Municipal Broadband Internet service??

[Bob Weisner]

Hi:

Does anyone know what are the steps involved with setting up a Municipal Broadband internet service ?


Thanks,


Bob

[Ken Garlock]

I think what you are looking for is BPL, Broadband over Power Lines. I have a very biased position against it for multiple reasons. Several cities on the east coast are trying it. Several cities and European countries have decided to not go with it using the current technology available. It will without a doubt the biggest polluter of the radio spectrum to ever be foisted off on the public. The sad part is that the head of the FCC is going to push it through without regard to technical opinions.

You can get more information at the ARRL. (http://www.arrl.org)

Another approach is to use a limited range UHF link within a city. The ISP has a small transmitter/receiver on a tower to service the users. Each user has an antenna on their roof pointing at the ISP tower. Each user has a small transmitter/receiver to communicate with the ISP.

Bob, I guess I did a core-dump on you when you mentioned municipal internet. As you can see BPL is a sore point with me :mad: Other than the two methods above, I don't know of any other approach other than the TV cable systems.

Keep us posted on what you find during your search :)

[John Miliunas]

Hey Ken, I certainly do NOT intend to start a "broadband war" here, but I'm still not seeing solutions for the rural resident(s). I have "broadband" here by way of a 1-way satellite system. This still requires me to maintain an ISP and, for sake of peace in the house, a separate phone line. The down-link speeds are pretty good, but up-links are still via the copper lines and slow. The latency is horrific, but fortunately, I'm not an online gamer. The real bad part is, when the weather gets, even a bit goofy, I lose my signal. Heck, last evening, I lost it when it barely started to drizzle out there! And for this, between the ISP, the sat link provider and extra phone line, I pay close to $90.00/month! The cable companies don't even have our locale on their maps and DSL??? Huh! I'm just happy I don't have to climb the pole to make a phone call! I don't even have a clue where the closest CO is for the Telco!

Basically, what I'm saying is, yes, I realize that for "living in the country" we have to give up certain "conveniences" and we do so, dearly. BUT, technology and Internet communication is in many ways, not only AS important, but even MORE so than to many of our city counterparts. Simply because we don't have many of the conveniences typically associated with the city folk, the Internet is rapidly becoming a mainstay for communication, research, shopping and entertainment.

I'm not familiar with all the ins and outs of BPL, though from what you're saying, it may not be a real viable alternative. BUT, I am constantly on the lookout for an alternative, nonetheless! Heck, we've got farmers out here with GPS on their tractors, but these same guys go back home at night and are lucky to hookup at 32.7kbps to check the ag market!

Sorry for the rant, but I guess right, wrong or otherwise, I can't blame anyone for, at least, looking at alternatives which enable them to communicate in a manner similar to the rest of the country. Just my $00.02... :cool:

[Ken Garlock]

John, you have every right to rant. I too live outside the city, but it is encroaching rapidly. I have IDSL which is turbo charged IDSN, 144 kb instead of 128 kb. I am also paying about $100/mo for the honor. Even when I lived in the heart of Plano, I could not get DSL because my CO was 18,000 feet away( I could drive it in 12,000, go figure.)

The real problem is with the phone companies. They will not spend the money to upgrade their existing service. :mad:

I am banking on a new bi-directional satellite system called "wildblue." Take a look at WildBlue (http://www.wildblue.com)

I have said my piece about BPL, and I am finished. :)

[John Miliunas]

Yup, I agree on the Telco's not willing to invest in the technology/equipment! I don't know what it's like where you live, but around here, there's some type of law requiring Telco's to upgrade or otherwise update their equipment to certain standards every 7 years. As I understand it, the law applies to existing Telco owners, so you can bet on making your monthly check out to a different Telco shortly before the 7-year mark! Yeah, that's how they get around it. I know for a fact that the CO's located in many (most?) of the rural areas, still contain the old (but still functioning) mechanical relays!

"WildBlue" looks very interesting. I'd really like to know the differences between it and Direcway. It doesn't look as though they're giving us any clue(s) as to how much the initial costs will be, nor is there any indication of the monthly cost(s). I also didn't see any indication of how they expect "snow-outs" or "rain-outs" to react. Mine didn't use to be too bad, but then last summer, they swapped out to "newer and improved" equipment, which included a new modem, LNB and switched me to a different bird. Every since then, if someone passing by in a car spits out the window, my signal goes goofy! :mad: (OK, not quite THAT bad, but a whole lot worse than it used to be!)

Anyhow, I might just go ahead and sign up for future notifications of the service. Can't hurt, I guess... :) Thanks for the heads up! :D :cool:

[Dan Mages]

Another option for setting up a WLAN for broadband service is Motorola's Canopy system. It is a high speed wireless system on a 5.2 or 5.4 GHz freq. It is a very nice and inexpensive solution.

Dan

[Ken Garlock]

"WildBlue" looks very interesting. I'd really like to know the differences between it and Direcway. It doesn't look as though they're giving us any clue(s) as to how much the initial costs will be, nor is there any indication of the monthly cost(s). I also didn't see any indication of how they expect "snow-outs" or "rain-outs" to react. Mine didn't use to be too bad, but then last summer, they swapped out to "newer and improved" equipment, which included a new modem, LNB and switched me to a different bird. Every since then, if someone passing by in a car spits out the window, my signal goes goofy! :mad: (OK, not quite THAT bad, but a whole lot worse than it used to be!)

Anyhow, I might just go ahead and sign up for future notifications of the service. Can't hurt, I guess... :) Thanks for the heads up! :D :cool:

John, the problem I see is that rain will be the number one enemy of this technology. It operates at 24 Ghz, about twice the frequency of Dish or DirectTV. It that frequency, you are getting close to the absorption frequency of water vapor. I read somewhere that the military or some part of the govt. as been using that frequency range for several years, so it is not entirely untested.

I signed up for a tickler from them about 2 years ago. They have missed their launch targets several times, so I wouldn't count too heavily on the estimated availability dates. At one time, they said that the service would be marketed through Dish Network in addition to independent dealers. Heck, it only costs your time to sign up for a tickler....

[Keith Outten]

Bob,

If you are considering starting your own Internet Service...DON'T! Take my advise as one who has over nine years as an ISP you cannot compete with the monopoly's who own the wires. Now that the power companies are entering the market they will do to the phone companies and cable co's what they did to the local ISP's.

The good news is that the power companies are the only ones large enough and financially capable of bringing "fiber to the house". One strand of fiber could handle all of the communications for generations to come and everyone who has electricity will have access not just the ones who are proffitable for the telco.

In spite of the minor problems we will have with certain radio frequencies the power companies will bring us a valuable network that will be worth the problems we will have to deal with as the program evolves from power line networking to fiber. Services they will eventually provide include Internet Access, Television, Telephone and Cell Phone Service.

Want some good advise...buy stock in your power company.

Oh, I should add that I worked for Virginia Power for 6 years in the Multiple Power Projects division so I have some idea how wealthy these huge companies are and what they are capable of accomplishing.

[Bob Weisner]

Keith:Thank you for the information! What I was thinking of doing was proposing to my local town board that they look into the feasibility of having the town start its own internet system. When I look at the cost of cable internet at over $50.00 per month if a person has just broadcast cable service, I keep thinking that there has got to be a better and cheaper way to provide high speed internet service to the residents of the town.

thanks,

Bob

[Steven Wilson]

You could ask the city of Chaska, Minnesota. They're in the process of putting in a large WiFi system for their residents. You may have seen the story at http://www.usatoday.com/tech/wireless/data/2004-05-26-minn-hot-city_x.htm

[Keith Outten]

Bob,

Maybe I can help you with some basic information.

In our office at HRO we have a direct connection to a nationwide backbone. Ours is a fiber connection at 1.544 mbps up and down and cost us over $1000.00 per month. Cable modems are capable of 3mbps download and about 128kbps upload. Your very first customer will exceed your total bandwidth capability so where is the profit and how can you pay for servers and personel? The last time I checked a 45mbps pipe was $17,000.00 per month with a five year contract.

Honestly in large numbers it can actually work out but the costs associated with providing access are staggering. Of course during peak periods your customers will slow down and they will complain. You will also have the headache of running mail servers and DNS, and 24 hour tech support...you get the picture. You also need to consider that an ISP is a 24/7 business and you must keep your network up 365 days and be real innovative when you need to do maintenance on your servers.

A 99.9% uptime on a network isn't good enough for some people.

I haven't had but one vacation in the last 9 years and in some respects I am looking forward to our last day in the ISP business. My partners are hoping that when the power companies put everyone out of business that we might be able to keep our little company alive as a web host. These days with overseas hosting at $10.00 per month plan "B" is an impossible dream.

Local Internet Providers have gone the way of local hardware stores. HRO is now down to only two employees and as small as we can get and remain in business. The end is near :)

[Terre Hooks]

...

The real problem is with the phone companies. They will not spend the money to upgrade their existing service. :mad: ...


Ken,

Why should the wireline companies seek to improve their oustide plant when they are losing landlines on a daily basis?

At the beginning of 2003, there were around 175 Million landlines in the US. At the beginning of 2004, there had been a loss of more than 15 million landlines in the US. There's all kinds of fees placed on landline Telcos such as a fee of about $35 per month per subscriber from NECA. If a landline Telco is offering Dial Tone and DSL for $70 a month, half of that revenue goes to NECA.

Landline Telcos are hurting nowadays thanks to the cell phone companies, but everybody seems to want to blame the landline companies for poor service.

Write your Congressman and Senator and ask them to remove the politics from the FCC.

[Ken Garlock]

Ken,

Why should the wireline companies seek to improve their oustide plant when they are losing landlines on a daily basis?

At the beginning of 2003, there were around 175 Million landlines in the US. At the beginning of 2004, there had been a loss of more than 15 million landlines in the US. There's all kinds of fees placed on landline Telcos such as a fee of about $35 per month per subscriber from NECA. If a landline Telco is offering Dial Tone and DSL for $70 a month, half of that revenue goes to NECA.

Landline Telcos are hurting nowadays thanks to the cell phone companies, but everybody seems to want to blame the landline companies for poor service.

Write your Congressman and Senator and ask them to remove the politics from the FCC.

Terre, you make some valid points. I fear that our representatives in Washington are, OH Well, let us not go there, but I think you know where I am heading. The FCC directors are appointed, so you know where the technical capabilities are in that group.

As far as line maintenance goes, the telcos have a business obligation to maintain their equipment, including landlines. While I don't have numbers, I strongly suspect that the well planned use of fiber concentrators embedded in the existing infrastructure would make a vast improvement.

In simple terms, if the telcos are loosing market share, they are not keeping up with the market place. The telcos are publicly traded companies, and the stock holders will make their needs known: dividends, and stock price growth. Don't keep up, the stock goes down, the profits take a dive, and management gets the boot. Get a couple institutional investors angry, and things start to happen at high levels. The goal of every CEO and board chairmen is, or should be, increasing value to the stockholders. You don't do that by reducing service, you do it by making your products more desirable to the customers.

Of course it is always a good idea to write your Senator and/or Representative and make your needs known.

This sounds like a good discussion for an evening at the local pub. ;)

Ken S.: if this is too political, please delete it.

[Lars Thomas]

Bob, my town (and two adjoining) has considered setting up their own broadband service. I know just enough about to know that I don't like it. It was recently voted down.

Anyway, the below link is very pro-broadband, so consider this just half of the story. But it does offer some interesting background.

http://www.geneva.il.us/bb/faq.htm

[JayStPeter]

I just bought a new house in a rural area. Verizon cannot offer me DSL. It has nothing to do with my proximity to the CO (4000 ft). They installed nice new equipment in my nice new neighborhood. It is incompatible with the CO equipment. So, no DSL for me. People in older houses across the street can get it.
In October, they told me 2 months until the CO would be upgraded. According to a friend, they've been claiming 2 months for 2 years now. The calling plans offered also leave something to be desired. So, I have real basic landline service and do most of my calling/long distance with the cell phone.
In my case, the landline carriers could be pulling in $80/mo instead of $30. But, they took themselves out of competition due to their own incompetence.
I'm "fortunate" to have a cable company that offers cable modem service. But, they force me to buy their TV service also, which is terrible. I'd much rather have DSL/Satellite TV. I say, bring on the power company (you'd laugh at that statement if you knew my power company).

Jay