the house when my oak tree dies or needs taken down (not likely, I think...kinda hope!), there will be some very interesting grain from it but I fear due to the lean, a lot of it will be reactionary wood. :(

Chris --
Your tree is probably a Valley Oak. A tree that big is probably old enough that it is a native. The two native oaks in the Santa Clara valley are Live Oaks and Valley Oaks. The Valley Oak is the biggest of the native California oaks. Mature ones are big beautiful trees. They tend to grow in the valleys and near rivers, so they send roots down to the water table in our long dry season. The Valley Oak is deciduous, and the leaves have lobes without prickles. It is in the white oak group.
Your oak should outlive you by a good long margin, if you don't abuse it. California oaks don't like getting their roots disturbed, so don't dig close to it. They are also unaccustomed to surface water in the summer, and will rot at the base of the tree if they do get too much of it. A good thing to do for them is to have a big area around the tree where there is no lawn, and where you don't water. One attractive approach is a bed of river cobbles.

Jamie

[Jamie Buxton]

Chris, while'll we're talking about oaks with colors in the name, there's another to mention: tan oak. It is called tan oak not because it is light brown in color, but because the bark was used to tan animal hides. The appearence of the tree is quite confusing. The leaves look more like beech than any oak, but the thing does grow acorns. The botanists say that it is kinda in between the true oaks and the beeches. Here in California, it grows as the understory in redwood forests.
Jamie

[Chris Padilla]

Valley Oak!! That's it! :) I've heard that one, too. Yes, the city does have restrictions placed upon them and as large as they are, they are most likely native to the area. There are a good 15-20 of them in the housing area and they are all quite large. It really makes our back yard special...makes a mess of it, too! :rolleyes:

We have a brick pathway built up around it and cobble-stone mulch right at the base so I guess the previous owners must've consulted with you at one time! ;)

Great discussion...I'm learning a lot about oak in general.

[Jim Becker]

Valley Oak!! That's it!
"O'mi' Gauwd..."

[Dale Thompson]

Just the opposite, Dale. Red = "straw"

Jim,
Thanks! How old do I have to get before I learn SOMETHING? :confused:
Aw Heck - on SMC I don't gots ta no nuttin' - I jus ask!! ;)

Dale T.