Combination Machines?

[Jason Yeager]

Anyone out there use one of the 5 in 1 combination machines from companies like minimax or felder? I am considering moving that direction and would appreciate any input on the pros/cons, likes/dislikes, general impressions on brands, etc.

Thanks a ton

[David DeCristoforo]

1) The biggest advantage over "single purpose" machines is space, not cost. But cost savings can be realized in the areas of electrical and DC.

2) You need to be very "linear" in managing your work flow. The constant need to change over from one configuration to another can become tedious. No matter what they tell you at the shows or how quickly they can convert from one operation to another in the showroom, you will never be able to do it that quickly in your shop under "real world" conditions.

Big Felder fan here.... Mini-Max is also very impressive as are some others with which I personally have no direct experience.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Jason, you picked the two brands that I looked at before I recently bought a Felder CF 741.

I wanted a set of higher quality tools that would fit my smallish shop. The combo makes sense for me because I am a one man show, and the space savings are dramatic. I bought the Felder without ever seeing one in the flesh, which was scary, and probably stupid, but as it turns out, brilliant. The quality of this machine so far surpasses anything else I have ever seen, that it nearly boggles the grey cells.

One of the major points you will hear to detract from combos is that changeover takes too long. The swap from jointer to planer being the biggest time hog. I timed a change last week, and from ready to joint to ready to plane at about 30 seconds. 23 actually. This includes unlatching the table and flipping it up, flipping the dust hood over, setting the planer speed, and holding the switch to get the table to 3/4". I said around 30 because I have a dust collection hose that I just leave attached to the hood, with enough slack so that it flips with the hood. Figure a little longer if you want to fiddle with changing the dust collector hose for some reason. This is probably only possible on an electrically adjusted planer table, which I would highly recommend.

These machines are usually full on custom from the factory, so you can pick and choose what you want to match what you do, which brings up the next question, what do you want to do with your hypothetical combo?

There are options for the options, which can be a little intimidating (I think), and someone will mention the Felder owners group on Yahoo to help out there. I won't. I found that sight to be the most akward danged thing to try to navigate, and I got far more help here than there.

Both MiniMax and Felder have well paid sales staff who will be more then happy to send you a pile of tool pinups. These beasts are not cheap, but the price will be forgotten the first time you use the slider.:D

[Mark Singer]

I have the MiniMax TechnoMax Elite 16" J/P with mortiser. It really is great

[Jason Yeager]

Thanks fellas.

In response to your question Steve, I am mainly interested in producing cabinets and passage doors, with some furniture thrown on top as a garnish. Although I haven't used one, the sliding table saws seem incredible, and the ability to process sheet goods quickly seems like a huge advantage. With the table saws costing just below some of the combos, it seems like the combo could be the way to go.

For those of you with a 16" J/P combo, or the same size on a full combination machine, how much of advantage is it to have the extra 4" over a 12" unit? How often do you think you utilize the extra capacity?

Also, it appears that a sliding table able to accomodate ripping full sheets of plywood is a great feature, rather than having a sliding table with only a 5-7' capacity. Do you agree?

Thanks again for your time and input!

[David DeCristoforo]

"...it appears that a sliding table able to accomodate ripping full sheets of plywood is a great feature, rather than having a sliding table with only a 5-7' capacity..."

The 5 foot slider makes some sense because you can crosscut a 4 foot wide sheet. But the 7 foot slider is (IMMHO) an "oddball". Still cuts 4 feet but cannot straightline an 8 foot sheet. If you were going to spend the dough for a longer slider, you would be much better off with an 8 foot slider.

[Rich Enders]

I am on my second MiniMax. The CU 300 is a rock solid 1400 lbs which is mostly cast iron and it seems to have power to spare. Even at this weight it is easily movable on the mobility kit. The sliding table is an excellent feature, and the reversible shaper handles router bits as well as shaper cutters. The MiniMax is built by SCMI the Italian company famous for their industrial woodworking equipment. Even so this is the Volkswagen of the combination machines. The Felder that I saw at a woodworking show is the BMW.

The change overs do take a half a minute or so, and it forces some planning to minimize the number.

The small footprint means that everything is jammed into a small space and difficult to work on.

MiniMax has been reasonable to work with, and maybe now that the Euro is weak their prices could come back to earth.

[Brad Shipton]

I have a Hammer Saw/shaper and J/P. If you have the space and the $$, I would not go with a combo. For me, that was not an option, but in the future they will be replaced with separate european machines. I have found these two machines work great given my space constraint, but there has been many times where it would be handy to be able to cut down parts on the saw while using the shaper.

Only you can decide upon the need for a wide J/P. I just recently got an order of Tigerwood and I sure coud use a 16" right now, but I didnt have a use for it for the last 1000bdft of cherry. I would try to get a machine with a 120mm dia head with at least four blades. If you can bankroll the Tersa option, that will give you a few more knife options than Felder offers. CGSchmidt and many others sell many other Tersa options than Felder. My 80mm head has lead to a bit of tearout on some stock and getting a Byrd Shellix is proving to be a bit of a nuisance.

The first time you clamp down a sheet good to the slider and whisp it through, you will be astounded. As to the length, if you can fit a 10', go for it. I went with an 80" thinking I would be primarily using Baltic Birch, and there has been many times where a 10' would be nice. I ended up making a 10' jig to straightline rough stock. There is a thread on the Woodweb about slider length and 10' is the most common suggestion.

I see you mention passage doors. One nice thing about the Felder and Minimax machines is the 3/4" dado head. European rules do not permit the typical NA stacked dado set, so they use a shaper cutter in the saw. They have scribers (removable) on both sides of the cutter and the tips are flat so they make a perfectly flat cut. They are not cheap, but once you use one you will appreciate it. It works great with the slider and a clamp down device to make big tenons. The big tenon cutters are pretty darn expensive.

I have had good luck with Felder, but I know minimax is the same quality. I dont know anything about Rojek/Knapp/Griggio/Casolin or some of the other European machines. Personally, I would stay away from some of the North American combos. The safety regs in Europe are much stricter and this means european machines have many nice litte safety features I doubt NA co's have picked up on.

Brad

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Thanks fellas.

In response to your question Steve, I am mainly interested in producing cabinets and passage doors, with some furniture thrown on top as a garnish. Although I haven't used one, the sliding table saws seem incredible, and the ability to process sheet goods quickly seems like a huge advantage. With the table saws costing just below some of the combos, it seems like the combo could be the way to go.

For those of you with a 16" J/P combo, or the same size on a full combination machine, how much of advantage is it to have the extra 4" over a 12" unit? How often do you think you utilize the extra capacity?

Also, it appears that a sliding table able to accomodate ripping full sheets of plywood is a great feature, rather than having a sliding table with only a 5-7' capacity. Do you agree?

Thanks again for your time and input!

Jason, you are asking and answering the same questions the same way that led me to the CF 741. I went with the 8' 6"ish slider, because a 10 footer won't fit in my shop. If you have the room, get the ten. The only drawback to a long sliding table that I can see would be the extra mass, and the extra force needed to move it. May become an issue if you are repeating the same 3" cutoff, 1000 times or something.

I have the 16" J/P on mine, and while I don't suppose I will use the extra capacity often, however I do recall several instances when it would have been usefull with my old Dewalt 12" planer to have the extra 4". It does cost more though...

As an aside, X-Roll is awsome. The table on my saw weighs somewhere close to 200#, not counting the outrigger or table. It is absolutly effortless to slide though.

Rich's CU300 weighs 1400#, the shipping documents on my Felder said 2600# without the 200# slider, and I'm sure none of the others are lightweights either. These are massive, precisely engineered, extreemely accurate machines. Far better then anything else out there that I know about.

[Jim Becker]

I have a 14" (well, 350mm) MiniMax J/P and a MiniMax S315WS sliding table saw. For me, this is a great combination, as it were. I don't have a huge shop, so the combo J/P gets me big capacities in a small footprint. I tend to work with wider lumber and also like it flat...hence the wide jointer capacity is a must for my preferences. Matching capacity on the planer works very nicely for thicknessing. I rarely use the jointer for edges; instead preferring to straight line rip on the slider with the material clamped to the wagon after flattening and thicknessing is complete. I have the 8' 6" slider on my saw. I chose not to go with the saw/shaper combo, both for financial reasons and because I felt that I wouldn't get a lot of use out of the shaper for the things I build compared to my top-end router table setup and relative to the cost of tooling. (I also have a MiniMax M16 bandsaw, although that function wasn't in you original inquiry)

Both MiniMax and Felder make great equipment. Felder offers you the opportunity to "build" your machines exactly the way you want them while MiniMax tends to offer machines that are full featured "out of the crate". (Felder's Hammer line also is worthy) Both are valid methods for buying and selling. Felder does offer a few additional options and if they are things you really need, then it's nice to know you can get them. Both companies are known for decent customer service.

[Craig McCormick]

I have a very small shop so I went with a used Robland X31 saw, shaper, jointer, planer, mortiser. It works well for me in my small space. I love the sliding table. You can buy a used X31 for less than $3500. I have seen them as low as $2500

AZCRAIG

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I am on my second MiniMax. The CU 300 is a rock solid 1400 lbs which is mostly cast iron and it seems to have power to spare. Even at this weight it is easily movable on the mobility kit. The sliding table is an excellent feature, and the reversible shaper handles router bits as well as shaper cutters. The MiniMax is built by SCMI the Italian company famous for their industrial woodworking equipment. Even so this is the Volkswagen of the combination machines. The Felder that I saw at a woodworking show is the BMW.

The change overs do take a half a minute or so, and it forces some planning to minimize the number.

The small footprint means that everything is jammed into a small space and difficult to work on.

MiniMax has been reasonable to work with, and maybe now that the Euro is weak their prices could come back to earth.

Rich, I think you are right about the price coming down, or at least generating some really interesting deals. If you buy a Felder or Hammer now, if I read this right, they'll throw in a really nice bandsaw or dust collector. Wish I would have waited a month...:(

[Jason Yeager]

How long would you guys wait? If you have any inside information that would be incredible. Kind of a crapshoot based on what I know.

Also, what do you think about a used machine? Most of them are a long ways from me, definitely hard to look at without a serious investment.

Many thanks

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Jason, that deal with the bandsaw got my interest, beyond that I'm no help. The warranty is peace of mind, if it's important to you, new is the answer. If you don't mind a little risk for a lot of savings, used may make sense. There are a lot of moving parts and electronics on one of these, neither of which tolerate idiots well. Moving companies loose, drop, mangle things, as could anybody who dosen't comprehend what they are dealing with. There are also a bunch of accesories that could become lost easily. Guess what I'm trying to say is if you buy used, make sure you know what you are buying. Minimax and Felder both have used machines listed on their sites all the time though, which I'd think might warrant investigation.

[tim rowledge]

I see in the latest FWW that Felder are offering some good looking deals - a 'free' big bandsaw and/or DC for example.

[Brian Buckley]

Jason,
I have a MiniMax 410 Elite. It has the 16 " Jointer/ Planer that is nice when you need it. I have owned the unit for about 4 years and could not be happier.
The service and advice from MiniMax has been fantastic. They are the type of people I enjoy doing business with. If you have any questions please let me know.

Brian