Roubo bench top thickness

[Zach Dillinger]

All,

Sorry for yet another bench thread. I'm growing rather tired of my maple Continental style bench (too light, too short). I'm looking at constructing a Roubo bench like Chris Schwarz featured in his Workbench book. I have some 12/4 beech that I got for free from a local sawmill that was shutting down. I could easily use this to make the 24" wide, 8 foot long bench, but it would be significantly thinner that the 4" called for in Schwarz's plan. I can probably squeeze 2.75" inches after jointing / planing the planks square. Do you think this will give me enough thickness / mass to make a good, sturdy bench for handtool use? If not, I can just go buy the Southern Yellow pine, but I'd like to at least look at using the beech.

What do you all think?

Zach Dillinger
Charlotte, MI

[Bill Houghton]

or 12/4 boards that you could rip to 4", flip sideways, and glue together?

[Richard Magbanua]

Zach,
No apologies needed for talking about workbenches. I will be putting the finishing touches on my "Schwarz" bench soon. My top ended up being 3-1/2" after glueup and seems plenty stout. If you start at 12/4 you may end up quite thinner after milling and glueup depending on how straight every thing ends up. If you end up much thinner, you could add a stretcher under both ends of the top. I think dave anderson did this... oh yeah, here it is...

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=93316

keep us updated!

[David Keller NC]

Zack - There's another reason for "standing the 12/4 boards on end" when you glue-up the bench-top. Doing so will give you quarter-sawn grain on the faces of the top, which means that most of the expansion/contraction with changes in humidity will occur in the thickness of the top, not the width. That generally makes the whole construction considerably more stable, and the top tends to stay flat rather than cupping/bowing/twisting.

I'm not absoutely certain about this, but I seem to remember that Chris stated in one of his blog entries on the subject that his Roubo bench had a 4" thick top.

[Floyd Mah]

Here's another option. I built both of the Schwartz workbenches. Well, actually, I made a hybrid harlequin which ended up being both of the benches with the features that I liked:
I wanted the leg vise, but I wanted the leg to be slanted like in the English bench, for the extra capacity. The leg vise ended up slanted.
I liked the wide apron, but I felt that the ability to clamp to the top, especially in the front was important. The front 10 inches of the bench became a 4" by 10" glued up beam. This gave the bench some mass and stiffness for hand tool work in the front. The back 14" became a plank of 1.25" thickness. It is stiffened at the rear by an apron (about 10" high). The top is fastened at the front, and floats on the base. I figured that the rear of the bench is more of a support area than a work area.

It turned out that there was an article in FWW which advocated this configuration of the thick front and thinner rear bench top, so that I can't claim complete credit for it, but it may solve your problem of utilizing your lumber and getting a solid bench.

Here's another idea that I came up with while making this bench (I used about $60 of Douglas Fir). I made the dog holes without a router. The usual technique is to get a thicker board and rout(e?) the dog holes. I hate using routers because of the dust raised. I used two normal width boards to sandwich a contrasting wood (mahogany) board which was slightly thicker than the dogs. The mahogany was precut in pieces on a bandsaw to the specifications of the dog hole, including the slight tilt and retaining notch. I then glued up the pieces, using a nailer and spacer to position each piece, ending up with a sandwich which I planed down to final thickness. I was also able to fit the wagon vise into the assembly without most of the hardware that Chris Schwartz used since the top was 4" thick and the screw block was part of the top.

While I'm talking about my good ideas, here's another one. When assembling your leg vise, slip one extra piece of wood on the parallel guide between the leg vise and the leg. If you make it about one half of the distance between the centers of the pin holes, you can fine-tune the open width of the leg vise by placing the pin on either side of the spacer. Gives you more options for the jaw opening, since the canting of the leg vise jaw is important due to the length of the jaw. Optionally, you can make a set of spaces, open at one end which can slip over the parallel guide.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Floyd, please post photos of your bench if you have them in digital format. I'm sure folks would like to see them.

[Zach Dillinger]

All,

The beech that I have is a true 12/4 thick. Two of the planks are just about 10" wide and the other is just under 7.5" wide. They are all 9 feet long. I would love to rip them to 4" and glue them up so that the top shows quartersawn grain, but I don't think that I have enough to do that. Maybe I could build in a tool tray to make up some of the width. I have a tool tray on my Continental style bench and I find it pretty handy.

Thoughts?

Zach

[Zach Dillinger]

All,

I just spent a little time with AutoCAD to work out a design. If I take the beech that I have, get it squared up at 2 3/4 inches thickness, rip it to 3 inches wide, laminate it face to face so that quarter sawn grain forms the top, and purchase a 10/4 filler block, it will give me 24 inches wide. By my calculations, allowing for the table saw kerf, I would get 8 planks, 2.75 inches wide and 3" deep. I would need the additional filler block, either laminated together or a single thick piece, to make a full 24 inches. Does this sound reasonable to you all?

Zach

[Alan DuBoff]

Zach,

FWIW, I built my bench with a 2.75" top, and it is very solid. I know that Schwarz recommends 4" in the Roubo plans, but folks have built them less, and if you have a solid 2.75" top, it will be plenty sturdy. Bob Lang built a bench recently you may have seen and it had about 2.75" - 3.0" top on it. As long as the grain is running the right way, you should be fine with that amount. Do you have pics of the timber?

Of course, thicker is better in most all cases, no denying that on a bench, but I think 2.75" works fine, at least on mine. My legs are 4.5"x4.5" square.

I'm making a modification this week to my bench. I will be modifying the pattern maker's vise on my 'appfelMaker (http://www.softorchestra.com/woodworking/tools/workbench/), to add a 6" hand wheel to replace the handle. The pattern makers vise on my bench is positioned as the end vise, and after seeing Jameel's tail vise, it dawned on me that the screw on the pattern makers vise is very smooth, and it would be well suited for a hand wheel. I ordered a 6" hand wheel and will drill/pin it to the screw when it gets here, to see how it works.

[Zach Dillinger]

Alan,

I'll get some pics of the beech tomorrow and post them. I checked out your website and I'm very impressed with the way your bench is looking. I'm having a very hard time deciding what vise to run in the front and the Veritas twin screw has been high on the list, along with the leg vise from Schwarz's book. I envy your windows, since I work in my rather dark basement. The wood paneling makes for a great looking shop. Nice work!

Zach

[Alan DuBoff]

Zach,

I'm not done with the twin-screw yet, but it's kinda finicky, IMO. I added UHMV wear strips, and getting it dialed in. It works good, just not totally dialed in, and I need to make a cover still...that's the biggest problem right now, it's a PITA without a cover as the chain gets sawdust on it and I brush it off....:(

I use the pattern maker's vise much more, but that could change as I am getting ready to build some type of shelving/cabinet. I'm gonna be using it to work on a saw handle soon. :) The twin-screw is better for sawing joinery for me, in most cases. Maybe the hand wheel will inspire me to finally finish the bench. I use it all the time though...:rolleyes:

[David Keller NC]

Zach - This might get howls of protest from the rest of the members, but if you can't get any more of the beech, I'd suggest using maple to make up the difference. It's readily available (at least in the Eastern US), reasonably priced, and has similar expansion/contraction profiles as beech. With the sort of glue surface you're going to have across the width/length of the planks you're going to use to make the bench, it's highly unlikely you're going to have glue-joint issues, particularly in a controlled environment (i.e., anything other than an unheated shed or the back porch).

The reason I mention this is that you're going to have a lot of work in this bench, and you'll use it for a very long time. Changing the design to accomodate a small savings in material is a mistake, IMO - you'll forget about the $50 you saved, but be shaking your head about not making it as wide or as thick as you desire for a long, long time. I'm not saying that 2.5" thick isn't enough, just that if it's not what you want, don't do it.

Regarding the vises, if you decide you want wooden vise screws, http://www.bigwoodvise.com/index.cfm has a holiday sale on till December 31st - $130 each including shipping.

If you want to save as much as possible and still go with high-quality vise hardware, I'd suggest getting two Jorgensen quick-release vises from Woodcraft - they're made in the US, $150 or so each, and will save you a lot of work on the end-vise postion - just rout a recess in the top for the back face, and 2 screws and 2 bolts and you're done. I've one of these in the face-vise position on a new bench I just completed, they're quality all the way. I considered the Anant vise, but I wasn't pleased with the quality of the metal work, and they were too cheap (made in India - not sure if it was slave labor).

[Zach Dillinger]

David,

If I follow correctly, your suggestion would be to alternate beech and maple to make up to full 24" width. I have actually considered that. It is a distinct possibility that I may go that route, especially if I can get some 12/4 hard maple reasonably priced. As to the vises, I've actually turned my own screws in the past and may do it again, but that is a great deal on the Big Wood vise kit. From what I've read, those are great screws and they would be a great addition to any bench.

I'm going to call around to price 12/4 maple today and figure out what I'll be spending to make up the difference. At this point I'm comfortable with a 3" thick bench but if I can make up the difference reasonably, I will. SWMBO will not be happy if the spending gets out of control.

I'll keep you guys informed.

Zach

[David Keller NC]

Zach - My opinion is that it will not make any difference whether you alternate maple boards with your beech, or simply add width (for example, a "dog strip" on the front of the bench - if you choose square holes, of course). FYI - I buy lumber from Steve Wall in Mayodan, NC. His prices are beyond reasonable, but from shopping there I can tell you that there's a substantial premium on 12/4 maple, and not much difference between 8/4 and 4/4. If you find this to be the case with your supplier, I'd go with 8/4.

Particularly if you're alternating beech and maple boards, the 12/4 and 8/4 widths will definitely look like "I meant to do that" - in other words, a decorative feature. You also may find that getting 9" wide in 8/4 boards will be a lot easier than 12/4 (the 9" width allows you to get 2 4" strips with a little left over for jointing).

By the way, if you decide to go with a leg vise, It's well worth reading this blog post by Jamal Abraham:

http://oudluthier.blogspot.com/2008/07/bench-3-attaching-top-leg-vises.html

This is the final installment in a series of posts about a really clever way to deal with racking on a leg vise. Chris Schwarz called this a "leg vise revolution", and that's a pretty accurate description - the vise stays parallel throughout its range of travel, with no bending over and re-setting a pin.

If I was building a bench (I just finished my latest example, and I'm sick of bench building for the moment), I'd be reading through all of his blog posts - it's clear this gentleman has a keen engineering mind (whether that was his "major" in college or not - I don't know), and he's got a lot of clever ideas about benches and holding work.

BTW - he also produces an incedible end-vise (go to www.benchcrafted.com (http://www.benchcrafted.com)) that was on-sale last Friday. It's not inexpensive, but it has some really nice machining in it, as well as having the unique feature of operating the vise without the vise screw protruding from the bench.