Compound Miter vs Radial Arm

[dirk martin]

I've got a 10" compound sliding miter saw, and all I've ever done with it, for the year I've had it, is cross cuts. Once in a while it'll pinch, and jump like crazy.
I just don't care for the thing.

Been seeing some radial arm saws at local auctions, and local papers.

If all I do is xcuts, do I want a radial arm, or a sliding miter?
Is the radial arm safer?

[Dave Lehnert]

In my opinion a radial arm saw is old school and not as safe. Hard to keep square. Sliding miter saws are the only way to go.
When using a miter saw, are you pushing the blade through the cut as you should or are you pulling the blade through the cut? (like you would on a radial arm saw)

[Dewey Torres]

Oh boy here we go... I'll be watching this debate unfold like a California wildfire.

No comment here

[dirk martin]

I'm pushing it thru.
It's a Hitachi C8FB.

If I lock the head down, should it then be pulled thru, as in a Radial arm?

The saw just seems a bit whimpy when xcutting my 1" and 1.5" elm and black ash, and hard maple.

[Randal Stevenson]

I'm pushing it thru.
It's a Hitachi C8FB.

If I lock the head down, should it then be pulled thru, as in a Radial arm?

The saw just seems a bit whimpy when xcutting my 1" and 1.5" elm and black ash, and hard maple.

There are good radial arm saws, and there are cheap ones. Same way with Sliding miter saws but they operate the opposite. You pull a radial arm saw and push a sliding miter saw. Here are some links of each:
Son of Mr. Sawdust, with a restored, aligned DeWalt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUnZpUDvzgs
Sliding miter saw safety video, via the woodwhisper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gop9XdIAZEE

And if all your doing is crosscuts, a sawboard or something like the Eurekazone is another option. (you don't need all the parts he shows, just giving an idea)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYWL4-dTNyc

[Ed Gibbons]

I use both a compound miter saw and a radial arm saw. Just the way I have my shop set up, the radial arm saw is great for cross cuts, especially foy long and wide boards. I do have to check to make sure cut is square but that really has not been a problem.

The miter saw is great for angle cuts....easier to set up than the radial arm. I also use it for cross cuts for smaller pieces and it works great. Very easy to keep square.

I find both very safe and glad I have the option of each. If I had to choose on one, I would get a 12 inch sliding compound miter saw...but again, I have never used one of those.

[Joe Scharle]

I'm pushing it thru.
It's a Hitachi C8FB.

If I lock the head down, should it then be pulled thru, as in a Radial arm?

The saw just seems a bit wimpy when xcutting my 1" and 1.5" elm and black ash, and hard maple.

With all cutters....feed the work into the cutter (or the cutter into the work). You wouldn't feed work from the rear of your tablesaw and feeding work away from a router bit, called climb cutting, is only possible because the bits are relatively small.

[Jason White]

I recently bought an older DeWalt RAS and learned the hard way that you can't make decent left-hand miters with it. You can swing the yoke all the way left to 45-degrees, but you don't get the same width of cut that you do on the right. Just the way a RAS is built (because of where the motor is placed). I assume it's the same situation for all RAS saws. Now I see why they more or less fell out of favor for doing a lot of angled miter cuts.

I never felt like I was in "danger" when using the RAS like some others here have expressed in the past. Just keep your hands away from the blade. Duh!

The RAS is sitting in my shop collecting dust. I plan to use it as a dedicated dado-maker some day.

Looking back, I should have spent the money on a high-end 10" or 12" sliding compound miter saw. The only problem with them is they don't take a dado stack. The RAS will.

Jason



I've got a 10" compound sliding miter saw, and all I've ever done with it, for the year I've had it, is cross cuts. Once in a while it'll pinch, and jump like crazy.
I just don't care for the thing.

Been seeing some radial arm saws at local auctions, and local papers.

If all I do is xcuts, do I want a radial arm, or a sliding miter?
Is the radial arm safer?

[Dave Falkenstein]

I'm pushing it thru.
It's a Hitachi C8FB.

If I lock the head down, should it then be pulled thru, as in a Radial arm?

The saw just seems a bit whimpy when xcutting my 1" and 1.5" elm and black ash, and hard maple.

It is best to push the blade through the material on a SCMS. If you lock the head, then use it like a CMS.

Your saw is 8-1/2" (not 10") and 9.5 amp. I used one of those saws for years and thought it was a great saw. Do you have a quality blade that is sharp? I found the Hitachi blades less satisfactory than a better blade, like a Forrest Chopmaster. A dull blade, or the wrong type of blade might make the saw seem wimpy.

In my experience a SCMS is a better choice than a RAS. However, with either type of saw, using a blade designed for that type of saw is important.

[Peter Quinn]

Dick, your question is like asking "Do I need a short bed pick up truck, or a tri axle dump truck?" Both have their strengths and associated costs of ownership, one is much more complicated to maintain and significantly larger and thus harder to park, but it can also handle bigger work loads. You need more training to operate a dump truck than a pickup, and likewise a RAS really requires more knowledge to set up and operate than a SCMS, though there are no laws beyond common sense governing their use.

Without getting into the discussion of good RAS versus bad RAS, I will suggest that a good RAS is a powerful tool for cross cutting thick hardwood, and does well on things that are rough or otherwise not flat where a SCMS will almost definitely come back at you. It takes some work to get a good RAS tuned to cross cut accurately, but once done it can out work ANY SCMS in this test, and often the cross cut will be 15"-24" versus maybe 12" on a slider. I'd be willing to challenge ANY SCMS user to a cross cut competition. I'll get a pile of twisted 10/4 hickory, you bring your slider (or several as you will probably kill the first one), I'll bring my RAS (which will require that dump truck mentioned above:D) and we'll each cross cut (10) 12' pieces into 12" lengths. While you repair your saw, I will stack my finished cuts and make lunch for us both!:rolleyes: If the test was to miter glass stops for a 12 lite door, the SCMS user would finish first for sure.

A SCMS is primarily made to cut flat thin millwork (under 1 1/4"). And you need proper support on both sides of the cut for longer material. If you find yourself cutting lots of rough or wide hardwood over 5/4" another tool may be in order. f your material has any crown, cut it with the crown down, or bow up so it falls away from the blade, not into it. A decent skill saw will do the trick on rough stock, a good RAS will too if you have the space. And on the SCMS, different blades will behave differently depending on the material in use. I have a general purpose blade that can handle framing lumber, and a great Freud miter saw blade for finish trim that leaves a glass smooth cut on miters but kicks back in my face on green framing material.

Aside from blade type, feed rate on the SCMS is another factor you must control. I see many people push too fast, too rammy. Slow down on the feed a bit and see if that helps.

[Sonny Edmonds]

Well, real estate has a lot to do with one verses the tother.
Otherwise, if all you want is to 90 cross-cut, an RAS has a lot of range.
A SCMS has a lot of accuracy and angle ability.
I don't have a lot of real estate. I have a Hitachi SCMS that is an older model. C10FS. What it won't cross-cut, I do on my table saw.

From your posts, I highly suspect what we have here is a bit of operator error and misunderstanding.
You need to get a few long boards and sit down with your saw and get familure with it. Slow deliberate motions with a strong wrist to make smooth deliberate cuts. Pay attention to not tweaking the saw head left, right, or twisting it. Let the blade work it's way through the material. :rolleyes:

You go jumping into an RAS and screw up feeding that, the blade and head is going to run out at you. :eek:

Slow down, read your manual, take your time, and practice.
Then decide. :)

[Matt Ocel]

RAS = Boat Anchor.

IMHO:D

[Tony Joyce]

I agree with Peter, I have both and both have proved to be very useful to me. Each does certain jobs better than the other.

Tony Joyce

[Terry Beadle]

I have a Sears RAS that I purchased back in the early 80's and have a Woodworker II mounted. I use it exclusively in the cross cut mode and no miter cutting. For miter cutting I would use a fence that can be adjusted to different angles, but even that is no longer used. The fence is based upon one presented by Curtis Erpelding in his Radial Arm Saw Jointery video. I bought this video years ago and it's really worth the investment. I see on Amazon there's some used ones going for $5. If you have a RAS, I recommend you get this video and see it for your self. He demonstrates dovetails, miters and some jigs that let you dial in precisely cuts in the horizontal plane for mortice and tennon.

I currently use a Kregg fence on the Grizzley 1023 as it can dial in a miter to a knat's eyebrow.

So in short, I set my old Sears RAS to do very accurate cross cuts and it's really worth keeping versus a Craigs List sale. The RAS does all the cross cutting I need to rough in a part and then it's on to the shooting board.

If you don't have a RAS, don't buy one. Buy a high quality miter fence for your table saw ( IMHO ).

Happy Holidays!

[Mitchell Andrus]

I'm makin' popcorn and bookmarking this thread.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Well, real estate has a lot to do with one verses the tother.
Otherwise, if all you want is to 90 cross-cut, an RAS has a lot of range.
A SCMS has a lot of accuracy and angle ability.
I don't have a lot of real estate. I have a Hitachi SCMS that is an older model. C10FS. What it won't cross-cut, I do on my table saw.

From your posts, I highly suspect what we have here is a bit of operator error and misunderstanding.
You need to get a few long boards and sit down with your saw and get familure with it. Slow deliberate motions with a strong wrist to make smooth deliberate cuts. Pay attention to not tweaking the saw head left, right, or twisting it. Let the blade work it's way through the material. :rolleyes:

You go jumping into an RAS and screw up feeding that, the blade and head is going to run out at you. :eek:

Slow down, read your manual, take your time, and practice.
Then decide. :)

Try another edit - familiar. LOL, it's 'tween the holidays... you're allowed 2 more til 2009.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Nah, not boat anchors. I have an old Walker Turner monster that I scored for $25 at an estate auction. Still feel a little guilty there. It needs restored, but when I get it up and going, it will fit in nicely in the wood storage shed. Figured it will work well for sizing longer boards before they get in my rather "cozy" shop.

IMHO, a SCMS beats the RAS on most everything now, except crosscut capacity (if you have a big RAS), and the ability to dado. A good sliding tablesaw is better and has far bigger capacity, but a RAS and SCMS will cover your bases for most things.

[Dave Cav]

[quote=dirk martin;977616]I've got a 10" compound sliding miter saw, and all I've ever done with it, for the year I've had it, is cross cuts. Once in a while it'll pinch, and jump like crazy.
I just don't care for the thing.

I use a newer 10" Delta RAS at home. I use a Hitachi SCMS at school. I personally perfer the RAS, and would love to get an old 12" DeWalt and restore it. However, the SCMS is probably somewhat safer for the students to use.

We used to have a lot of problems with kickbacks on the SCMS at school. It was usually caused by trying to crosscut a concave board with the concave side against the fence. As the blade cut through the back side the board halves would try to snap against the fence and it would pinch the blade. A couple of things have nearly eliminated this problem. First, I don't let them crosscut very long boards without my assistance, and we always check to make sure the convex side is against the fence. I also strongly encourage them to crosscut long rough lumber into five foot lengths with a hand saw and then joint one edge, and put the jointed edge against the fence. This alone seems to prevent 99% of pinching and kickbacks. Finally I added a longer wooden fence to the metal fence, which has improved the support and reduced kickbacks as well.

Dave C

[Craig Richmond]

I just bought a used Sears RAS (in excellent condition) about two months ago and have not used it yet because the shop is not ready. Why is the RAS so dangerous? Mine has a cable that is controlled by the trigger so the saw will not take off toward you when doing cross cuts. Is there something else I should worry about? Should I sell it and my Dewalt chop saw and buy a Dewalt chop/sliding saw?

[Dave Cav]

The biggest safety problem (from a design standpoint) is the tendency for the saw to "self feed" if you use a blade with a too aggressive hook angle. However, if you use a crosscut blade designed for SCMS or RAS use with a low or zero hook angle it won't be as much of a problem. Also, with a little experience you will automatically compensate for the self feeding tendency when cutting. The other safety issue is ripping. I personally feel that ripping on a RAS is insanely dangerous. I tried it a few times with my old Wards saw and got some horrific kickbacks. The tendency of the saw blade to lift the work, plus the self feeding aspect makes ripping just too dangerous on a radial arm saw as far as I'm concerned. The final safety "problem" is operator inattention. Given the way the saw works, you really need to make sure you know where your fingers and thumbs are before starting a cut, and make sure the blade is fully retracted before moving any stock in front of the blade.

Dave C

[Brian Jarnell]

I would say that you should have a good quality SMS,much more appropriate for a small shop,as in your case.

[Matt Ocel]

RAS
There is nothing wrong with a RAS, but its time has come and gone.

In a typical shop space is an issue and a RAS takes up a lot of space, and there are so many other tools in your shop that already does what a RAS does.

Why double dip?

[Peter Quinn]

14" 17A 1949 DeWalt RAS=NOT BOAT ANCHOR, though when attempting to cut a pile of 8/4 rough stock to rough length for a big project, SCMS=DINGY. Not the right tool for the job. I've meet no one who has used a good well tuned RAS and written them off.

Have you checked out the price of a good new RAS? Original saw, Delta, Northfield, Griggio for example? These are industrial machines whose price will make you wince. I can't afford one for sure. I'd rather have a euro panel saw than a traditional TS and RAS if I had to buy both new. Not sure your average shop needs anything like that (I don't NEED my RAS but it was free and has become my mascot through sweat equity). The consumer models available have long been boat anchors. I'm quite sure that with a couple of sawhorses and a good side winder I could do the same cross cutting albeit a bit slower. In a pinch at work me and another guy roughed out all the parts for 45 passage doors with a skill saw. If you can find a good used older saw and have the time to fix it and a place to put it it can be a pleasure to own.

If your RAS is climbing, you have the wrong blade, the wrong set up, or the wrong saw. There are 13 steps to setting up your average RAS, each must be done in order, often the whole setup must be done several times. No heel, no camber, negative rake angle, proper adjustment of the bearings in the ways, no climbing. With a SCMS, the most difficult part of the setup is opening the box, which is a good thing.

Sorry to keep beating this point but I feel compelled to defend my mascot to the end.

[Chip Lindley]

I beg to differ Matt, my 12" and 18" Rockwells will Go when I am dead and gone!

As originally noted as problematic by Dirk, he has trouble crosscutting 4/4 and 6/4 elm and black ash and maple. A hefty RAS would serve him much better in that respect.

Pulling the blade TOWARD one on either RAS or SMCS is called "Climb Cutting!" Beware! There are negative-hook blades for this method. Even so, the cut must be controlled. Proceed at your own risk!

I use my RAS's for all crosscuts, and special setups for miters or compound angles on large stock. The turret head of the Rockwell/Deltas eases miter problems of the long arm DeWalts and others.

Sliding-miters have portability and are much better suited for chopping moulding on-site! I find all sliding-miters a bit flimsy, and would have to pray ernestly before chopping compound miters in expensive crown moulding. I still use an old cast iron 10" chop saw (no slider), that DOES cut exact angles once set, without bobbling the cut!

As for unsafe RAS's, any tool is only as safe as the operator. Some humans are not as cognisant or mechanically inclined as others! Familiarity with a machine and its capabilities (and liabilities) make it friend or foe!

[Matt Ocel]

To all you RAS guys,

I humblely say IMHO.

[dirk martin]

I guess I don't understand why I should push the blade thru the wood on a sliding miter, but pull a radial arm saw thru the wood.

If I lock the head down, on my sliding miter, it sure seems a lot like a radial arm saw, to me....in terms of the head simply sliding, and the blade spinning in the same direction.

[Randal Stevenson]

I guess I don't understand why I should push the blade thru the wood on a sliding miter, but pull a radial arm saw thru the wood.

If I lock the head down, on my sliding miter, it sure seems a lot like a radial arm saw, to me....in terms of the head simply sliding, and the blade spinning in the same direction.

At least on the old DeWalts, it had adjustments for your pulling tension (resistance to climbcutting). I don't think (don't know all of them), that sliding miter saws do.

[Rick Potter]

I decline to get into this one again, but I will make one comment.....My RAS will crosscut 16 1/4".

Rick Potter

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I've got some popcorn, some green tea and I'm warming up the trigger finger on my mouse hand.....:eek::D

I have a SCMS....and I'd also like to have a RAS just for doing dados.

Like all tools...they all have inherent risks.

[John Bailey]

I've always had a radial arm saw. For over 20 yrs. I used a Craftsman that did yeoman's service, although it was hard to keep tuned and did occasionally creep on me, but, only when I didn't have it set-up properly.

Then, I got a 1956 DeWalt MBF 9". Even though it had a third the hp, it never slowed down. After the first set-up, I never touched it. It never creeped on me. It was a dream to use. The only reason I don't have it anymore is I bought a 1959 GWI 10" model.

I don't know about comparing a radial arm saw and a SCMS. They seem to both have their place. For me, the radial arm saw replaces the table saw.

John