Last question on DC (maybe)

[Mike Schueler]

Hopefully this isn't too stupid of a question for everyone.

I have decided on one of the grizzly cyclone models, and I am trying to decide how much pipe to get, and what attachments. Having never even seen a dust collector set up in real life, this is tough to do over the internet. There is a woodcraft store about 2 hrs away, which I looked at, but it has very few accessories for dust collection and only 3-4 dust collectors to look at.

The cyclone has a 7 inch intake, but I can't really find 7" pipe, and plan to get a mess of 6" pipe instead. Grizzly sells these in 5 foot sections, and I plan to get about 5 or 6 of these. They also sell these things:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-Industrial-Dust-Collection-Adj-Nipple/G7365

Which I am assuming are used to attach segments of pipe end to end. Is this pretty much how the pipe is attached? Or do they telescope into each other a bit, then get secured with a band/tie, and the nipple thingies are for special connections only? In other words, do I need one of these nipple things for every end-end pipe connection I make?

Any other pointers or advice will be greatly appreciated, especially alternate ways to get the pipe etc I might need.

I don't look forward to the inevitable "oops I forgot X and need 3 more Y" and have to order more.

[John Keeton]

Mike, there are several "start to finish" DC threads on the creek with many good ideas. This was the thread on my install. Maybe it will be of some help.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=79131&page=4

[Bill Arnold]

As John said, there is a ton of information on this and other woodworking forums regarding dust collection.

Quite honestly, I don't know that anyone can give you any guidance based on what you've said so far. To lay out a DC system, you have to have a plan first, then determine what you need at both ends and all along the path.

A lot of people have a single run across the shop with branches to machines. In my case, I wanted a perimeter system running at the wall/ceiling junction. My DC has an 8" intake with the first piece of duct being an 8-7-7 wye and 7" duct to the first drops, followed by 6" duct to additional drops. I've done the duct installation in three phases, ordering what I needed for each phase after completing the previous phase.

Do a little research on the forum and see what you can find.

[Jason Hanko]

Mike,
NO. You dont need these "nipple things" to attach between every section of that pipe. For that you need these:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-Industrial-Dust-Collection-Pipe-Clamp/G7361
(http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-Industrial-Dust-Collection-Pipe-Clamp/G7361)The lengths dont telescope into one another, they just butt up and the band clamp above locks over the flared ends to hold them together - same system we had in the milking parlor out in the barn :)
(bear in mind that with this system you cant cut any of the lengths of pipe since you'd cut off the flared end, making it impossible to connect on that end with their clamp thingies.)

The nipple thing you posted is used more as an extender. Chances are your run length isnt going to be an exact multiple of the 5' sections that the pipe is sold in, so the nipple thing is made to be adjustable in length to make up the last little bit you might need to go.

[Angus Hines]

Here's a picture of my duct work hope it helps you out :)

[Robert Payne]

Mike,

I'm a proponent of 6" Sewer & Drain (ASTM D2729) PVC pipe that is loads cheaper than the 5' lengths of pipe you are contemplating. I'd buy a 7" > 6" reducer and run nothing but 6" PVC. Corresponding fittings (elbows up to 45º, 6x6x6 and 6x6x4 wyes and couplings) are available at many Lowe's stores and you should be able to find the pipe in 10' bell-end lengths at major plumbing or landscape or irrigation suppliers. Make drops with 6x6x6 wyes and take them to vertical with a 45º elbow. Install blast gates close to your machines and use flexible PVC duct (got mine at McMaster-Carr) to connect to 6" port on machine (made my own ports from plywood and 1/2 of a PVC coupling). My .02

[Mike Schueler]

Thanks a lot for the above posts, it's really what I was looking for.

Angus, that's what I think mine will look most like. Do you use flexible hose from the ends that I see open there?

Also, if I use metal ducting, do I need to have the metal blast gates or can I use the much cheaper plastic?

Robert, thanks for the PVC tip, and I will look into it. Yes I know about grounding it :)

Mike

[Mike Schueler]

Thanks a lot for the above posts, it's really what I was looking for.

Angus, that's what I think mine will look most like. Do you use flexible hose from the ends that I see open there? Also, if I use metal ducting, do I need to have the metal blast gates or can I use the much cheaper plastic?

Robert, thanks for the PVC tip, and I will look into it. Yes I know about grounding it :)

Mike

[John Keeton]

Mike, I would recommend using the self-clearing metal blastgates. Rob Grubbs has 5 of the Lee Valley 4" gates for sale in the classifieds. That is what I used, along with some 6". They are well made.

I know that a lot of creekers used pvc and I think it works out great. If you looked at my system, you know that I used hvac snaplock pipe. It is considerably lighter to work with and that is important unless you have some help. But, the biggest factor for me was cost. Straight joints of pvc were not so bad, but when I looked at the elbow cost, and the cost of the other fittings, the overall difference was substantial. In addition, it is much easier to accomplish odd angles with the hvac.

That said, I think pvc makes a nice system, and I would think it is probably quieter, although I don't know that for fact. If, after checking the pricing, you can do pvc it certainly will do fine.

I purchased my flex and some of my fittings at Peachtree. Prices are much cheaper, good service, and the heavy duty flex is good stuff.

[Angus Hines]

Mike, Here's a picture of mine finished With the hoses attached. Also Like john the PVC option is much more expensive. I had to use a little bit of PVC for another exaust project and quickly learned how expensive it is a 90 degree elbow will cost you about twice what a 10' straight section costs and 4" PVC Ball Valves will run you $100 each which is $ 90 more than a metal blast gate. Metal is much safer in a shop environment also According to an article I read somewhere while trying to decided this myself. IF I find the article again I'll post it here.

[Mike Schueler]

Thanks for the pictures.

I am amazed at how much this ductwork will cost me. I think I nearly have everything for the tablesaw, planer, and jointer, without much expansion, and the piping alone is over $1500. Maybe I am doing something wrong; who knows. I have a space of about 15 feet by 20 feet, and will maybe need to move everything closer together, eh? The hoods at grizzly all have 4 inch openings; my ridgid tablesaw, which I really like, has a 2.5 inch collector from the factory that I am of course going to replace with something realistic. I am surprised that the dust collection stuff will cost me as much as all the big tools I have.

Thanks for listening.

[Ray Schafer]

Mike,
I just bought my DC unit, and I am putting together my plan, too. I haven't priced it yet, but I am planning to use the S&D that Robert suggested. I saw a plan for making a $1 blast gate that I am going to try. The main thing that I am going to do is to move my DC tools (TS, planer, jointer, bandsaw) close together -- on one wall or maybe around one corner. That way I can have one main run and short branches. I am going to move the tools which will use my shop vac (and Phil Thien separator) to the other wall so that I can easily move the hose between them as needed.

Just sharing my ideas and hoping that it costs me a lot less that $1500! because I can't afford that.

[John Keeton]

Mike, I don't recall exact $$, but I think all of my ductwork, including tape, blastgates, fittings, etc. was under $500. My shop is 24x24, and my longest run is about 28'. If you haven't purchased yet, I would encourage you to consider 26 ga. hvac. You can use 30 ga. fittings, but make sure the straight run is 26 ga. or it may very well collapse - trust me on that one!!

[Mike Schueler]

Mike, I don't recall exact $$, but I think all of my ductwork, including tape, blastgates, fittings, etc. was under $500. My shop is 24x24, and my longest run is about 28'. If you haven't purchased yet, I would encourage you to consider 26 ga. hvac.


Where would I find 26 gauge HVAC?

[Ray Schafer]

At the orange BORG near my house, they have 8 foot sections of 26 ga. I am sure that you could find an HVAC supplier in your area who supplies the HVAC contractors. You could even call some AC contractors and ask them where to get it.

[Bill Arnold]

... I am amazed at how much this ductwork will cost me. ...
Yep. It's always tough when reality sets in. Been there, still doing it! :rolleyes:

I struck a bit of a balance between purchasing 26ga wyes, 7" and 6" pipe and elbows from Oneida, then buying less expensive 5" and 4" 30ga pipe and elbows from the borg or a local HVAC distributor. I've had no problem using the lighter gauge for the smaller diameters.

Blast gates are self-clearing from Lee Valley. I though about building my own, but didn't want to take the time to do so. Besides, I figured I could only save about half the cost building myself.

Overall, I've spent a bit more than the cost of the cyclone for all of the ductwork. I had calculated that would be the case before I started the project.

;)

[John Keeton]

Mike, I purchased my hvac snaplock in 5' sections at our local plumbing/electrical/hvac contractor supply store. I think the straight sections were about $1.50/ft. Also got most of my fittings there, but a couple from the blue BORG on the weekend when I needed them to finish up. The elbows were less than $3 each, and the Y's were about $6 each. I even had them order some in the size I needed from their distributor and had them in within 3-4 days.

[Sonny Edmonds]

I've run the gambit from a 1 HP slam-dunk harbor freight, to what I have now with a cyclone and booster blower system.
4" S&D where needed, 6" S&D where I can.
I bought 30' of 6" pipe (All the plumbing supply had on hand), and ordered my fittings from McMaster-Carr.
I could have used about 10 more feet (1 section) in my overheads, but it worked out fine for my garage shop (20' x 20').
Where I needed specialized angles, I found some black stove pipe adjustable elbows and a few sections of the mating stove pipe did the tricks.
All my verticles, except the one from the booster blower, are 4" so the velocity of the air is fast to convey the particles up to the 6" mains where it flys along to the maw of the cyclone.
S&D is far quieter in use than metal will ever be. And vastly easier to assymble, or reconfigure if desired.
Also, so many are afraid of the static electricity it can build. And it sure can! But, it will develop a skin of dust inside it, and to some extent on the outside of it, and it will nullify the static in use in a few weeks.
S&D is PVC in compound. PVC is an insulator. You CAN NOT ground an insulator. Don't waste your time trying. Just let the system equalize on it's own.
You are welcome to glean ideas from my shop pages HERE (http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/images/shop_shots/dust_collection_ideas.htm)for use in your own shop. Click on the pictures to make them big. ;)

[Mike Schueler]

Tried the local hardware store (ACE) that has a better than average stock of stuff, since it's far away from any large cities. The largest they had was 4" PVC, and the largest I can find online from Lowes or HD is 4" also. The local guy had no idea where I could get some anywhere else. He's usually a pretty good resource, too. I appreciate all the advice I have received, and will lower the boom soon.

I will keep looking, as I am coming to realize I may need all the cash I can keep since the electrical in my house is getting some gremlins, and I think an electrician is gonna make some money off me soon. And woodworking is enough for me, I don't want to try electrical.

[Mike Schueler]

Check out the McMaster-Carr site and I have this question:

Are the thin walled green pipes they have listed workable?


http://www.mcmaster.com/#

Hard to navigate, you need to got to catalog view then it's at the bottom of page 66

Hopefully the link works. They are a LOT cheaper than the metal pipes I have almost ordered from grizzly. They say they are thin-walled, so I want to be sure they can handle the suction without buckling. I think I can more easily afford it even with the wyes and everything I would need.

[Sonny Edmonds]

That is S&D pipe.
# 2426K95 (Enter that in the product finder)
Note that they say the color may vary. Mine is white on the outside, black on the inside. Works with the fittings up the page on Page 66.
The longer sweeps are better for flow characteristics.
Mine is firmly poked together and taped with 3 wraps of pipe wrap tape. If necessary, small piercing screws can be used to secure the joints.
But don't glue them. You can't ever revamp the pieces if you glue them. :cool:
I'm in the Northern Los Angeles county and I had a dickens of a time finding 6" S&D in stock anywhere. But some of the plumbing supply outfits have it, or can get it in a day or two.
I know it gets tough when you are away from big supply houses.

[Bill Arnold]

Before you install a PVC duct system, do some research. There is plenty of information available about the danger of static charge. There is plenty of information about what people have done to eliminate it.

Yes, PVC is an insulator as has been stated here. You cannot ground an insulator. BUT, you can install a "drain wire" along the duct run and tie it to the grounded case of your DC. The drain wire will collect any charges that build up and take them to ground.

After reading the information available online, I opted for steel pipe for safety.
:)

[John Keeton]

I agree with Sonny about the ease of changing the layout with pvc, but I can and have done the same with the hvac. The metal is taped with foil tape as the only adhesive holding it together. I siliconed the various elbow joints in the bend, but the ends are simply taped together. Whenever I want to make a change, I just run a safety knife around the joint. It is that simple.

Metal is lighter, cheaper, easy to handle, and does a great job. I'm not knocking the pvc as I think it makes a nice system. It, no doubt, is slicker on the inside and you don't have to fool with the tabs on Y's. But for cost and weight alone, it was an easy call for me. Bill factored in the safety idea, and I never got really sold on the danger of pvc, but it is something that many have considered in their choice.

Another thing, the snaplock "nests" in itself. I can carry in one armload the straight pipe used in my entire system. That means it took up one corner as I was doing my system.

Just another metal advocate!! No offense Sonny - and all the other pvc advocates. You aren't wrong, just a different take.