Making thick boards from thin ones

[Anthony Whitesell]

When you need to make thick boards from thin ones (ie., laminating boards but not veneering), what glue do you prefer?

I have been using Titebond yellow glue, but I'm hoping my rookie knowledge has me limited and there's something better out there.

[Jamie Buxton]

I've used PVAs like Titebond for lamination. It works, and it is convenient. Urea-formaldehyde or some epoxies have longer working times, if that's of concern to you. They're also stronger water-resistant, and don't creep, but those aren't issues in woodwork which is indoors, and which isn't stressed like bent-lamination.

Let's turn the question back to you. You've used Titebond. Is there something about that which you don't like?

[Bob Genovesi]

In most cases I'm trying to make some shape other than flat. I generally determine the shape I want, make a form to clamp against then start applying glue to both surfaces. I've been using TiteBond 3 quite a lot lately as it's water proof once it's dry and its working time is longer. I start clamping in the center and work my way toward the ends using equal pressure.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Just that it tends to be slippery. Maybe I'm using too much. I wanted to see what others were using to see if I should change my product or technique. (That's what I love about the 'creek. Lots of people with lots of experience and lots of ideas and options.)

[Mark Singer]

tightbond or plastic resin are good
The plastic resin gives you more time

[Jamie Buxton]

Just that it tends to be slippery. Maybe I'm using too much. I wanted to see what others were using to see if I should change my product or technique. (That's what I love about the 'creek. Lots of people with lots of experience and lots of ideas and options.)

You might be using too much glue. One issue lamination is that excess glue doesn't have anywhere to go. In many other kinds of joinery, excess glue squeezes out the sides or the bottom or someplace. In lamination and veneer, glue from the middle isn't ever going to get all the way to the edges. So it is good to take a little more care with the amount of glue. Consider the cured glue line made at a good butt joint between two boards in a table top. It is maybe .005" thick; .015" looks very thick. That's the kind of glue line you're aiming for laminations too. The amount of fluid glue which produces .005" of cured glue is maybe .01" thick. So when you're spreading glue on your laminations, aim at getting the surface wet everywhere, but not much more than that.

[Charlie Plesums]

When I am using PVA glue, I sometimes sprinkle a little sand (kept in an old salt shaker) to reduce the slipperies.

If the wood is not identical species with grain perfectly aligned, then the creep in the PVA glue is an advantage... lets the stress relieve without breaking the joint. If the joint is naturally under stress (like bent wood laminations) then I prefer the Urea Formaldehyde (plastic resin)

[Jim Kountz]

I just picked up a bottle of Titebond Extended Time from my Rockler store the other day. Havent tried it out yet but its just for this type of work, gives a longer open time.

[Charlie Plesums]

I just picked up a bottle of Titebond Extended Time from my Rockler store the other day. Havent tried it out yet but its just for this type of work, gives a longer open time.

Another way to get extended open time from PVA glue is with a water mist. The glue sets by a chemical reaction that starts when the water evaporates (the water keeps the reaction from occurring). Therefore when I need a longer open time, I put a tiny mist of water on the work piece (so the wood absorbs less of the water from the glue), and sometimes spray a mist on the glue after it is applied.

Doing this can drastically delay the tack time... the effect where the work starts to stick as you are aligning it, making alignment more difficult. Not a problem if you are prepared for it.

Being a cheapskate, the only PVA glue I use is Titebond Original or the comparable Borden's Carpenter glue. These also allow water (and elbow grease) cleanup after they dry.

[Karl Brogger]

When ever I laminate things, make them bigger than the finished piece will be. If I'm thinking ahead I'll pin nail it somewhere that will be cut off anyway. That keeps things lined up well enough usually. Not always possible, but keeping clamps as straight as possible helps.

[Chris Padilla]

Depending upon how thin the pieces are, you could use biscuits appropriately placed to keep things from slipping around.

I often use Karl's method and shoot a pin or two. 23 gauge pin nails are TINY and nearly invisible but will hold pieces together very well while clamping.

Tiny brads clipped short with a pair of dikes or wire cutters also works well.

[Rich Enders]

A recent project used 38 inch long 3 1/2 inch wide by 1 1/8 inch thick rectangular air dried white oak legs that had to turn 90 degrees using a 4 inch radius. 3/32 inch thick layers cracked when bent dry so they were soaked in hot water for an hour prior to prebending them in the form. After drying in the form for a day or two they were taken out and allowed to air dry for a couple more days. At this point the laminations were back below 10% moisture, but had retained only about half of the "prebend".

Resorcinol, Unibond, and DAP Weldwood were each tried for the final glue up, and all three gave a strong bond with almost no spring back. No Titebonds were tried, because our low humidity reduces the open time, and each leg took about 10-20 minutes to assemble and clamp.

For this project the Weldwood was the hands down winner. I think this is because it is water based, and the water resoftened the oak making it easier to get it back into the shape in the form. In retrospect using Weldwood might have eliminated the need for presoaking and prebending the laminations.

The Resorcinol was the thickest and most difficult to mix and spread, and it leaves a very dark red glue line. The Unibond and the Weldwood were easy to mix and apply, and the base color is light. Unibond gives the additional option of light or dark catalyst to better match your ultimate color.

Perhaps dampening the laminations as suggested would extend the open time of Titebond enough, but my past experience (with the original) Titebond on smaller projects yielded more spring back.

Has anyone found a system for tight bends without presoaking and prebending? I was unable to go thinner than 3/32 inch laminations on my planer because the oak started to come apart at small defects. A thickness sander would probably allow me to go thinner, but the oak was so brittle, that it still might not bend without cracking.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I now have a heavy complicated glue to do for one project I'm working on.

From the LONGEST to the SHORTEST open times, can someone list the various glues available. I think I'm going to need something with a longer open time than regular Titebond. Don't forget to include Titebond II and III.

[Aaron Wingert]

Titebond extend has the longest open time of the Titebond series. It isn't significantly longer in my experience.

[Chris Padilla]

Max for PVAs (white and yellow) is not much longer than 15 minutes and can be as short as a couple of minutes.

Realize that open times are impacted by temperature and humidity levels. Charlie's trick about misting with water is a testament to this.

In my experience, Titebond II Extend has about the same open time as Titebond III...about 12-15 minutes depending upon the environment.

Titebond I is the shortest at under 10 minutes (more like 5 minutes, I think). Titebond also makes a "molding/trim" glue that has an open time around a minute (handy if you're handholding something together).

[Chris Padilla]

You might be using too much glue. One issue lamination is that excess glue doesn't have anywhere to go. In many other kinds of joinery, excess glue squeezes out the sides or the bottom or someplace. In lamination and veneer, glue from the middle isn't ever going to get all the way to the edges. So it is good to take a little more care with the amount of glue. Consider the cured glue line made at a good butt joint between two boards in a table top. It is maybe .005" thick; .015" looks very thick. That's the kind of glue line you're aiming for laminations too. The amount of fluid glue which produces .005" of cured glue is maybe .01" thick. So when you're spreading glue on your laminations, aim at getting the surface wet everywhere, but not much more than that.

The foam glue rollers (http://www.veneersupplies.com/product_info.php?cPath=86_37&products_id=382) at www.veneersupplies.com (http://www.veneersupplies.com) are FANTASTIC! I highly recommend them for even spreading out of glue on your projects. I'm using it with the cold press glue and it works nicely to evenly coat things.

[Peter Quinn]

I use Titebond III for flat face laminations, and west systems epoxy for bent laminations. For flat laminations I leave the material a bit long and wide and toe nail brads (the old fashioned kind, with a hammer) to keep the boards from sliding when clamped. I leave the nails a bit proud so they can be removed later. I usually make a sandwich of several layers of material to be laminated and clamp the whole assembly, seems to work better. I apply the adhesive with a foam roller from the local True Value, nothing fancy there, or I apply a good bead of glue on smaller work and spread it with a Speedball (a rubber roller that can be found in artist supply stores in the silk screen or printing section).

I hate titebond extend for anything. It may have a theoretical longer open time, but it seems to be thicker and tacks up on contact making actual adjustment of parts alignments challenging. I have yet to find a situation where it has performed better than type III.

[Chris Padilla]

Peter,

I clamp my stuff in my vacuum press.... ;)