Newbie recommendations for: jointer and finishes

[dan lemkin]

I am dumping my crummy benchtop jointer and getting a real one. I have a small garage, and wanted something relatively small that I can wheel into a corner to make room for a car in bad weather.

I was looking at the G0452Z 6" X 46" Jointer w/ Spiral Cutterhead (http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-X-46-Jointer-w-Spiral-Cutterhead/G0452Z)

Any thoughts in this price range... if most of the boards I am jointing are 6ft or less, is this table adequate for edges to be used for glue-ups

The stock I am getting is roughcut cherry, maple, zebrawood... Some are bowed... Is it more efficient to plane them flat, or use the jointer? If it saves more wood, this would be the only reason I would consider getting an 8" jointer, and forego the spiral cutterhead. My attraction to the spiral is that when I have tried to face plane on a jointer, I have gotten a lot of chatter from conventional blades.

QUESTION 2
For finishes... I will be building a few projects - table and bench, with cherry, pommele sappele (sp?) and maple. I have spent a lot of time reading about different finishes and am going in circles... From what I have read...

I like the ease of use of the gel poly's
I like the appearance and lack of built up film of tung oil
I like the repairability of shellac and oil
I like the water repellency of poly's
I don't have anything that resembles a clean room, so dust is an issue.

Of everything I have seen, I was considering the two step Sam Maloof
oil/poly
oil/wax

QUESTION 3
Might as well get this question out there... garage is damp, and have been reading lots of posts about rust prevention. I see the boeshield appears to be a favorite rust preventor... but is tacky, and requires waxing or other slip coat to prevent wood drag...

The topsaver website notes that their product is much better at rust protection than wax and is a single use product. However whenever i have seen it referenced on the forums, it is as a restoring product and not as a rust preventitive.

Does anyone use it to protect from rust in humid environments as a single agent?

Any thoughts or recommendations would be appreciated

-dan

[glenn bradley]

I think folks are reluctant to get into the "get an 8 inch, at least" discussion one more time. Do a search here on 8" jointer and you should find bunches of discussion. The number of folks who quickly upgrade to 8" machines after "saving money" by getting a 6" do make slightly used 6" machines readily available, but I digress . . .


Is it more efficient to plane them flat, or use the jointer?

You can't plane a board flat. You can plane sides parallel but, if your reference side is bowed, your planer will give you an even thicknessed, bowed board. The work around is a planer sled (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=58735)which got me by long enough to save for an 8" jointer.

[Ray Schafer]

I bought a used Ridgid jointer from Craigslist. I am very happy with it. ... but don't fall for that "Lifetime Guarantee" thing. It is not exactly what you and I mean by "lifetime."

[Jim Kountz]

Ive only had my spiral jointer for a week or two now but I can tell you its really nice. I get the smoothest finish on some of the wildest grain with ease and accuracy. Having used a 3 knife cutterhead jointer for the last 18 years, the upgrade to this one was fantastic. I only wish I had done it a long time ago!

[Robert Chapman]

You're on the right track with the spiral head jointer - go with an 8 incher if you can.

Here is a finish that I use a lot. Equal parts of tung oil, paint thinner and polyurethane[sp]. I wipe it on with a rag. Three or four coats gives a very durable finish and can be done in two days.

[Jim Becker]

The specific purpose of a jointer is to flatten the face of a board and make an edge both straight and perpendicular to that flattened face. Outside of some creative use of a special shop-made sled, you cannot use a thickness planer to "flatten" a board, per se. For this reason, if your budget can support it, try to go for a wider jointer. Pick width before you even consider the spiral head. Outside of cutting down noise, the spiral head only adds some advantages in tear-our reduction for problem woods in the case of a jointer and since you'll process both sides in the thickness planer afterward (to insure even moisture distribution), the smoothness benefit of the spiral is lost unless your thickness planer also has a spiral head.

I'll suggest you start a separate thread in the Project Finishing Forum here at SMC to discuss that topic. It will get lost here in the same thread as your jointer question.

BTW, Welcome to SMC!

[Jim Kountz]

Outside of cutting down noise, the spiral head only adds some advantages in tear-our reduction for problem woods in the case of a jointer


This is true Jim but there are a number of other benefits to the spiral head I think.
I think the fact you never have to sharpen knives again and the elimination of very tedious work setting knives is worth mentioning too. It can take quite a while to get the knives of a traditional jointer head true and in perfect alignment. The spiral or shelix cutterheads removes this frustration from the equation. I totally agree with your point of losing any smoothness benefit once you run it through a planer without the spiral head.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, I get those same benefits from the Tersa knives on my J/P combo...it's not limited to just the spiral/shelix world. I guess I'd modify my response slightly in that light, however, that those are indeed valuable benefits. They may be more valuable on the thickness planer, however, as I suspect that dealing with knives there is a little harder than on a jointer where you have the jointer's outfeed table to reference for knife adjustment. No matter...it's really nice to have choices! LOL

[Andy Casiello]

I have the G0452 jointer with standard blades. It's a great little jointer. It's 6". I need an 8" jointer. I didn't listen to these guys when I bought it, and it was "all I could afford". Well, since then I've spent about $ 4,500 on assorted tools (table saw, bandsaw, planer), wood, glue, fasteners, CL purchases, lumber, dust collectors, drill bits, router bits, saw blades, clamps of every kind, jigs, finishes, etc. My lumber rack is full of 7" and 8" wide lumber ready for surfacing.

And I still have a 6" jointer...

Get the 8" jointer with standard blades if you can't afford more than the price of that unit. Maybe you can get a shelix head for it later on..

[dan lemkin]

I have been convinced... Space be damned - I will get the 8" ;-)

I looked over the grizzly 8" jointers and was going to shell out for the spiral cutterhead because I had trouble setting knives on my little benchtop model... but the "smaller frame" grizzly jointer doesn't have a mobile base. So, I was going to get the G0656 8" x 72" Jointer with Mobile Base and add a spiral cutterhead.

Both the Byrd and Griz brands are on sale. Does anyone have any comments on build quality, cut quality, ease of installation?

Any other recommendations?

Thanks again for all the help.
-dan

[Robert Chapman]

Look at the Jet model JJ-8HH. it has the spiral cutterhead and is not as long as other 8" jointers at 66.5". I have a small shop and bought it because it is shorter. I rarely use boards over 5' long. I really like the machine.

[Neal Clayton]

i recently bought the smaller frame one from grizzly to upgrade my old 6", no problems, the head and fence come completely assembled in their own crate, you just set the base, wire up the motor and switch, and bolt it all together.

mine took an hour or two, most of which was running a new 220 line.

[Don Bullock]

I have been convinced... Space be damned - I will get the 8" ;-)

...
-dan

Dan, in my opinion you'll be glad you made that decision. I'm able to move my G0490 "out of the way" in my small, 1/2 of a two car garage, shop space. Unlike some tools I find the jointer easy to move out when I need to use it.

[Chris Brault]

I have a Jet 6" with a 56" bed and am real happy. I don't have 220, so couldn't go with an 8". I've made do and am real happy with the performance of that machine. Excellent power for 110.

[dan lemkin]

I see that the g0593 is on sale tomorrow for $895. I will get that with the shop fox base.

I see there are two inserts for sale at the grizzly site... 10/ ~$24 AND 10/~$59

I could not find information about which machines the inserts are compatible?

Does anyone have experience getting these replacement inserts? Will the cheaper ones work with the G0593?

thanks.

[Rick Fisher]

They are likely two different inserts.. Post a link.

There should be one type of insert specific to that machine.

[Steve Schoene]

Eeveryone focused on the jointer issue. I agree with the wider is better school--mine is 16".

But, about the finish choices.
Gel Poly: I've never been really happy with this. It is easy, but never seems to be very protective--mostly because you can't spread it evenly without spreading it extremely thinnly.

Tung Oil: Highly overrated as a finish, though a good ingredient in the manufacture of varnishes. Used by itself as a finish it is very slow to use since it much dry several days between coats, and then lightly sanded before the next. It takes 5 coats at least to achieve an even satin sheen. And, if you don't hold your mouth the right way, particularly if you are in any rush, it can develop a whitish frosted look that can only be fixed by stripping. And, at the end of the day it is only slightly more moisture resistant than the zero resistance of Boiled Linseed Oil BLO.
If you like the look, it can be achieve, almost identically, with 2-3 coats of an oil/varnish mix, what would be substantially more resistant to water spotting and just as easy to repair.

Shellac is an excellent film finish. Perhaps not for hard use items like kitchen tables, but excellent for traditional furniture. More water resistant than people imagine, but still not the top.

Poly (single part polyurethane varnish) isn't more water repellant than other varnishm, and I see no use for it on furniture--its better on floors, for which it was designed. Good varnishes with either alkyd or phenolic resins will be funtionally quite as durable on furniture, but look better, and have fewer potential problems in application. Varnish is the most durable finish available to consumers, and on that score is quite comparible to finishes on commercial furniture--a shade less than the best of the catalyzed finishes, but over kill even so.

Dust isn't a problem. It can easily be eliminated. Not from the air, or the initial surface, but after the finish has been well cured, a rubbing out process, either simple or full bore, can both eliminate dust and improve the finish quality. With some effort expended to finish the finish, every amateur and achieve finishes superior to almost all furniture store finishes.

[dan lemkin]

thanks for the advice on the finishes... What do you think of the sam maloof oil/varnish combos? with the oil/rub second stage it appears to have the finish qualities with waterproofing that would work for an end-table (yes?)

I got permission from my wife... and I am returning my portable makita planer, was going to get the:

G0634 12" Jointer / Planer w/ Spiral Cutterhead

I have read a bunch of threads which seem to speak well of it...

Am I moving in the right direction here? or just getting out of control? :D

-dan

[Neal Clayton]

I see that the g0593 is on sale tomorrow for $895. I will get that with the shop fox base.

I see there are two inserts for sale at the grizzly site... 10/ ~$24 AND 10/~$59

I could not find information about which machines the inserts are compatible?

Does anyone have experience getting these replacement inserts? Will the cheaper ones work with the G0593?

thanks.

they're all the same size, so either will work, but i wouldn't bother. they send you 5 spares with the machine, and you've got 4 edges on the ones in the head already, so you'll be good long while before you need new ones.

[david kramer]

I see that the g0593 is on sale tomorrow for $895. I will get that with the shop fox base.

I have no experience with shop fox bases, but there has been no end of complaints about them on this forum. Search for "shop fox" and you'll find the complaints as well as some suggested alternatives.

[dan lemkin]

Yes, I have also seen that while searching around since my post...

The recommended replacement was:

HTC HSG-341 Mobile Base for the 12" Grizzly jointer/plainer 0634 if I am not mistaken.

-d

[Mark Singer]

a wide joiner is very useful. Mine is 16" and I use the full width often. The spiral cutter head will probably not give you a finish ready board, if that is the case, what is the point...? You will need to hand finish anyway. Some woods really can't be planed such as zebra. It can't be hand planed either. So you are into hand finishing no matter what.

Try Bartleys Gel Varnish ... it is easy and the results are good.

I mostly use tung oil. Sometimes General's Seal A Cell and Arm R Seal

When you find a finish you like, stick with it

[Steve Schoene]

Jointer planer combo's are very efficient ways to get the wider jointer. I don't know the Griz--I have the Hammer jointer/planer combo.

Wax in/on a finish is mostly cosmetic. It does very little to enhance moisture resistance or durability. Basically it the Maloof is a oil/varnish mix, not much different than you could mix yourself. Whether you need the considerably greater waterproofing of a varnish depends on how things are used. If you spread coasters around, just about any finish works for a coffee table.

By the way, I should clarify something about tung oil. My comments apply for pure (or 100%) tung oil, while most of what you see around is Tung Oil Finish, which may have nothing to do with pure tung oil. For example, Formby's Tung Oil Finish, has no tung oil in the end product, it is a wiping varnish. Other tung oil finishes are mixes of oil (perhaps, but not necessarily having some of it tung oil) and varnish.

[David Keller NC]

"thanks for the advice on the finishes... What do you think of the sam maloof oil/varnish combos? with the oil/rub second stage it appears to have the finish qualities with waterproofing that would work for an end-table (yes?)"

For an end table, just about any finish you want, including BLO and wax, will do fine. The simple reason is that they're just not subject to the hard us that a kitchen table would get.

One thing I noted about your post is that you said you had dust issues. This is not something to be overlooked - it makes finishing with most polyurethanes and alkyd varnishes very frustrating, because they just don't dry fast enough to prevent getting a lot of dust nibs in the finish.

I've made quite a few stands for bonsai, and at the insistence of most people I've finished them with polyurethane. A stand like this is intended for a show, and must not have even the slightest hint of a defect - whether dust in the finish or brush or spray marks. To that end, I typically applied 12 coats, and used a heat gun and sunlight on a warm day to get the poly hard enough to sand down and rub out. Without the heat treatment, poly needs to cure for at least a week, preferably two, to be hard enough to sand out.

The final result was quite nice - a "piano" high-gloss finish that was absolutely flat. That required sanding with 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200 and 1500 grit stearated aluminum oxide sandpaper, followed by Minzerna's polishing compound and finally, buffing compound.

The result of this experience has led me to the following - I will not make another one of these with polyurethane, period. Shellac will be the only option offered, as it dries in about 45 seconds (so no dust issues), and sands/buffs with approximately 1/10th the amount of work of the polyurethane. Using shellac, I can get 10 coats on in less than a day. Doing that with poly required almost 5 working days, as you can't re-coat it until it's cured sufficiently (about 4 hours).

I actually tested the water resistance of a built-up shellac film, and so long as the shellac was mixed up fresh from flakes, it's remarkably water resistant - it took an overnight exposure to a sweating glass (with ice in it) to create a water ring. Even that dissapeared after another day of setting in the 35% humidity shop environment.

I think that at the end of the day, you'll find that shellac or laquer (if you've a sprayer) are your best bets for applying a film finish on an object in a shop with no/little dust control.